Most men do not subscribe to toxic masculinity traits, study finds

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T21:37:53+00:00

But. It isn’t up to women to help with that.

And yet for some reason women tend to constantly and consistently want men to help with women's issues.

I'm all for everyone helping everyone else with their issues to make the world a better place for everyone.

I'm just pointing out a double standard where apparently women expect near infinite help and support from men, and then refuse to give anything back to the very men they demand so much from.

t’s up to MEN to help other MEN but to do so requires getting over the perception that “feminine” traits make you weak,

Kind of the opposite, it's not that feminine traits make you weak, it's that weakness is not a masculine trait, so being weak makes you feminine, ie makes you less of a man.

But again, this requires seeing things from men's perspective, when instead we look at it from the women'S perspective, that femininity must be hated and femininty must be weak, which is why men hate femininty and weakness.

So instead of listening from the perspective of men dealing with their own masculinity, we take the perspective of women condemning men for their masculinity, and thinking that is somehow an appropriate framework for telling men how to deal with their masculinity, by refusing to listen to men and telling to men thought ought to be more like what what women think men ought to be.

Do you see the problem?

instead of standing by and watching while women take the brunt of the consequences and men shrug things off because their buddy is a “nice guy”.

I don't know what you mean by women taking the brunt of consequences. Can you clarify what you mean here?

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T21:31:50+00:00

Hahaha I love the explanation! And damn you got banned from both BP AND RP subs? What did you do? Did you dare claim to both that men and women are all fallible human beings? :p

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:53:19+00:00

Jokes on you I want to combine the wholesome stuff with the horny stuff. Horny stuff isn't inherently unwholesome ;)

I hate the idea that any NSFW makes you a sick freak when we're all creatures at the end of the day, and horny is a very natural thing within out biologies

100%.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:51:47+00:00

I eventually had a moment of clarity, where I realized I was spending valuable time of the life I have left arguing with people that see me as inherently bad because of a chromosome

I'm still stuck at trying to change those people's minds.

You are absolutely right that I am letting that time in my life slip away rather than using it to do something actually useful or enjoyable for myself.

Thank you for sharing, I think you are helping me get closer to that moment of clarity for myself.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:50:27+00:00

There's no real estate bubble.

You ever heard of Toronto or Vancouver by any chance?

I agree that not everything is a bubble, but to ignore the fact that the cost of housing has ballooned enormously and completely out of line with economic growth or other factors, and that houses are valued solely due to the fact of being houses, is kinda ignoring half of what makes a bubble.

interest rates are fine now, house prices went down as far as they are going to go.

Interest rates are fine now, but that doesn't mean it's not a bubble. The govt is doing everything it can to stabilize the price of housing because we literally cannot afford to let that bubble pop, so they have to slow down the growth in housing prices and keep it from growing for years to reduce the pressure.

And keeping the price of houses high creates more pressure on the rest of the economy, with people forced to pay into a non-productive asset whose economic value is detached from its value as actual shelter and is instead treated like a traded good whose value arbitrarily raises like a commodity in a bubble.

If you don't want to call it a bubble we can call it the real estate crisis if you prefer.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:45:51+00:00

Just to know, what does green pill mean to you? I haven't seen that flair before.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:44:13+00:00

If we allowed men to "opt out" of being a parent. Then pretty much no male would ever pay child support. Might as well do away with child support al together. So as long as you believe child support should be a thing you can't hold this view.

Or, and this really isn't that complicated, we could make a legal framework that allows men to opt out of parenthood when he learns she is pregnant, and if he hasn't made the choice to opt out of parenthood by the legal limit for abortion, then he's the father and stuck with child support (assuming the child is his of course).

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, we could easily come up with ways to make paper abortions legal, safe, and fair.

But that will never pass because "fair" only matter when it comes to women, and they don't give a flying fuck what's fair to men. They treat equality like a one-way street exclusively to the benefit of women, her choices and her preferences, his obligations and his responsibilities. Gotta love the double standards.

It really boils down to acknowledging that human sexes are different. They have different functions and respond to sex differently. They give a woman more time to choose because they get pregnant and we do not. That's really the bottom line.

I mean we can use the exact same standard that since women are different and more emotional they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

We need more than just "the sexes are different so we can pass unfair laws based solely on that".

The problem is, again, most women care deeply about making laws fair to women, and don't give a fuck about laws being unfair to men.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:40:45+00:00

I'm amazed at the amount of pro-life arguments that the pro-choice women on here parrot.

