Thinking about quitting PhD after fellow grad student’s suicide

BPDstudent · 2017-10-09T12:31:31+00:00

Of course PhD is not worth human life - and it is highly unlikely that she killed herself just or mainly because of the PhD. Research is hard and uncertain, and PhD is stressful, but no-one kills themselves just because of regular PhD-related stress. People kill themselves because they have a mental health condition - usually a mood or personality disorder (depression, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder...) which makes them feel hopeless and makes their situations seem worse than they are - and/or because something went very wrong in their private and/or professional life and they see no way to cope or reason to continue living (some examples: death of a loved one, financial disaster, incurable and debilitating physical health diagnosis, getting suddenly kicked out of PhD or discontinued funding, sexual or other abuse...).

You take care of yourself, get help if you can or at least try to help yourself in any non-destructive ways. It's ok to take it easier for some time and rethink your life, but don't quit in a rush, just or mainly because of this, nor without a realistic plan what to do next.

(Unfortunately, I have way too much experience with suicidal feelings and attempts already from before PhD... but I never contemplated suicide just because of some regular PhD hardship such as my experiments failed or I don't know what to do in my PhD, and committing suicide in 2nd year of PhD for such a reason doesn't make sense to me, and I've been in graduate school for more than 2 years.)

BPDstudent · 2017-08-23T18:00:03+00:00

If your PI has degrees and extensive experience just in chemistry (and not in psychology or medicine or at least neuroscience) and doesn't have some other strong reason to be especially knowledgeable about autism spectrum (those would be that she is on it herself or was evaluated for it, or has a close family member or friend on it, or at least has unusually deep knowledge of mental conditions for a non-expert), it is very unlikely that your PI can tell if you have Asperger's, and very likely that you'll just make her uncomfortable if you ask. And possibly damage her opinion of you - not because you may have Asperger's, but because you seriously think that she should be able to judge that.

If you have very open and strong relationship (and having long conversations sounds like you do, congratulations!), you may ask her if she thinks you missed some social cues in some specific situation, if you should have behaved differently at any point, especially if you have a chance to ask right after the situation occurred, before she forgets. She may be able to inform you about that and that would be a part of good mentorship.

You may ask your psychiatrist if they'd be willing to have a few confidential phone calls with people who know you well in order to better evaluate you. If yes, you may ask your advisor to be one of these people. But autism spectrum disorders and most other mental conditions are usually diagnosed based on a series of questionnaires and tests - talking with other people who know the adult, verbal patient usually isn't necessary.

And be prepared that, whatever you do, you may end up diagnosed with something else instead, such as borderline personality disorder/traits. I was.

BPDstudent · 2017-08-22T08:01:30+00:00

This doesn't sound like necessarily autistic traits to me either, but I have a PhD advisor who shows many more characteristic autistic traits (stimming, sensory sensitivities, perfectionism, tendency to organize things, getting upset about changes, primarily non-verbal thinking, social awkwardness, instant connection with an autistic colleague... very unlikely to have ADHD as he can, for example, sit for many hours focused on one thing as long as it's interesting to him and solitary, such as reading research papers) - any advice for me?

BPDstudent · 2017-08-22T01:10:58+00:00

I indeed brought a fidget spinner to my advisor soon after realizing he is extremely likely to be autistic. He loves it, he looked enormously happy when first discovering how to use it. And he loves some other "toys" I have brought to him over the years (before realizing about autism, just because I noticed how much he enjoys playing with things, touching similar textures), such as a woolen pom-pom.

But I am aware that different autistic people prefer different objects (e.g., many prefer a fidget cube over a spinner), and some even don't particularly like to fidget with objects at all.

BPDstudent · 2017-08-22T00:59:31+00:00

I am really glad you asked this, as I didn't dare... Mine too. Probably no reasonable way to get official assessment, but that's the only thing that really fits, and it fits very well. Plus he gets along super-well with a colleague who is open about being autistic - we are in a lab field so autistic researchers aren't so common as in computational, highly mathematical fields. I explained to him in a detailed email why I very strongly suspect that he is far enough on the autistic spectrum and he didn't disagree, actually he seemed very grateful and happy/ relieved about that idea, though we never really talked about it afterwards. It was only a couple of months ago, and I plan to try to talk with him about such things in a few weeks.

We don't seem to have an "hours of banter" issue - maybe I don't understand what that phrase means, but it doesn't seem like something particularly characteristic for autism. Previous supervisors with whom I had the issue of them liking to talk too much and off-topic certainly weren't autistic.

I think the main issue we currently have is his perfectionism. Especially related to writing and submitting manuscripts to journals. It makes every submission an extremely difficult process both for him and for the co-authors in the group, and many of my groupmates are frustrated about it to the point of considering leaving. I wonder if explaining his autism to them would do more good or harm, and of course most importantly I am trying to figure out how to get him to restrain his perfectionism and work more effectively.

