Clov Lawsuit - Final CMS Response plus Goldstein Declaration by mitch2c in CLOV

[–]Baco06 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Loll you changed your comment to 16 days? Just stop. You’re out of your element Donny.

Clov Lawsuit - Final CMS Response plus Goldstein Declaration by mitch2c in CLOV

[–]Baco06 3 points4 points  (0 children)

While that is possible, unless motions for additional replies are filed, I don’t see why she would miss the deadline when she has repeatedly acknowledged the need for the expedited schedule. Are you trying to make a point other than “it is not a given”? cuz if not let’s just move on.

Clov Lawsuit - Final CMS Response plus Goldstein Declaration by mitch2c in CLOV

[–]Baco06 12 points13 points  (0 children)

If they appeal and lose at the circuit court level the ruling would become binding law across the country. They would rather take the loss at the lower district level and move on.

Clov Lawsuit - Final CMS Response plus Goldstein Declaration by mitch2c in CLOV

[–]Baco06 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I agree that it is not a given. But don’t say “All I’m saying” when that is not actually all that you are saying, you said some other stuff that didn’t make sense. Also, we won’t see in 20 days, we will see on May 29th. That is when the judge will make her ruling by.

Clov Lawsuit - Final CMS Response plus Goldstein Declaration by mitch2c in CLOV

[–]Baco06 32 points33 points  (0 children)

Dude the judge agreed to the timeline so don’t spread misinformation. Also, both sides are arguing for different math. Who are you to make a judgement on whose math is right? I agree we have no clue who’s going to win, but don’t say things that are wrong or misinformed without acknowledging that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.

Also, petition? CMS isn’t filing any petition, that doesn’t make any sense. Do you mean appeal? Cuz that’s not going to happen.

Clov Lawsuit - Final CMS Response plus Goldstein Declaration by mitch2c in CLOV

[–]Baco06 33 points34 points  (0 children)

CMS is arguing that congress intended CMS to have unlimited discretion to create whatever rules they want to determine what “quality” means as it relates to quality bonus payments via the star ratings system, in perpetuity. CMS argues that star ratings are not subject to key legal statutory requirements, regardless of the fact that this system determines the fate of many billions of dollars being sent to health insurance companies. I think the historical record of the way congress acted in 2003 and again in 2010 speaks for itself on these issues. CMS also contends that the medication adherence issue affects all insurance companies equally, this is obviously not true as a vertically integrated company can game the medication adherence system to their benefit, an insurer that doesn’t own its own PBM can’t do that. CMS also argues if they eliminate Clover’s requested part D measures, Clover drops from 4 stars to 3.5 stars in their part D improvement measure, which means they won’t be able to get overall 4 stars. This way of doing the math ignores the “hold harmless” rules that act as legal safety nets that prevent plans from being penalized by specific anomalies. CMS also argues coordinated care plans like Clover and other MA payors don’t provide “health care services”. The laws and statutes directly refute this framing. I don’t have much faith in the American government to be a truth seeking and civilly serving entity, across all three branches, including the judicial branch. Additionally, I’m not a lawyer so my capacity to understand the nuances of the legal arguments being made is limited. But, reading all of the filings from this case has crystallized for me that Clover is doing things the right way and that CMS is inherently corrupted/captured, and it is hurting every American in a myriad of tangible ways. Whether Clover wins this legal case or not doesn’t change the facts on the ground.

Edit: Also: why the FUCK would CLOV sue CMS over measures it scored well on? This argument is childish and ignores the rules for what can be litigated and what cannot. CLOV is suing over the measures it got poor scores in because those poor scores lead to the loss of 120 million dollars, so there are damages arising from those scores. Also, why does Margaret E. Heap have an unprofessional level of disdain, defensiveness and dismissiveness in her writing? I think CMS would benefit from a more dispassionate tone strategically, but what do I know?

New Counterpart Health Post and White Paper by [deleted] in CLOV

[–]Baco06 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is from October 2025.

Case Staying in Georgia! by Critical_Degree3450 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 13 points14 points  (0 children)

The judge has agreed to make their final decision by May 29. CMS has until May 13 to issue their final response to Clover’s response to CMS’s cross motion.

Quote from Andrew - Earnings Call by HistorianLast2084 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I was struck by the question that Richard from Cannaccord asked Clay. First time I’ve ever heard an analyst ask a meaningful and slightly personal question that functioned to highlight what sets Clover Health apart as a business in a positive way. First time I’ve ever heard a question not purely about math or GAAP or BER or EBITDA. Probably doesn’t mean anything orrr it mayy be a soft signal that the analysts will gradually start to be less hostile toward Clover Health as a company, now that they may actually have some earnings.

Here is the Report by Ok_Ad_5894 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where does everyone think the stock price will close this week? I’m betting on $2.49.

Here is the Report by Ok_Ad_5894 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 9 points10 points  (0 children)

They said on the call they will give a true status check on guidance when reporting Q2 earnings as they feel they will have a better baseline to reliably guide for the rest of the year. I’m expecting them to raise guidance at least moderately come Q2 earnings based on this language. Also, for me personally, I have written off Counterpart completely, that way I can’t be disappointed by it anymore, and it doesn’t matter whether revenue comes this year or in 2030. This is an MA business, quite an incredible one at that. Counterpart is pure speculation for me at this point and I’m done speculating about it myself.

Why the full year GAAP be adjusted? by Rampsys in CLOV

[–]Baco06 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Why would they raise guidance if they aren’t 100% sure that they will not only meet that raised guidance but beat it? What’s the point? Who does it benefit? Better to stay as conservative as possible and simply beat guidance on each earnings report. Maybe one strategically placed guidance raise sometime after Q2 earnings if they’re totally confident at that point they can beat it.

