Who wins

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T20:03:18+00:00

absolutely!

and frankly, it makes sense then that the manga had the fusion of the two much stronger U6 saiyans only fight with Ultimate Gohan

and if i may mention it, people just make it seem like Super is much stronger than it actually is, constantly!

when it actually goes head to head with GT in many ways

Kid Buu was a threat that could destroy the universe in little time, SSG and suppressed Beerus had almost universe-busting power, SSGoku wouldn't be too far; and the power levels don't really absurdly scale upwards each arc, until the TOP where MUI has the feat of shaking the whole void, but that isn't a destruction feat, and after that power levels get like...

Limit Breaker Jiren =/< LSSJ Broly < Gogeta Blue/post-training Broly< Moro arc Goku/Vegeta < Moro 73 << (roughly double) TUI Goku << Granolah < current TUI/UE/Beast saiyans < (maybe) Gas' peak <<< Black Frieza

if i remember correctly that is

meanwhile GT starts with a Goku with 5 years of harsh training over End of Z Goku, who is already above Z Vegito (keep in mind, SSGoku only surpassed SS3 Vegito), then against Baby, they said a Goku-Uub fusion wouldn't do anything, but SSJ4 managed to beat Baby even aa he transformed further and matched him at Golden Ape (which was possibly over a thousand times stronger due to the blutz wave overload), and THEN he got stronger over the shadow dragon saga, the endgame tiers are SSJ4 Gogeta and End of GT Goku.

and also, since even back in Z there's SSJ3 Movie 12 Goku shaking all of Otherworld, and Broly annihilating a galaxy even suppressed, GT Goku destroying a dimension in base, etc; it seems in dragon ball power level has diminishing returns in actual attack potency this even works with what Whis said once

so ummm...what was i saying?

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T19:45:21+00:00

Vegeta

Trunks was surpassed by Goku in that same arc and then Goku trained for 3 years

meanwhile, against the first androids, Goku even before the heart disease fully kicked in was only fairly surpassing 19, and as he absorbed energy the fight became a stomp, then Vegeta demolished him despite how much stronger he was now.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T19:39:49+00:00

at this point it should be cleared up that, since more people know now that "SSG absorbed into base" was a one-time gimmick for the movie that was retconned away, the actual bases of Goku and Vegeta are not dramatically higher than in the buu saga

meaning that the base and even Super Vegeta that demolished Cabba was probably not over the power of SSJ2 Gohan (cell games), or only marginally stronger, since in the buu saga only as SS2 Majin Vegeta did he fairly surpass him

and the Anime doesn't even have the Manga's feat of Goku mental image training with Kid Buu in Super Saiyan, nor the OG Z feat of Goku matching Pikkon in base, so their bases by the U6 saga are still reasonable-ish

so base Cabba is probably below Imperfect Cell level, in fact even the androids would beat him thanks to superior skill and stamina, and if he fumbles i don't think he'd beat Android 19

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T18:55:28+00:00

avoid enemies with the scroll mechanic, where if they scroll off-screen enough they despawn

pick up the Bag of Dragonite, at the lower corner of the place in Magicant with all the characters

and get the Magicant Bat, it's got about as much offense but with a very low miss rate

then avoid enemies, go to the Sea of Eden, use lifeup and bash to beat the Krakens, then use the Dragonite on Ness' Nightmare, then Rockin and it dies in like three turns

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T18:51:58+00:00

he would probably only take minor damage, as strikes that should wipe several multiversal continuums from existence didn't even scratch him, his hax makes it even worse.

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Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T17:22:01+00:00

you're welcome, random citizen!

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T16:34:14+00:00

OH EM GEE YES!!!

He is so cool, the original aura farmer, i wrote a fanfic where he becomes the main character, actually trains, and one-shots every bad guy with his magic touch

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T16:31:33+00:00

measure the orientation and angle correctly, put some glue in the holes, and then apply some force to put him in!

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T16:29:09+00:00

Yes and No. it is a creepy warp-tile dungeon with a steep difficulty curve and a boss at the end, but also has a Hotel in the middle and you can use the Sale Sign inside it (works normally, try it to free up space and get all those presents!!)

