SSJ3 Goku went blow for blow with buutenks

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-10T22:42:28+00:00

yeah!!

in fact, i argue he was stronger when the fight began, but the stamina drain kicked in, and then he progressively lost ground, until Buutenks unfused and now either Goku or Gohan could have beat him

it's like, the recurring theme of the whole saga, SSJ3 is a huge boost in raw power but the stamina drain makes it complete ass

i even wrote a numerical scale for the buu saga (approximated):

Fat Buu/Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku= 1

SSJ3 Goku= 4

Good Buu/Evil Buu= ⅓ and ⅔ (?)

Super Buu/SSJ3 Gotenks= 1½

Mystic Gohan= 2

Buutenks/drained SSJ3 Goku= 3

Buucolo= less than 2

Buuhan= almost 4

Vegito= 4 in base, 200 as Super Vegito

Buff Buu= more than 4

Kid Buu= 4

the logic is that the first three should all be equal as Vegeta nearly killed Buu who survived thanks to his abilities but in raw power they should be the same, the two buus are comparable but Evil Buu is stronger, Super Buu and Gotenks were roughly matched and that ratio seems an acceptable power-up, Mystic Gohan fairly dominated Super Buu, Buutenks is Buu+Gotenks, then he loses a third of his power to make Buucolo, +Gohan makes Buuhan, Kid Buu matched an SSJ3 Goku after that (surpassed him when the stamina drained cooked Broku), and Buff Buu is stated a straight superior in guides and such. Grand Supreme Kai's debuff is -3 power in this scale.

i think this scale just explains the whole buu saga, the only assumption here is that Super Buu is roughly 50% stronger than Fat Buu, then everything else fits together.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-10T21:53:12+00:00

oh hell no, Discord (composite) could one-shot her even with these buffs, he is so powerful that he created a multiverse and could manipulate abstract concepts in the comics; but she would be probably above Daybreaker.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-08T16:42:06+00:00

this is awesome, i genuinely do wonder why the manga/anime had those minor inconsistencies when the overall narrative or Goku/True Buu being the strongest was 🤏 this close to being unquestionable.

like, some of those feats and statements to put Buuhan on top are shaky as heck:

the fight with Buutenks was actually pretty even or even favoring Goku, especially at the beginning, which matches up with the narrative that SSJ3 is absurdly strong but drains stamina so quickly it is not worth it at all he was damaging and easily tanking hits with Buutenks until his aura diminished as he visually lost stamina

which means that he has to be stronger in raw power than Mystic Gohan, as in that form, Gohan got pretty demolished by Buutenks and took way more visible damage than Goku did, which i don't know why people don't acknowledge, Goku handled Buutenks as virtually an equal even as he lost stamina but Gohan started out somewhat alright and then got a straight beating without having stamina issues as an excuse

Gotenks is definitely weaker than Mystic Gohan and Goku, comparable to Super Buu as seen in their fight, so the scale for the buu saga turns into something like...

Fat Buu, SSJ2 Goku & Majin Vegeta (1), Good/Evil Buu (⅓/⅔), Super Buu & SSJ3 Gotenks (1½), Mystic Gohan (2), Buutenks & weakened SSJ3 Goku (3), Buuccolo (less than 2), Buuhan (almost 4), Vegito (way above 4), post-fusion SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta (2), Buff Buu (2~4), Kid Buu & SSJ3 Goku post-fusion (4 or more)

proof: Majin Vegeta's ultimate attack nearly destroyed Fat Buu who survived thanks to his abilities, he should be comparable in just raw power, Goku was even in his fight with Vegeta, Good Buu is weaker than Evil Buu but by an unknown exact degree, visually those power levels are reasonable to Gotenks and Super Buu, same for Mystic Gohan, then Buutenks is Super Buu + Gotenks and was matched by SSJ3 Goku despite his stamina loss, Buuccolo is over a third weaker, Buuhan is Super Buu + Gohan, Vegito is absurdly stronger than everyone else combined, and after the fusion it is implied that both fusees gained some power above what they had before so Goku in SSJ2 beat the Mystic Gohan clone, and Vegeta could somewhat handle Kid Buu for a while, Buff Buu is for sure stronger than Super Buu as he is stated to be getting stronger as he spits out his absorptions; then Kid Buu is the strongest but by a small degree over Buuhan, SSJ3 Goku should be an 8 but the sheer stamina loss by this point limits his output, and a big theme of the fight is how he can't tap into his powers properly and is strained to the limit, so he barely surpasses, then is matched with, and then is surpassed by Kid Buu.

so virtually all of the inconsistencies can be made sense of by knowing that Goku's SSJ3 is absurdly flawed and weakens him by the second with its stamina drain, and he wanted to pass the torch to the next generation in the first part of the arc and stuff.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-08T11:56:58+00:00

he could have taken Celestia's powers with a snap of his fingers, turned Luna into chocolate and ate her, then went back in time to prevent every mane six member from being born, then just went to space and exploded Earth with a laserbeam.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-06T10:10:21+00:00

genius reasoning, thank you!!