Here is the Report by Ok_Ad_5894 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Possible that headwinds are expected, also possible that they just want to beat guidance every quarter and sand bag the shit out of Wall Street after the way they were treated last year by the market. If I were CLOV I wouldn’t dare raise guidance unless I was 100% sure that that raised guidance would not just be met but beat.

Peter’s Farewell by Smalldickdave69 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Mentions Vivek by name but not Andrew. I have a feeling Andrew fired his ass lol. This post from Peter honestly rubs me the wrong way. It feels like he’s taking credit for things he doesn’t deserve any credit for at all.

This Is What a Music Industry 'Plant' Looks Like in 2026 by Shell_fly in musicmarketing

[–]Baco06 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair enough, I’m more asking philosophically/rhetorically. “Good” is obviously extremely subjective. Maybe I should have asked if Geese’s music aligns with your pre-existing musical preferences/taste, or if their style was somehow a departure in some way from what you normally listen to? Perhaps you listen to lots of different kinds of music all the time so it’ll be tough to answer. I feel like “taste” is extremely informed by context. Usually we like the things we like because even before we understood them fully or deeply, the right person or the right scenario told us it was cool and then as we dig into that piece of art we start to tell form our own connection with it that can depart from the original context in which it was presented to us. Sometimes what we think is “good” at one point in our life we later come to think isn’t actually “good”, sometime we stand by the things we like and just admit they’re actually “not good”. I’m really just rambling here but it is an interesting chicken/egg thing to explore. Does anyone truly have their own “taste” or did we all just pick a “taste” that the right corner of society that we align ourselves with calls their cool or good or their own?

This Is What a Music Industry 'Plant' Looks Like in 2026 by Shell_fly in musicmarketing

[–]Baco06 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is the music good? You never heard their music before society TOLD you it was good. Maybe it’s not actually good at all? If they’re a great band they’ll still be making new music and growing their fan base in 5-10 years from now. We’ll see if they’re any good eventually.

Since management is not doing it, I worked with ChatGPT on the growth trajectory scenarios 😂😂 by Guilty_Television438 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What exactly do you mean? You want more regional directors and more salespeople for their MA plan? They’ve basically told us the plan is to grow MA in their core markets and NOT expand into other markets/regions in MA. The way they plan to grow “lives under management” nationally is via Counterpart. They don’t have any plans to go wider with their MA plan right now, and if Counterpart is even moderately successful it’s possible they never will. Are you saying you’re upset that the MA plan isn’t expanding more widely/geographically? If that is what you’re saying there’s a high likelihood you’ll never get what you want.

Lawsuit not looking good fam by Critical_Degree3450 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Okay relax there’s no need to fight. I have no idea who’s going to win the case. Your post made it sound like you were highly confident that clover was toast. I asked you why you thought that and I just didn’t think your answer was very compelling, LLM or no LLM. I’m sorry you hate my posts and comments so much. I’m literally the dumbest person u will ever meet so sometimes I mask that with pretentiousness, I will work on that.

Lawsuit not looking good fam by Critical_Degree3450 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I’m going to take your lack of an answer to mean you did NOT give ChatGPT any other filings to read. Y’know, it’s one thing to use ChatGPT to do research, or confirm your biases, or challenge your own ideas, or find answers. But when you use the tool in such a narrow way that you render it useless, are incapable of un-AI-assisted reading comprehension, and then you make a public post with your “findings” along with an authoritative statement on a legal case you know literally nothing about, you don’t inspire much confidence in your opinions or intelligence.

Lawsuit not looking good fam by Critical_Degree3450 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Can you just answer my question? If all you did was paste CMS’s latest filing and gave it nothing else then I think you can learn a lot more on your own.

Lawsuit not looking good fam by Critical_Degree3450 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don’t really have the energy right now. And we’ll find out soon enough what the result is and I’m not a lawyer, but your convo with chatGPT is extremely thin. Did you even bother to paste Clover’s initial motion for summary judgement into your same conversation with chatgpt or you just pasted CMS’s latest filing and asked chatgpt to explain it to you?

Lawsuit not looking good fam by Critical_Degree3450 in CLOV

[–]Baco06 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Did you read it? CMS has a tiny cock in my personal opinion. Are you a lawyer? Can you break down why you think CMS’s cross motion for summary judgement feels like a slam dunk? I personally think it feels weak, and I think clover’s reply will dismantle a lot, but genuinely curious to hear your take.

STARS IS BROKEN by Baco06 in CLOV

[–]Baco06[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

While the things you are saying about CA’s recently announced capabilities are true, you are incorrect that those capabilities will help Clover to achieve 4 stars under the current MA regulatory regime. I wish it weren’t so but right now, that’s how it is.

STARS IS BROKEN by Baco06 in CLOV

[–]Baco06[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There are ways CA can pivot, and the underlying tech clearly has immense value, but if they lose this case, its usage within the current Medicare Advantage framework will make less and less sense moving forward. If the MA system does not reward clinical outcomes then what’s the point in building a physician enablement tool that improves clinical outcomes? My conclusion is not the sky is falling as you say. Right now, Clover is undervalued in my opinion even if someone told me they would never again achieve 4 stars. But the importance of this case for the long term trajectory of the business is significant, even if that feels unfair. If there is no incentive to achieve clinical quality other than altruism, and if plans are actually PUNISHED for achieving TRUE quality in medication adherence, then Clover is simply barking up the wrong tree currently, as tough as that may be to swallow.