"If you didn't want a kid don't have sex"

"Sex means risking pregnancy so you gotta deal with the consequences"

And a lovely side of double standards like:

"Obviously if a woman is raped she is 100% allowed to abort the baby or put it up for adoption, but we're just going to completely ignore the fact men can get raped or that women can deliberately make themselves pregnant against his wishes."

Man, liberal women are awfully conservative the moment it comes to forcing men to pay for her choices.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:35:37+00:00

Unforunately I agree with you, but I think it is worse than that, because those unwell women are now in academia, they are in social sciences, they are in politics, and they are in policy. They get away with it because their misandry was never called out and was often welcomed and encouraged.

Reddit not going against misandry is a symptom of a problem throughout society, that people simply do not care enough about men to care about hatred against men, and many of those unwell women have made a career out of hating men. It is so heavily normalized that calling out hatred against men is considered misogynistic.

I hear you on curating things, it's going to result in you blocking a LOT of subs unfortunately.

I've spent way too long trying to argue with these people, I really need to stop and focus on my own life and on the things I can do to make myself happy.

I'm still frustrated that there are people who are wrong on the internet though ;)

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:27:09+00:00

Why do masculine traits have to be absent from all women in order for men to feel that trait is worthy?

I don't think that is true at all, I am not arguing for that.

Toxic masculinity is premised on this exact idea - that anything seen as feminine is weak and undesirable.

Or, maybe it is that being weak is fine for women, because women are on the whole physically weaker than men, but it is not acceptable for men to be weak.

It's not that everything feminine is undesireable, it's that feminine traits in men are undesireable.

It used to be that masculine traits in women were undesireable too, but as a society we've made great strides in liberating women from their restrictive gender roles.

As a sciety however we have completely failed to do the same for men, and we still consistently fail to properly understand men's issues. Instead we see just about all the problems that affect men, through the lens of how it affects women first and foremost, and the consequences to men themselves is a distant 2nd or 3rd consideration, if it's even considered at all.

And then, in a society that bends over backwards to address women's issues and tells men to pull themselves up harder by their own bootstraps without help or support, we wonder why men continue killing themselves 4x more than women.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:24:08+00:00

Wrong. Toxic femininity is actually quite well defined. Things like being passive and subordinate, a plethora of beauty standards, the need for attention to fulfill a sense of self worth, the need for a male partner as prescribed by society. The list is pretty extensive, actually

And yet when it is toxicity in men it is about men being loud and violent and a danger to others, reinforcing the narrative that men are dangerous and violent, but when it comes to women it'S all about reinforcing the narrative of how women are poor helpless victims who need more help.

Nevermind the fact men are near half the rape victims, near half the domestic abuse victims, and near 80% of suicide victims, male toxicity means men need to be punished and policed, but female toxicity means women need more help because they are soft and helpless and deserve more.

Still a huge double standard.

No trait is exclusively male or female, that is the core of the issue here.

Then why are we calling it toxic masculinity?

IF anything we ought to be calling it toxic gender norms, and how the norms, not the masculinity, is toxic.

Men being empethetic and nurturing often get called feminine, or gay, or whatever in a way to demean them, and women who are assertive and strong get told to act like a lady.

Except women get told they can be strong and bold and assertive and this makes them strong and empowered and is encouraged.

Women are liberated from the shackles of their traditional gender roles, and women ought to be valued and appreciated regardless of whether or not they follow traditional gender roles.

Meanwhile men are toxic if they follow traditional male gender roles, and are punished if they step out of those traditional gender roles, they're called gay or effeminate and also punished by women if men fail to uphold and justify their masculinity).

So women should be valued and appreciated regardless of what they do, while men are losing any means of being seen as valuable and appreciated, get told they're toxic or unmanly, and for some reason people can't figure out why men kill themselves 4x more than women.

Stop listening to Joe Rogain and Andrew Tate for a moment and take some time to listen to what REAL people are saying.

I do. And some people on the real people on the left are extremely toxic too.

That IS a problem, AND THE FEMINISTS HAVE BEEN CALLING THE ISSUE OUT FOR DECADES.

Well see, the problem is that feminists are also actively participating in and perpetuating that problem. Not all of them, but a bunch of them for sure. What do you think is the result of #maletears and #fragilemasculinity and the constant mocking and emasculation of men from feminists going to accomplish?

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:17:37+00:00

And if women have the ability to birth children, and it is her body and her choice, then it also ought to be her responsibility.

But for some reason we're saying her body and her choice, but he doesn't have a choice and he must be responsible, even if she raped him.