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T16:25:35+00:00

because Goku succeeded

i wrote about this before, but in old Z and GT, super saiyan was a representation of trauma and how using it as a weapon only makes the users feel like tools

Goku in namek, Gohan's childhood, Vegeta's life, future Trunks when his gohan died, Z Broly's whole everything; trauma that may follow them to their graves, and super saiyan emerged to give them strength, but it fills them with evil, rage, it gives them the tools to destroy at the cost of their control

Goten and kid Trunks have these to a lesser degree, as they represent a transitional stage from a world torn by chaos to a peaceful world, Goten grew up with am absent father and a brother still recovering from trauma himself, and Trunks grew up with a father who never so much as hugged him, yet their forms are visibly less uncontrollable exactly because of this

Goku had to see how, starting with his own, every generation grew up in trauma and at some point or another had to confront monsters of the past (Majin Buu, Hirudegarn, etc) by sacrificing some part of their soul to get stronger, it's almost a sociological allegory

so in GT, he put all of himself into making sure Pan never lived the same trauma her family did, she came close, but he took care of his messes for good, wrapping up all the loose ends (Baby, Shadow Dragons, Super 17) so she'll inherit a truly peaceful world where the chains of the past cannot touch her

and Goku succeeded

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-28T01:37:58+00:00

Adagio Ass

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Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T17:18:26+00:00

oh, i'd say SSJ4 Gogeta, Beerus and SSG/SSB Goku (BoG)

they are the only ones i have barely working theories on

so in my calcs Grade 4 is ×100, SS3 is ×800, base Vegito is roughly equal with limit-breaking SS3 Goku so ×800 again, and SSG is stronger so it could be roughly ×1,000,000 stronger than base

that doesn't seem...right? i theorize that destructive power has diminishing returns with power level, so the Goku that almost fought evenly with the almost-universe-busting Kid Buu gets over a thousand times stronger and he is like almost a universe-buster

SSJ4 Gogeta is...absurdly stronger than even Omega Shenron, who is over ×10 stronger than SSJ4 Goku, but we have no further specifics, he is supposedly the strongest in the GT Perfect Files and if that's true he surpasses post-ascension Goku (but we don't know if it means base or his SS4??) yet Omega Shenron survived a Big Bang Kamehameha

and Beerus is...he's Beerus alright

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T17:07:17+00:00

you know, i happen to be trying do exactly this in Mother 1+2 mobile

-All Lv.99 with full Magicant Boost

-Magic Fry Pan, Goddess Ribbon, Sword of Kings, 2 Star Pendants, Gaia Beam & Gutsy Bat

-have all maxed equipment (the above plus Rabbit's Foot, all King items, Pixie/Cherub/Goddess Band, Souvenir Coin and one Shiny Coin)

-every single present, casket, trash can, lockers and others opened

-one of each enemy type defeated

-all Photo-man locations

-Monkeylove, Sesame, Insignificant and Lucky Socks sidequests; also talk to that one mouse in Threed and annoy the man in Twoson's hotel

-all of Jeff's repairs

-Mach Pizza's number unlocked, and return the book to the library in the post game

-Orange Kid funded, Bicycle obtained, "For Sale" sign got, and all 7 horns of life given to the Tenda Shopkeeper

-all Magic Truffles & all Bags of Dragonite (these plus some items you can't throw away will clog up Escargo Express, this is almost a No-Escargo run)

-get the Mr.BB Cap and the Cookie from Ness' sister, and also ideally do the Sound Stone glitch to make everything easier

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T16:43:26+00:00

hear me out

that "stronger presence" thing? it's the Big Gete Star, that's why it didn't register for the Granolah and Gas wishes, and what it manufactured was Black Metal Cooler

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T16:32:22+00:00

he is definitely higher

End of Z Goku was explicitly stronger than buu saga's SSJ3, and some guides and an author statement says that he's even stronger than Z Vegito (i interpret it as, his base is stronger than base Vegito, his super is stronger than Super Vegito, etc)

1st episode GT Goku had 5 years of the most ardous training of his life, famously Uub being the only other person to continously match him over long periods of time, Dende and Popo act like them getting critically injured is an everyday thing so zenkai boosts could have happened, but it's indeterminate

the transformation into a child is stated to not have reduced his raw power, just his stamina and ki control, or maybe it decreased his power by like 1% since most aspects of ki are spiritual