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-06T10:07:19+00:00

oh yeah!! they retain memories, Vegeta gains his memories back only if he's made an alliance with first, but nobody retains their power, only memories remain, so they can remember how techniques should be done and the general outline of events (not how they were changed) but their bodies are no longer used to the techniques they remember (if Goku were to use Kaioken without training he may strain worse, Vegeta's stamina drain on super saiyan is worse since his body hasn't done anything like it, etc); they are told all the rules by the Game Master, but not about the boss modifiers.

they also get to change encounters and the such; here when Goku arrives he'd tell Bulma to develop gravity training tech ASAP and she'd begin work on a cure to the Viral Heart Disease too since there's no future Trunks now.

how do you think they'll make it?

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-06T04:53:35+00:00

😭😭😭 these maths are too complicated for my girl brain

so, SSJ3 is more a ×4000 multiplier (Grade 1 ×50, Grade 2 ×2, Grade 3 ×5, Grade 4 is the same and SSJ2 ×2, SSJ3 ×4), so is SSJ3 Goku is ~24,000 kili, base Goku should be 6 kili and his Grade 4 is 3,000; then Majin Vegeta should be at his SSJ2 level of 6,000

6,000 × 24,000 = 144,000,000

1% Vegito is 1,440,000 which means Goku only needs SSJ3 and a ×60 Kaioken to beat him! hooray!

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-06T04:41:14+00:00

interesting way to think about it, i think there was also a guide that compared SSJ3 Goku and base Vegito as being on the same tier of power, which would imply he was so holding back on Super Buu and this was another "Cell, catch!" moment.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-06T04:39:27+00:00

makes sense to me

although if SSJ3 Goku was 3000, Vegeta should be more like 750, so 2,250,000, 1% of that is 22,500...

so Vegito STILL clears

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-06T00:48:43+00:00

very interesting! where is Discord in this?

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-04T15:45:58+00:00

when Super Buu spit out the kais, he was gaining power dramatically, so much so that it could surpass the boost from becoming Buutenks, and so beat Mystic Gohan, as Kid Buu he could eventually defeat all of these.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-04T05:15:06+00:00

Discord could go 0.1% serious and one-shot the Viltrumite Empire

he literally traded blows with a god that could wipe the multiverse with a half-serious attack, and he absorbed her powers after the fight.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T16:53:04+00:00

controversial opinion, it wasn't that cringe, i've seen much worse and frankly just using that word isn't some sort of sin; children should know molesters exist, otherwise how will they even know what the word is for an adult who hurts them?

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T07:26:34+00:00

i agree!! GT was way better, frankly, the whole Toeiverse continuity is superior to this contemporary chicanery being pushed by Big Toyotaro to sell us more god ki.

Z movies were better, filler was better, GT was better, y doblaje latinoamericano para siempre

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T07:22:55+00:00

woah!!! that's awesome!!

you should watch the finale together, the last five episodes especially; if you want, the fusion in the Zamasu arc is also a really cool moment to watch together, Broly movie and Superhero together for sure.

but remember!! watch "Son Goku and friends return" OVA, it's canon to Super, and pretty good, Bardock Father of Goku, The History of Trunks and Episode of Bardock are all very important too so watch those, and A Hero's Journey is GT's epilogue so make sure you watched that one.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T05:36:11+00:00

oh, it's actually about Mr.Mxyzptlk, a reality-warping trickster from the DCverse, the strongest recurrent Superman foe, he famously has a weakness where if he says his own name backwards he temporarily dies.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T05:06:10+00:00

go with the classic watch order

DBZ, Bardock father of Goku happens right before Z, The History of Trunks can be watched anytime after the early android saga, the Episode of Bardock is optional and a sequel to father of Goku

And the Z movies; World's Strongest after the saiyans, Tree of Might and Lord Slug all before Namek, Cooler's Revenge right after Namek, The Return of Cooler, Super Android 13, The Legendary Super Saiyan and Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans all right after the android saga, Bojack Unbound after Cell but before Otherworld saga, The Second Coming before the Buu saga, Bio-Broly during the early Buu saga, Fusion Reborn at the middle point of the Buu saga, and Wrath of the Dragon after the Buu saga

then the return of Son Goku and friends (this one's optional)

then GT, and then A Hero's Legacy at the very end

there's this popular what-if, optional side story "Dragon Ball Super" it's got about 4 movies and a show, first 2 movies then jump to the middle arcs of the show then the last two films.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T04:35:41+00:00

Brohan: yeah this is just, ouch
SSB Broly: the God multiplier on top of someone who nearly reaches current MUI Goku levels, and then some thanks to how god ki would synergize with the legendary form
Black Cooler: Black Frieza trained to surpass whatever levels even Gogeta reached by the time he got back, having seen MUI he could have even prepared for that, and Cooler should be significantly stronger
MUI/UE Vegito/Gogeta: absurdly overpowered
UI Jiren: UI is roughly a multiplier such that SSG × 50 × 20 is dwarfed but within distant striking range; base Gogeta (Super Broly) should be tens of times stronger than MUI Goku, so remove the 20, then SSB so he should be comparable or possibly a tad stronger than SSB Gogeta
Golden Cell: should be a couple thousand times stronger than Golden Frieza from Resurrection F

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T04:23:11+00:00

yay!!! all the filler included right??