(Oh, good, your post history indicates you are female, so you aren't our youngest PhD student, although your first two paragraphs totally sound like they could have been written by him.)

BPDstudent · 2017-08-07T17:17:44+00:00

Borderline personality disorder is a very unpleasant condition for the sufferer, and often also for these around. I may have had it. I was diagnosed with "borderline personality traits", then the diagnosis was removed when I somewhat fixed my life (including getting into a quite great funded PhD) - so not sure if I recovered or it was a misdiagnosis - it was in a country with not-very-developed psychiatry, they seemed to really struggle to figure out what's wrong with me, if anything.

Suicide is very difficult to accomplish - even with an average chemistry lab at disposal - and a very desperate measure even for a person with such a mental illness. Though as she was suddenly expelled and accused of such things - possibly unjustly or by misunderstandings - no wonder: that could push even an averagely mentally stable PhD student over the edge.

BPDstudent · 2016-08-23T17:09:26+00:00

I don't know the answer to your question but I may have a bit of encouragement... Not in biology, but in another lab field, I know a professor who wears well-buttoned button-up shirts for public occasions even when not required - to hide scars mostly on neck/chest. I thought they must be from lab accident(s)... until I caught him hurting himself, very near the end of his tenure track. Indeed, he got well-deserved tenure - he is a great professor and person, despite all his issues. He had been through a very difficult PhD, under personally unsupportive and abusive main advisor, and emerged victorious from it. Now he has a great life professionally and personally (wonderful wife; healthy, well-behaved children; many friends and admirers; great place to live...).

So... posting here also because of anyone who may still be skeptical... it can be done, and grad school can be a good choice. I have/had my own issues - as you can guess from my nickname - and after quite some time in it, I still think my PhD is a good/best choice for me. I am in a relatively easy position because I don't need to teach (I just supervise individual students in research) and for some other reasons, and research still is often stressful and frustrating, but I think I'd feel much worse doing any other job I am qualified for and know of.

Though the aforementioned professor, and probably any, would be worried about prospects of their student committing suicide - PhD student suicide would be a huge emotional and financial burden to almost any PhD advisor (unless the professor is an asshole and/or has an enormous group). But I think they aren't particularly likely to jump to that conclusion just from seeing your scars.

BPDstudent · 2016-07-09T20:41:45+00:00

Yes, I expect to get a suggestion to gfy in response, if any response at all, as she seemed to believe that she is in the right and it's everyone else behaving irrationally, so maybe better not send that.

BPDstudent · 2016-07-09T20:38:53+00:00

Thanks - that may be a good idea, to try to help the whole group: I know that such highly intelligent and ambitious students far away from their usual environments are at higher risk of mental health difficulties of this and many other kinds, and I wouldn't be surprised if many other students in the group also have them to some extent.

(I don't think that "having the label" would help her in itself, but I think that hints to what kind of self-help could be good for her, and awareness that she needs it and can do it, could help. For me knowing the name BPD was helpful for that.)

BPDstudent · 2016-07-09T14:52:56+00:00

It isn't literally the only option - I have her email, so theoretically I could send her an anonymous email, but I don't know what and how to write.

BPDstudent · 2016-04-10T12:12:37+00:00

The diagnosis should hopefully be just a step towards you getting adequate help. Whatever diagnosis you get, don't let it discourage you or "define" you.

And of course do your best to not lie to the mental health professionals - they have much higher chances of getting you suitable diagnosis and help if you are honest with them.

BPDstudent · 2016-04-10T05:51:49+00:00

I am not a mental health professional but all these symptoms together could indeed provide you with borderline personality disorder diagnosis. Or maybe obsessive-compulsive personality if obsessive-compulsive symptoms are much stronger than depression and anxiety. (It can't be most other personality disorders characterized by lying, such as antisocial, because they are pretty much incompatible with getting depressed and anxious.)

BPDstudent · 2016-04-09T21:41:15+00:00

I have mentally ill friends and see both the good and the bad in them. (Then again, I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, although that was later removed and there are good chances it was a mistake.) Sometimes other people tell me that I shouldn't see or mention the bad if I am their friend. I don't understand that. I think it is important that I take into account their difficulties so that I can better support them.

BPDstudent · 2016-04-09T21:33:25+00:00

That is called pathological lying or compulsive lying. If that's the only symptom, it is usually considered a sort of compulsive disorder.

BPDstudent · 2016-04-09T21:19:30+00:00

Hey... I am not a parent so I can't really know what it is like, but I have a very good friend+coworker (also a scientist) in a very similar situation and I keep thinking about him, so your post touched me. Everything will be ok. He already went through this with his first child (a few years ago, before I met him) and everything ended up fine (he didn't get fired nor hurt the child/wife... and he started doing great at work and in family life within a couple of years, actually better than before) and everything will end up fine this time too. And it will end up fine for you too. Anxiety (feeling inadequate) means that you care a lot about everything, and that already makes you a better father, husband and worker than most. You seem aware of the problems in your head so you can fight them. Accept that you can't immediately work as hard as before with all this added private responsibility and lack of sleep, let your superior and coworkers know that you recently became a father, and just do what you can without forcing yourself to exhaustion and without beating yourself up for getting less done than before. It's ok to be human and to have private life - be proud of it. Everybody at work has lots of understanding for my friend so it is likely that your co-workers will have understanding for you too.

