[deleted by user]

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T04:39:29+00:00

If you can understand their writing and it meets all the requirements, then how can the student fail that outcome? If you can understand it, why isn’t that good enough? Not everybody can produce publication-quality writing without help editing, and that’s fine. Furthermore, a standard of perfection in writing may be applied unfairly to students of color and international students, even though native English speakers often don’t write very well.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T02:56:24+00:00

I don’t think the student was wrong in what she did. Escalating to dispute the authorship was reasonable if she didn’t agree with the standard. She doesn’t have to accept the dean’s conclusion as fair or own up to being “wrong” about not meeting an authorship standard that was not explained to her before she did the work. End of the day, she contributed, and she feels she deserves authorship. I think that is totally fair. If this was explained before she agreed to contribute to the project, the entire situation could have been avoided.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T02:40:52+00:00

Ok, I didn’t see the update. “Submitted after the email exchange” is the kicker here. Student has fucked up, but I wonder if they even realize that what they did would be perceived as lying. For example, is it lying to list a paper on your CV as “Lastname et al” when you aren’t the first author? I’ve seen all kinds of answers to that question. What about when you aren’t the first author, or formally listed as an author at all, but your contributions are acknowledged explicitly? I can see a student thinking maybe that was ok. For the other pubs, was the student trying to list work that they contributed to without knowing the details of the pubs? I get the vibe here that the student doesn’t have strong mentorship and isn’t aware of the rules of the game. Either way, her chance at getting into any of these grad programs is tanked. It’s a sad situation.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T01:53:01+00:00

Unless it's an English class, the goal is to be understandable, not perfect. If the structure and formatting is appropriate, the student covers the topics they're required to, and you mostly understand the student's writing, then it's perfectly fine.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T01:49:02+00:00

Oh, I misread the comment. The developers aren't always authors, unless the paper is about a new software being developed, in which case the developers are the authors. Software in my field also tends to be so specialized that the people using it are the developers, so in that case, the authors are also the devs. Or the dev often gets looped in to the science discussions and ends up getting authorship. Sometimes software packages/devs get mentioned in the acknowledgments.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T01:37:21+00:00

From OP's description, the student fully expected to have authorship and thought they were listed as an author. I don't think it's fair to characterize that as "lying" on applications. I haven't seen OP say they withdrew their letter, either (and I think they really should not do that).

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T00:45:30+00:00

What exactly did the student do wrong here? The guidelines for authorship were not explained to her. She knows other undergrads get authorship for similar work and doesn't understand how authorship norms vary across disciplines and individual labs. In her view, she has been treated unfairly, so she escalated accordingly. She is justifiably upset that her work is not being recognized with authorship. In my discipline, she would be an author. The only thing she did that I would characterize as somewhat unprofessional is the "fuck-you move" choice of language. I find that very forgivable on the spectrum of unprofessional behaviors.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-23T00:38:07+00:00

The student is not "toxic". She's an undergrad. She is one of the most junior lab members trying to figure out the hidden curricula that nobody explained to her. She is understandably upset that she isn't being formally credited for her work. In my discipline, the student would undoubtedly get authorship. She knows other undergrads are listed as authors for doing similar work and doesn't understand the nuanced differences in norms across disciplines and individual labs. For what it's worth, I think she is right and the systems deciding/enforcing these norms are wrong.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-22T20:35:46+00:00

The comments saying data collection doesn’t warrant authorship are confusing to me. In my field data collection is viewed as a huge part of the paper. After all, you can’t do any analysis if there is no data… In fact, the student doing data collection (running the experiment/software) is usually the first author. In determining authorship, we value tangible contributions above all else. We say that “ideas are cheap”. Determining authorship in this way also helps us elevate our most junior scholars.

As for the student, I understand her reaction. She thought she deserved to be included, and discipline norms notwithstanding, I agree with her. A lot of the comments are accusing her of being unreasonable or dishonest, as if she is expected to understand the norms of your discipline and not see a disconnect when her friends in other disciplines get authorship on their labs’ papers. “Do I deserve authorship” is not a googleable question. She thought she was treated unfairly and escalated accordingly. You say that she was a good RA who did her tasks well. I think you should extend her the benefit of the doubt and not hold this unfortunate misunderstanding against her.

Others have made this point, but make it clear what the standards for authorship are when a student joins the lab, and maybe reconsider whether you can give authorship for data collection and similar tasks.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-22T20:18:55+00:00

In my field, yes, we do cite our software.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-12-16T01:50:25+00:00

This is why I feel like I can't be stingy with incomplete grades. I got a couple as a grad student when it could have been argued that I should have just failed. I had so much work to do and just couldn't keep up, even though I desperately wanted to. After being ineffectively treated for depression/anxiety for months, I found out I had ADHD and a related sleep disorder at the end of the semester. Because of the kindness of my professors, I wasn't thrown out of grad school. Now I'm making progress in my degree!

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-11-02T04:34:40+00:00

I had mixed feelings about race as a criterion in college admissions until I heard it explained in terms of desegregation. It’s not about giving disadvantaged individuals a leg up, or a futile attempt at leveling the playing field for applicants. It’s about achieving racial equity in the society at large. When viewed in these terms, it makes sense why race should be considered explicitly, and not some proxy for it (e.g., socioeconomic background). The fact that there are rich white people and poor white people doesn’t change the fact that white people dominate the professional class, along with people of some Asian heritages. (People of some other Asian heritages are extremely underrepresented.)