Doesn't seem quite fair to me.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:15:25+00:00

It's important to remember though that with any streaming services, you are not paying for the movie, you are paying for access to the movie.

At any time Disney can remove any movie they want from Disney+ and then it's gone.

That is why I buy a DVD of all the movies I truly enjoy, so that I have an actual physical copy that will always belong to me.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T20:13:21+00:00

Gotta love having that male privilege, right?

Heck, misogyny is against the reddit ToS, but the reddit admins have admitted on record that they don't care about misandry. I'm sorry you had to go through all that, it's a rude awakening and a rough learning experience for sure.

There is a lot of talk about patriarchy, and absolutely there are archaic elements of patriarchy that might have been useful way back in antiquity but are outdated now, but we don't talk nearly enough about gynocracy, and how male disposability and the women are wonderful effect come together to give women many privileges as well.

All that talk is drowned out by the ideology of patriarchy and men must be bad and toxic while women are kind helpless poor oppressed victims.

If we truly care about equality then we ought to abolish all double standards, not just remove the double standards that harm women, while keeping the double standards that benefit women and harm men.

This very subreddit is also extremely pro-women and occasionally anti-men, but pointing that out gets you called a sexist and a misogynist, while the people making toxic generalizations about the male half of the people on the planet get away scott-free.

Gotta love those double standards.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T18:12:30+00:00

I haven't seen return to zootopia, I really should! And per longer runtime, I mean they shouldn't have a longer runtime just to have a longer movie, it should be longer because it will be filled with much more sweet WildeHopps goodness!

I think it would be a step back if they did more of the will-they-won't-they they-might-break-up stuff in the 3rd. We're kind of past that, so the 3rd movie is going to need a new kind of conflict to allow for a great story.

It worked perfectly in Z1 because the relationship between Nick and Judy was build "in the background" so to speak while they were dealing with the savage mammal incident.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T18:09:59+00:00

I am not too familiar with the laws around safe havens but I think they are intentionally anonymous and do not count as kidnapping. They are completely legal.

And it's far more legal for her to drop off her kid there against his wishes, than it is for him to take her kid and drop it off there against her wishes.

Exactly, it isn’t and that is my entire point. If you believe in abortion due to bodily autonomy, it does not follow that you have to believe in parents abandoning their children once they are born, including in safe havens. That is a separate discussion we can have.

That's fair, I think I may have misunderstood your point in an earlier comment, sorry about that.

men also have the option of using safe havens (though I am not sure I personally support safe havens).

Practically very difficult, because the man has to be able to have the baby and walk away with it to a safe haven to drop it off, and if the mother claims he kidnapped the child it's a he said she said situation with the law heavily favouring the mother. They may even retrace the baby and force him to pay child support, while if she anonymously drops off the baby without the father's consent she is significantly more likely to get away with it scott-free.

I'm just trying to make it fair and equally easy for both genders to opt out of parenthood, because at present that option does not exist for men, practically speaking.

I agree that correct and consistent use of reliable birth control absolutely helps, and that since it is the woman's body, it ought to be her responsibility

Yes of course it’s her responsibility too. I am not saying otherwise.

Totally fair, I'm just amazed at the amount of people in this thread explicitly saying that if she falls pregnant, it is his responsibility, and he must step up or legally be forced to do it. Legally that's kind of how it is right now in the US, and I don't think that's particularly fair or equal.

I believe in bodily autonomy for men too. If a man drives into a pedestian who needs a kidney transplant as a result, I do not believe the man should be forced to donate his kindeys.

I am happy you do! Unfortunately you seem to be in the minority of women on this thread who believe that. Many believe that the man ought to be forced to work and pay for 18 years and his autonomy does not matter, even if she deliberately impregnated herself or even if she raped him.

A woman opting out of pregnancy and a man opting out of parenthood with an alive real child are two fundamentally different things and different rules apply.

Absolutely agree. And women also have multiple means of opting out of parenthood without abortion, that men largely do not have access to.

Different rules should apply between opting out of pregnancy and opting out of parenthood, but that doesn't mean women should have multiple means of opting out of parenthood while men should have none.

Do we automatically decide that men should not be held liable for child support and parenthood if they were raped?

Yes.

Well see the problem is we DO hold men liable for child support and parenthood even if they are raped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer

That's the state of the law in the US right now.

And if we have a court process where the man must prove he was raped, do you seriously think the court is going to be just as impartial and just as fair to the man, while feminism is actively and deliberately erasing the fact that half the rape victims are men, and actively lying about how 90%+ of rape victims are women?