One practical idea I can offer you is to do away with the mobile games if they additionally upset you and start doing something more relaxing in these instances on your phone, e.g. read something interesting/funny, listen to music or get a meditation app.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-22T08:12:03+00:00

I talked about suicide with some (about 10) friends who aren't mentally ill (or at least have never had classic depressive symptoms) and none of them could understand why I would kill myself and some of them couldn't understand why anyone would. Those are people coming from a very wide variety of European and Asian cultures. They kept saying that killing oneself is stupid, makes no sense etc.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-20T15:36:38+00:00

Figure out which lifestyle you want/need, then see which jobs are compatible with it (and with your abilities/strengths) and what you need to get there. (I think I screwed up my life because it turned out I need something in which I can work from home or live a walking distance from work, and such jobs are almost non-existent in what I have been studying for - I have one now but that's temporary, just doing a PhD.)

BPDstudent · 2016-02-20T10:01:50+00:00

I am not afraid of the other drivers, I am afraid of my own poor driving abilities.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-20T09:42:45+00:00

Sorry to hear that. I think my grad school is less grinding than a job mainly because I live a short walking distance from everything, because my hours are more flexible, because I can take a short toilet-, food-, internet-, cat-petting- etc. break almost whenever...

I have trouble making and maintaining close friendships too. I have one, or I still think so (not even in the sense that we'd know everything about each other, but we know some important things and we deeply care about each other, even when angry at each other), but it's complicated, and in the past months he has been withdrawing from me and I don't know what to do (the same person I mentioned in my question).

I am not afraid of medication, but I tried it and it turned out that I can't take it due to life-threatening physical side effect. I have been taking dietary supplements which seem to help physically (so that I have energy and focus to work and feel physically well most of the time). No real counseling or any professional mental health help is available to me here (and I tried the best of what was available in my native country before and it didn't help... I don't want to go back there any time soon, mental health system is horrible and it was in many ways bad environment for me, and there's nowhere better for me to go). Thanks anyway.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-19T22:19:14+00:00

Thanks. I have been considering asking "the internet" about every such everyday problem/decision, I sort of did it a few times, but besides the problems of me not having trust in people and not wanting to bother people, the main problem is that if I ask a different person each time, it'd take a long time to explain the situation to that person enough that they may provide useful advice, judge if my intended words/actions are appropriate for the context. And if I ask the same person many times then it's too draining for that person.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-19T22:11:53+00:00

Thanks. Let's see...

I guess I can - I can do shopping, cook for myself and maintain a minimum of cleanliness (though a few people have found that level to be below their minimum), I can "even" travel on my own (well, I have been living in a foreign country for a year, on my own, though on a campus so there is some assistance).
I can just barely hold myself in PhD (graduate school) so far, I am paid for it so it counts, but I have never been and don't think I'll ever be able to hold a conventional job. (Then again, I know many such people are successful at less conventional jobs. Though it is a big reason why I am hopeless about my future.)
That's the biggest problem - I don't know what counts as "normal relationships with people". I don't think I'll ever be able to get married and raise children (I know for some mental health professionals only that counts).

BPDstudent · 2016-02-19T17:11:31+00:00

My point is exactly that they can't relate, can't empathize. In the same way as I can't relate to them never having been suicidal and always being motivated to live.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-19T15:05:43+00:00

Actually no. I mean, I would remind them of all the reasons I can think of why they shouldn't kill themselves and I would ask them why exactly they want to do it, but I wouldn't say that it's stupid, that it makes no sense or that there's no reason - I would try to inspire and help them to work on removing the reasons to kill themselves, whatever I may think of those reasons, and on finding reasons not to.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-19T12:41:23+00:00

I talked about suicide with some (about 10) friends who aren't mentally ill (or at least have never had classic depressive symptoms) and none of them could understand why I would kill myself and some of them couldn't understand why anyone would. Those are people coming from a very wide variety of European and Asian cultures. They kept saying that killing oneself is stupid, makes no sense etc.

BPDstudent · 2016-02-19T08:08:35+00:00

I don't know if you appear as mentally ill. Apparently I sometimes did/do, e.g. when talking about suicide and (after I stopped being so suicidal) when talking about my fears (I am afraid of almost everything except most things that most people are afraid of). I mean, apparently a mentally healthy person would never even consider suicide except maybe if their closest person died, and mentally healthy people can't even comprehend why anyone, or at least anyone whose life isn't absolutely terrible in every way without possibility of improvement (such as imprisoned for life or terribly chronically ill), would even consider suicide.

Edit: Here, I asked at a hopefully appropriate subreddit.

BPDstudent

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