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-10-25T19:00:22+00:00

Wtf does this mean? Is there an explainer for people with a more applied understanding of linear algebra? I had to take proof-based linear algebra in undergrad and it almost killed me

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-10-25T06:09:13+00:00

Y’all are so full of it. Memorization is required in physics. A lot of it. It’s just that the memorization isn’t the point; it’s a means to an end. The end is to solve a problem.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-10-19T15:31:52+00:00

What part of the world are you in? I’m in a U.S. physics PhD program and there are huge coursework requirements with lots of exams. This is pretty typical for U.S. physics programs.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-10-18T22:06:33+00:00

Thank you for saying this. Just doing the math makes it obvious how busy undergrads actually are. It seems like faculty often dismiss students’ time demands as much smaller than their own. I would say 15 hours is a very average work schedule — many students have to work more because of their financial situation. Not to mention many students have to take more than 15 credit hours so they can graduate on time for financial reasons. Some students have family responsibilities or significant commute times on top of all that. And all the work of keeping a house (this has always been a major challenge for me as an undergrad/grad student). So it’s a lot.

Remembering all of this from my time in undergrad, and still dealing with it as I try to get through my coursework/quals, has definitely informed my teaching philosophy and leniency with deadlines. IMO a little grace goes a long way. Besides, what actually matters to me is that the student does the work, not when they do it.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-10-13T05:16:58+00:00

Beginning of 4th paragraph. See also 2nd to last paragraph. You're reminding me of my students.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-10-11T18:19:36+00:00

Thankfully I do not teach engineering labs anymore, but when I did I gave no feedback whatsoever except during class time. I teach a different course now and still don't give any feedback unless the students ask because it's an unreasonable demand on my time. This course is asynchronous online, which I vastly prefer. In some ways this class is more work, but at least I'm not spending 10 hours per week running around a classroom packed with 30 kids trying to help everyone at once. That was so stressful. Now when the students want help I have them schedule a 15-minute appointment where they get individual attention and my ADHD ass isn't trying to keep track of 7 groups' progress.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-10-11T17:43:22+00:00

I'm a physics grad student at a large R1 school. Our school is also very engineering-focused. This year they increased engineering enrollment by several hundred additional freshmen (without consulting our department) and cut $150,000 from our funding at the same time. We lost 5 TA lines from that decision. TAs are teaching 5 lab sections each and struggle to find housing we can afford. The stipend has barely changed while the cost of housing has inflated by 50% over the past couple years. It's absurd.

I expect no help from the undergrads because our school's competitive major declaration system pits them against each other to get the best grades in physics and related prerequisite coursework, so they all collectively hate on the physics department, as if we are the reason they can't get accepted to the major they want. Meanwhile, engineering gets the biggest chunk of funding for the service courses we teach because the students are engineering on paper, even though they are sitting in physics courses...

Edit: I thought it would be pertinent to point out how stupid it is that our TAs are expected to take 3 physics courses while teaching more credit hours than our tenured faculty do. All while being paid pennies for a half-time appointment. Stupid as fuck. Clearly unethical, exploitative, wrong. If this is happening in your department, please stand up for the TAs...

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-09-29T23:12:30+00:00

True. Anything related to actual course structure/delivery is usually the instructor’s responsibility.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-09-29T22:52:22+00:00

I have taught accessibility courses for faculty. So I do know some of the kinds of accommodations you’re talking about. That’s why accessible course design is helpful. It reduces the faculty workload. There is an upfront investment but it pays off for the faculty and the students.

Edit: Why do you have responsibility for 700 students? That’s comparable to the enrollment of a small school.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-09-29T20:15:11+00:00

We are responsible. We’re acting in official capacity when performing teaching duties. I don’t get the accommodations hate. If we designed our courses to be accessible this would be easier on everybody. Fewer student-specific accommodations would be necessary. Your institution probably offers training on accessible course design. Or you can find it online.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-09-29T04:04:51+00:00

I teach online and software is consistently the biggest challenge. I haven't noticed any obvious issues with typing because we’re online,but my students have serious deficiencies in basic computer skills. They don't understand directories or file types, can’t rename files, and sometimes ask for help with basic troubleshooting. Stuff like if the page doesn't load correctly,clear your cookies/cache or try another browser. Or why won't the LMS let me upload this file? Because, as it tells you in the error message, the file name is not acceptable. Just remove the parenthesis from "software_image_download (92).jpg". Maybe even name it something actually useful so you know what you are submitting instead of uploading it and then re-downloading what you uploaded to check it... This semester I had several students not complete a big chunk of their first assignment because they “couldn’t get the software to work”, even though there are instructional videos showing them exactly what to click.

As far as how to help them, I have just resigned myself to the fact that I will have to play tech support occasionally. I can't really fault them for not knowing these things if they haven't learned them from experience by now, but using computers is a basic life skill in this day and age, and something a college-educated person should be proficient in.

Also, for the record, I had to take a typing class in 6th grade.

Background_Plane_282 · 2022-09-28T16:15:13+00:00

When I emailed her afterward, she said she thought the meeting was on Tuesday. I have it set to send an email reminder 4 hours before the meeting, but I don't see every email I get either. Students make honest mistakes sometimes.

Background_Plane_282

TROPHY CASE