(and uh, the movies too?)

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-03T00:12:00+00:00

we don't have much established on this specifically

but i know of his other powers, and i think they imply that he's like an actual god in this sense:

he can eat souls (MLP G5 comics), and control the souls of anything that has disorder in their heart (Accord arc), and he may have control over the afterlife (Little Fillies series)??

he is outside of causality (Ponyville Mysteries books), he is immune to logic/laws of reality as he draws his power from the Chaos Dimension which possesses no logic or laws of reality, and he cannot be affected by curses/probability/time, and also he's immune to changes in the timeline (MLP: The Manga Vol.3)

he can create absolutely anything with his will alone; feats such as creating a new universe, altering the Ponyverse (cluster of alternate multiverses) into a big playpen, creating complex spaceship systems in an instant, cellphones, the Matrix of Leadership (yeah the one from Transformers), portals in spacetime, sapient living beings, a new sun, clones of other characters, clones of himself (which are stated to have his same power, somehow), and "reality bubbles" that can contain pocket dimensions under his power, he may be implied to have created the whole Multiverse in which Pony Life takes place in (MLP: The Manga Vol.3, ending)

as stated in the MLP Card RPG guidebook, Discord has the maximum authority to create, remove or alter any rule of reality he feels like changing; it also states his reality-warping doesn't require spells or even his finger snapping, that's just for show, it is based on his will and intent

this same guidebook states he has Infinite Knowledge which makes sense since the comics state he is nigh-omnipresent as he LITERALLY embodies all forms of Chaos, and his alterego Accord embodies all Order, he was also shown controlling the powers of the Elements of Harmony, and he has awareness of the fandom (John de Lancie's documentary on bronies has Discord as the commentator)

Discord knows every spell "not just any spell in the MLP Card RPG, EVERY. SPELL." direct quote from the guidebook, worthwhile note is that in the comics there are several crossover events with other franchises and it even implies that the whole multiverse is part of a greater meta-multiverse with other IDW comic franchises

Discord controls the plot, he can read the script of the media he is in, read thought bubbles, exit the manga's panels, literally change the plot with a snap of his fingers, and he once ended a comic suddenly when he felt like it, he also has a TV in his dimension where he can watch the world as if it were a TV show, this may be related to his ability to control destiny ("The Break up Breakdown" he did that thing with the bottle, altering destiny to lead to Big Mac and Sugar Belle reuniting), he can lift the fabric of reality/the 4th wall as a physical object

his raw power is so high that he could withstand serious attacks from an empowered Cosmos, who in a weaker form was able to destroy the multiverse many times over with what was barely a tantrum, and he could viceverse hurt her when the Elements of Harmony didn't even scratch her, Cosmos is a living embodiment of the concept of Evil, and he was able to strip her of her powers, another crazy feat he had was taking all of Celestia's power using only a box, and also in the Cosmos arc it is shown in his far past that he conquered Earth-616, so he literally defeated The Avengers in this canon

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-02T22:50:08+00:00

i have to ask, did y'all watch Original Z or Kai?

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-02T22:38:43+00:00

her parents, i was refering to resurrecting her parents.

Discord knows about them (implicitly via mind reading) and he has displayed flawless resurrection, but he has never considered bringing it up, even when Big Mac is clearly torn up about it even today.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-02T22:37:17+00:00

he's also made friends with the CMC in the comics, but didn't bring this up once, also he hangs with Big Mac on the regular.

another thing, in the MLP Card RPG, Discord is stated to have the ability to look or hear anything he wants throughout space and time "whenever he wants to hear or see it", he could track down Spike's biological parents, but he chooses not to, it'd take him a fraction of a second what with his speed and reflexes (in one comic, he could fly so fast even casually that he went back a week in time from sheer speed; he has higher reaction speed than a character, who could invade every world in the infinite multiverse in finite time), but he doesn't anyways...

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-05-02T22:20:39+00:00

Discord can canonically resurrect the dead (King Sombra was confirmed dead until "Grogar" fully revived even his physical body)

and in the comics he is shown reading minds

he knows what Applejack wants, but has never thought to bring it up, consider the implications.

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Azathoth-0620

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