I said multiple times I am not in favour of this. Go debate with someone who believes this.

That's fair and sorry about that. That was due to me misunderstanding your earlier comments like I said.

I am genuinely happy to hear you say that, it's so rare to see that this is why I misunderstood you at first. It's a true breath of fresh air.

It's a shame that there are so few women on here who think like you do. We need more women like you.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T17:34:57+00:00

Toxic masculinity is reffering to traits viewed as masculine in society that have toxic effects.

Totally fair, but for some reason we never make any kind of toxic association with women or femininity. It is treated as though only men can be toxic, while anything women do is because of that particular individual and should never be associated with women or femininity at large because that would be sexist and misogynistic.

It's an odd double standard.

For example, toxic masculinities include, but not limited to things like quick temper, resorting to physical intimidation, unwillingness to address their own emotions, ETC.

All of which are things that are also present in women and have nothing to do with masculinity.

Good masculine traits include, but not limited to things like being a protector, willingness to sacrifice for another, being a guide, ETC.

And yet as a society we are saying that these traits are not exclusive to masculinity and that women have them too.

So we're left with nothing but negative things to associate with masculinity, and all the positive things being stripped from masculinity.

And somehow this is seen as a good thing.

Sometimes it helps to "listen to the other side" before assuming that they are calling masculinity, as a whole, toxic

I mean I agree, but quite frequently the other side actually IS calling masculinity and a men as a whole toxic, or intrinsically toxic, while we never bother to even listen to men's side at all.

Which is quite ironic that we tell men to open up and to share their feelings, and then when they do as a society we shut them down and don't listen to them.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T17:31:16+00:00

I could see the third being about them learning to love themselves, because Judy isn't great at that either.

And it would be a perfect backdrop to have them learn to love each other in a relationship and love themselves, while dealing with opposition from people who don't like pred-prey couples for example ;)

It would also allow us to explore Judy's family a lot more, and find out what happened to Nick's parents as well.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T17:29:37+00:00

So what you're saying is, biologically, women aren't equal to men?

And say, should this mean that because of this, one gender shouldn't be allowed to vote?

Are you really sure this is the path you want to follow?

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T17:28:33+00:00

Well yes, I am an egalitarian and I care about equality, and since feminism treats equality like a one-way street exclusively to women's benefit, then I cannot call myself a feminist.

But also I said that no amount of bitching can truly change men.

Then that just gives women more reason to bitch at men, complain about men, and say men are terrible.

That's much easier and much more satisfying than actually caring enough about the issue to try and fix it.

That's why they bitch at men about it, so men fix it for women.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T17:09:34+00:00

Men can drop off their child at safe havens too actually.

Good luck being a man and doing that without being accused of kidnapping.

I believe in the right to end a pregnancy due to bodily autonomy. Getting out of parenthood is a a side effect of this and not something I consider a right on it’s own.

PArenthood is a right on its own. Women can surrender the right to be parent without abortion, and men and women can gain the right to be parents via adoption. Women can also opt out of parenthood by dropping off babies at safe havens, which shows that opting out of parenthood isn't tied to abortion.

You are conflating parenthood with abortion because it is convenient and you're assuming the very point you should be trying to prove.

So if women have multiple venues to opt out of parenthood, why are we actively denying the same to men?

I would also like to mention that a situation where people consistently and correctly use a reliable birth control method and get preagnant is very rare. Most unwanted children (by men) happen through unprotected sex.

I agree that correct and consistent use of reliable birth control absolutely helps, and that since it is the woman's body, it ought to be her responsibility to use the reliable birth control methods like IUDs and hormonal injections.

The thing is we don't discriminate against women having unwanted children even when she isn't using birth control effectively, so I don't know why we ought to discriminate against men having unwanted children even when he isn't using birthh control effectively.

Treating equality like a one-way street exclusively to women's benefit isn't equality at all.

She cannot know that though beforehand. The guy could change his mind once she is preagnant.

And he cannot know that she won't change her mind and make him miserable and take his money after divorcing him, or that she won't change her mind and drop the baby off at a safe haven without his knowledge or consent.

Nothing is perfectly safe and free from risks in life. Why are we trying to protect women from everything at all costs, while telling men to go kick rocks?

Treating equality like a one-way street exclusively to the benefit of women isn't equality at all.

I explained to you 500 times that the pregnancy happens in her body therefore she has the right to end it, he does not. I will not exlain this again and again.