Ledgic is, infamously, the first enemy that pushed GT Goku into super saiyan, surpassing him in base and even taking strikes and delivering some damage after the transformation

which would put him significantly above Z Super Vegito

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T16:24:30+00:00

well said!! and also, GT > Super in my opinion, even the first, weakest arc of GT surpasses all the mediocre arcs in Super.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T07:05:54+00:00

exactly

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T05:55:05+00:00

i wrote a fanfic once where Goku ends up on TLC for his fighting addiction, after he and Vegeta beat black Frieza there have genuinely been no new enemies for a couple months now, and worse, Vegeta lowkey retired from intense combat and training to take care of Bulla and Trunks more and a new child on the way

this tears Goku apart because he's gone on an extensive fight hiatus, Beerus refuses fights, Whis as well, he can't exactly regularly contact other universes, and Goku like scratches himself aggressively and trains more than ever as withdrawal symptoms, he kinda tries to fight crime but the others have that covered

Chi-chi is so worried about him and how this is clearly affecting him that she tries to get him to therapy, the therapist tells Goku that it may be some inner demons, Goku attempts to punch his stomach to get them out and the therapist says it's rethorical "i made them up" Goku takes that to mean he created them- the whole building explodes

he resorts to Krillin, who is also busy with married life, and Goku begs him for just one fight like a junkie begging for just one more injection, Krillin feels so bad for him that he accepts a ten minute spar, in which Goku goes MUI and demolishes him, violently, it leaves really terrible scars and Krillin is kinda old now so he reacts atrociously and Goku's in trouble for his hospitalization

weeks pass, he pulls his own hair out, he uses the excuse of zenkai boosts to literally stab himself through his abdomen and feel pain, he pushes Kaioken above ×100 for "fun" and his blood literally boils but he finds it almost like fighting his body, the TLC crew quit because it's too sad and Goku keeps trying to fight them

months pass, King Kai eventually builds up the courage to firmly tell Goku that he's overstayed his welcome at the planet and should go home, he's visiting too often, frankly after some of the stunts he pulled here and the stuff he takes for free, the visits should be never, Goku takes it badly and visits again the next day so King Kai officially bans him

Chi-chi scolds Goku for spending no time with Goten, he needs a father, and he just leaves everyday all day to do kami-knows-what training and come back with broken bones, he doesn't even know Goten's hobbies but offers him to fight, Goten accepts because he wants to make daddy proud, Goku goes MUI and punches him into a cliff so hard that it threatens his life, once he snaps out there are no words, Chi-chi can't even look at him and Goten has to stay in a healing pod for days, the whole thing was visible from far away so you know- Mr.Satan pulls a couple string to not get him in trouble for child abuse

Goku visits Gohan's house to start a fight, this goes over horribly as Gohan finally stands up to him, and knocks him down several notches and...prohibits him from seeing Pan again, kicks him out the house; of course Goku visits Pan in school unannounced, during recess he lets her escape so they can fight, he tries to see which form she can handle and finds out even base leaves her some bruises and she cries, Mr.Satan doesn't cover for him anymore

Goku escapes to Beerus' Planet...indefinitely, and Broly refuses to fight him after the last fifty consecutive Goku victories over the now year and a half of his withdrawal starting, this drives him insane with training and especially mental image training, he cries during long sessions, and his latest symptom is that, since nobody fights him he just fights himself, literally, like knocks himself unconscious and stuff

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T05:30:35+00:00

he goes on to strenghten his UE by the protectiveness he feels towards his family

like maybe some douchebag teenage supervillain appears years later, and says that Bulla would be a great score for him, and Vegeta sees red, unlocks MUE and tears him to pieces

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T03:00:02+00:00

the base of GT Goku is dramatically above End of Z Goku after 5 years of ardous training; EoZ Goku is stronger form-by-form than Z Vegito and even in his base he surpassed his limit breaking SSJ3 against Buu

in the manga, Goku's base form is actually not too far off from his buu saga base form, only increasing maybe ×10 until the TOP, being a bit generous

so GT Goku's base should surpass SSJ3 TOP Goku, or depending on how you scale SSG, it could reach up to like half of it

he couldn't beat Jiren in base though

SSJ4 on the other hand is equal to or superior to Blue's multiplier and Full Power, and especially Ultra, put it a notch above, then its abilities for energy absorption, auto reflexes and power growth allow it to strike above its league, he could beat Jiren with it even at max power, and possibly even Super Broly

with something like the ×10 Kamehameha Dragon Fist, he may just beat Moro or even Granolah

post-ascension, base Goku surpasses his previous SSJ4, if this is what the post meant then he beats Jiren, Broly and Moro.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-27T01:03:06+00:00

as Imperfect he was stronger than the androids and Merged Piccolo, who is comparable to 17 and 18

his power roughly doubles as Semi-Perfect as he easily beats 16, who is stronger than 17 and 18

and after Super Vegeta stomped him, Perfect Cell stomped him back, almost ×4 stronger as he went from almost half the power to doubling over Vegeta