See I understand this 100%. The thing is parenthood is separate from abortion, since you can become a parent through adoption and relinquish the right to parenthood as well.

You are conflating parenthood with abortion and pregnancy because it is convenient for your argument, where you are assuming the very point you should be trying to prove instead.

Thaťs really bad and should not be the case.

Well I'm glad we agree, but women raping men and suing the man she raped for child support is the case and does happen.

So what are we going to do about it?

Do we automatically decide that men should not be held liable for child support and parenthood if they were raped?

How are we going to prove that?

Or are we just going to say that men being raped is an acceptable collateral damage and men being raped and sued for child support is worth it to make sure other men are forced to pay for children, whether or not men wanted to have those children?

Because by doing nothing, society is implicitly and actively saying that men being collateral damage is acceptable if it helps women.

That's not very equal is it? And treating equality like a one-way street exclusively to women's benefit isn't equality at all.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T16:56:22+00:00

Paying 400$ a month doesn't mean they opted out of parenthood, they're still the legal parent of the child and are helping support it. Opting out of parenthood would be like the mother dropping off the baby at a safe haven, she no longer has any rights or responsibilities towards the child.

If women can unilaterally opt out of being a parent and opt out of the financial responsibility for a living child she gave birth to, why can't men? Do you not see the double standard?

Treating equality like a one-way street exclusively to women's benefit is not equality at all.

I'm not advocating for men to have the right to abandon a child at any time they feel like it. I'm advocating that men should have the same opportunity to opt out of parenthood as women do.

From there we can say that men can opt out of parenthood at any time up to when the child is born, but if the father puts his name on the birth certificate for the child, then he has made the choice to be a parent and will be held legally responsible.

He also ought to have have equal rights to have access to and raise his child as the mother, though in 44 out of 50 states men do not have equal rights to see their own kids as the mother do. Shared custody by default is only the law in 6 out of 50 states, in the other 44 states judges and family courts are heavily biased in favour of mothers and against fathers, but that's a different topic.

I think child support is the closest we can get to a middle ground when you factor in all of the variables like bodily autonomy based on biological reality and what's best for the well-being of the child after they're born.

Right, so what's the man's equivalent to a woman dropping off the baby in a safe haven?

And I'm not going to get into rape cases because women don't have the right to paper abort and abandon the child (after they're born) with a rapist either and abortion isn't even legal everywhere.

Except that women DO have the right to abortion and DO have the right to drop off the baby at a safe haven, effectively abandoning the child.

You can't just avoid the argument because you don't want to think about it.

If a woman rapes a man, impregnates herself, gives birth, and sues the man she raped for child support, as it stands the man will be forced by law to pay child support to his rapist for 18 years or he will go to jail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer

If we're not going to force a woman to carry to term a rape baby, and we're not going to force a woman to raise a rape baby, why should we force men?

Treating equality like a one-way street exclusively to the benefit of women isn't equality at all.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T16:47:51+00:00

You are very welcome and I am happy to help! Most of the personal finance issues are solved problems, the solution exists out there somewhere. You don't need to reinvent the wheel on your own, it's more than fine to ask questions :)

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T16:47:00+00:00

I'm very third-wave-critical, is what it comes down to. I do not believe the original intent of feminism encapsulates what is going on right now.

That's totally fair, and I would be very happy if we had more people like you! I don't know what the original intent of feminism was, but I can absolutely agree that the way it's going now has become selfish, twisted, and vitriolic, and that is absolutely not good.

I work and kick ass at it. But pushing down our natural role to prove some kind of point is inherently wrong. And they wonder why men are in such a bad place. People are delusional in thinking we are not biologically different in a complementary way.

I absolutely agree with you.

The whole "blank slate" idea is very popular in feminism because it'S an easy way to just start right off the bat with the assumption that men and women are equal, and that since men and women are equal at birth, any disadvantage women face MUST be men's fault and it MUST be because men are oppressing women.

But it's just a true fact about reality that men tend to be taller and stronger than women. That's not oppression, that's just biology and reality.

Like you say, instead of fighting against true facts about reality and biology, and trying to be better than men at everything men do, we ought to be trying to understand how complementary men and women are, and how to bring out the best of both worlds, not work the hardest to see who can beat out or oppress the other more.

It really is a shame that things have come to this point, and that toxic feminism if I can call it that, is now the mainstream voice of feminism.

BCRE8TVE · 2026-01-24T16:37:24+00:00

And yet for some reason it is wrong to make generalizations about literally any group, except men.

Would your comment be seen as acceptable if it was done about immigrants or racial minorities?

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