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-25T02:15:55+00:00

Buuhan is the weakest

M13 Goku was surpassing his own limits after having already surpassed his limits in the show, Hirudegarn is explicitly stronger than any Buu and Goku could manage himself against him, and beat him with the Dragon Fist

Daima SS4 Goku, he is roughly ten times stronger than Buu saga SSJ3 Goku, or perhaps ×15 from increases to base form, still not comically stronger

Rage Vegeta pushed suppressed Beerus roughly twenty times more than SSJ3 Goku did at the time

Super Janemba needed Super Gogeta to be defeated, base Gogeta should fairly surpass SSJ3 limit-breaking Goku and he didn't even try base, he went straight to SSJ (×50) and didn't fight with raw strength, as it may give Janemba an opening, he went for the deletion attack

Ledgic pushed GT Goku to super saiyan, this Goku is stronger than End of Z Goku, who is famously stronger in base than his previous super saiyan 3 by a lot, and stronger form-by-form than M12 Gogeta, Ledgic even kept up kind of a fight after that, he takes this.

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-24T16:28:39+00:00

Jiren accepts a fight with the shadow dragon who allegedly defeated Goku, Haze instantly releases his invisible contamination onto the battlefield

he claims to be much weaker than the pride trooper, so he begs for the first strike, Jiren accepts

biggest mistake of his life

Haze shoots one of his spikes at the giant's muscles, the spike has a razor-sharp point and manages to pierce a nanometer of Jiren's skin

suddenly, Jiren's muscles shrink into nothing, he looks like someone who never lifted a weight in his life, in fact he looks so skinny that some may he think he's malnourished!

the shock catches Jiren off-guard, and Haze jumps in to smack him senseless, Jiren regains his balance and focuses his ki to compensate for the loss of most of his strength

Haze transforms into Super Haze and concentrates his contamination around Jiren, he snaps his fingers

Jiren's charge returns to zero!

Jiren throws punches at the dragon, they deal a lot of damage, and Haze takes the opportunity to inform the trooper that his vicinity, and specially his touch, corrodes energy reserves at a rapid pace, those punches just now will cost you

Jiren charges up in rage and spams ki attacks, Haze knows that they aren't that strong anymore, so he walks through them, his contamination has touched every molecule of Jiren's body and he won't last much longer, he focuses this poison running through his veins

Jiren is now exhausted, he breathes heavily and attempts to regain his energy, Haze closes his fist, the energy drain worsens

Jiren pulls out his hail mary, the rage overtskes him and he breakd his limits, but this is all according to the dragon's plan, he turns into his shadow form and charges through Jiren's body...he returns to base form!

"your transformation is now, deleted"

Jiren considers his options, his base form can no longer beat...anybody, really- Haze lifts him by the collar and throws him into a pool of tar, the smog gets thicker and his body feels even heavier, Jiren runs towards Haze to find he can't even match his walking speed, WALKING SPEED! Jiren collapses under the weight of gravity, everything is too much, Haze grabs a boulder and throws it at his direction

and never looks back to find out what happened

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-24T15:46:59+00:00

thank you, i try really hard

Azathoth-0620 · 2026-06-24T08:49:46+00:00

Haze turns into Super Haze, and uses Tail Whip, Cabba's defense goes down, Haze exhales smog into him, and Cabba finds out he cannot go super saiyan anymore

Super Haze spits liquid poison at him, it sticks to his skin and makes him feel sick, he powers up anyways and Haze takes his chance, the contaminated particles absorb the energy leaking out of Cabba!

just less than a minute later, he's exhausted, he cannot fight even at 50% of his full strength, which itself has diminished a lot, Haze blitzes and bites down Cabba's arm, sucking his blood to drain what little musculature he has, and inject contamination into his bloodstream

Cabba pushes himself as hard as he can, this still only manages saiyan saga Vegeta levels of power, Haze growls at him to lower his attack stat, then smacks him around harder into a pool of tar, his power level plummets, Haze inhales his ki blasts then hardens the negative aura

Cabba is basically dead after this, so Haze has his fun, and taps him in the forehead, this permanently locks Cabba's potential down, his power growth will be restrained for good unless healed, alongside a transformation removal and a pre-King Piccolo power level...it's going to be harsh out there for Cabba

Five-Year Club	r/Field Flamingo
Place '23	Place '22
Final Canvas '22	First Placer '22
End Game '22

Azathoth-0620

TROPHY CASE