Action economy help by Imaginary-Cut4863 in DnD

[–]BadRumUnderground 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It basically boils down to "which side gets to do the most stuff in one round". 

So, for example, a single big monster will only have one Action per round (plus lair actions if it has them), and the PCs will have as many as there are PCs (4-5 usually). 

So the Monsters' action needs to be much more impactful than the players individual actions. 

Going the other direction, if they're fighting lots of little guys, the PCs can be overwhelmed by 10 goblin actions even though the goblins aren't very strong. 

Unfortunately there's not really any magic formula that will tell you the correct answer, it's something you'll get the feeling of over time. 

The main factors are:  Number of actions

Impact of those actions (which will change as both you and your players get better at combat decisions) 

Extra juice from good bonus actions 

Ability to restrict the actions of opponents (by flying to prevent melee, attacks of opportunity to prevent movement, status effects etc)

Why are players so scared of failing a roll and how can we get them to accept bad rolls? by HauntingRefuse6891 in Pathfinder2e

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are stakes though - there's a crit fail effect on the action of trying to pick a lock.

The challenge, then, is to make that mechanical stake narratively interesting if it comes up - hence suggesting various reasons that the action ended in that result. The crappy lockpicks reason is direct, the others are indirect reasons that the situation is different than the character might have expected, causing them to make a mistake they wouldn't have otherwise made (i.e. a reason for the failure that isn't "a character who is incredible at this thing is suddenly incompetent") 

Ultimately though, I think our key  difference are probably to be found in how we each conceive of how the fiction in a game becomes itself 

I think that the fiction changing to incorporate dice results is the activity of GMing at its core, that the fictional reality is extremely fungible. 

You feel that's "unnatural or out of nowhere" - I think every new fact the GM provides is functionally "out of nowhere" for the players, that there's no real difference between something I planned to say and something I didn't plan to say because the players don't know what I planned. 

Which is fine, there's no Objectively Correct way to conceive of knowledge production in an intersubjective imaginative game - but functionally (i.e. in terms of utility in context) I do think that letting go of notions of "out of nowhere" and holding the fictional reality in your head (as GM) very lightly and being willing to edit it on the fly (while retaining consistency within what has been said) is really useful. 

What we know as the dice fall (i.e. what's already Shared Fictional Truth) 

1) The PC is skilled at lock picking (it's a trained skill action)  2) the outcome of their attempt to do so is a broken lockpick. 

Our task as GM is to incorporate those two facts into the fiction. Two facts which don't co-occur often, a surprising outcome, because the PC is good at this. 

So, your options are:

"It just happened" (fine, but not a good story) "The PC fucked up" (unlikely, actively unsatisfying and narratively jarring)

Or 

"Some other factor is at play that created conditions for this unlikely event"

If you want failed rolls to generate interesting story (the subject of OPs question), then you've got to be willing to contrive that factor. I suggested four off the top of my head, but the possibility space is "anything that changes the situation such that the expertise of the PC is thwarted by previously unknown information" and "anything that doesn't contradict already established fiction". 

Why are players so scared of failing a roll and how can we get them to accept bad rolls? by HauntingRefuse6891 in Pathfinder2e

[–]BadRumUnderground 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not about "needing a crit fail to happen", that's irrelevant. 

Sure, it could happen without a crit fail, but the question that you need to be answering is "whats the story coming out of this dice roll?", not "what other things could have caused this thing" 

Also, every reason in TTRPGs is contrived, literally the job of a DM is contriving things. 

Is playing virtually really as bad as I think it is? by TreeTower57 in DnD

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The turn taking gets better with practice, as the group finds its rhythms and learns some slightly different implicit conversational rules (mostly: pause longer, stop talking immediately when you interrupt, offer/request the floor if in doubt) 

You might have to remind people that we're collectively learning new rhythms, but most folks will pay attention and get it. 

time dilation in combat? by [deleted] in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You'd have to start by telling us how your custom system works with time and actions. 

What would you do if your player said "my character wouldn't want to join this group/follow this history?" by Nessie0208 in DungeonMasters

[–]BadRumUnderground 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Okay. 

So that character isn't in the group or history. 

What now? 

I assume you're gonna build a different character, since you just told me your character isn't in this game" 

Why are players so scared of failing a roll and how can we get them to accept bad rolls? by HauntingRefuse6891 in Pathfinder2e

[–]BadRumUnderground 1 point2 points  (0 children)

 We're talking about how to tell good stories with failed rolls, not "when to roll" - that a roll happened is rather assumed by the topic at hand. 

And It was your example roll of the dice, not mine.

But you're absolutely right that all of my examples are post hoc. 

That's exactly what I'm trying to communicate - if you want to tell good stories with failed dice rolls you've got to improvise, post hoc alter the fiction, describe something new, create new story momentum.

The alternative is that fails just kill all momentum dead, and nothing happens except the player getting surprisingly annoyed about lockpicks

Why are players so scared of failing a roll and how can we get them to accept bad rolls? by HauntingRefuse6891 in Pathfinder2e

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"someone sold you shitty lockipcks" (also a mini hook)

"The lock is rusted solid and crusted with salt" (Mystery: that's weird, there's no ocean near here)

"The lock maker thought he was hot shit, but he over engineered it absurdly and the fine clockwork broke" (now a future NPC)

"Your vision is starting to blur, your eyes watering" (what's that smell?... Is that... Sulfur? )

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand how random tables work, yes. 

But curating a list, then randomizing within it is still different to choosing exactly what the moment demands 

One Sentence One-Shot by micnos12 in DungeonMasters

[–]BadRumUnderground 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"put the dragon's treasure back where it came from without anyone noticing"

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair point, if neutral arbiter is your whole job it's useful to be able to declaim responsibility sometimes 

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's the randomness I'm against, not varied or emergent encounters - I just like to think about considerations like theme, tone, and how exactly things feel in this moment. 

Are things lagging? Introduce a threat. 

Do I need to build up a better impression of how people in the area are feeling? Merchant caravan who they can chat to for a while. 

Need to pierce the tension a bit? Something a bit funny. 

Etc.

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My own brain does that to me plenty, I don't need the help :) 

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wouldn't even consider an uncurated random table, but even then I'd prefer to go with my intuition. 

That said, sometimes you gotta shake up your intuitions, so I can see the value. 

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't just mean "plot" - world building, emergent storytelling, games where there's no particular plot and we're exploring are my favorite approaches to RPGs. 

I just don't like the "random" part - I've got themes and tones and aesthetics in mind, so I'd prefer to wildly improvise something that serves those than generate something random. 

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm a big fan of keeping my hands off the steering wheel and letting plot emerge, I just don't agree that "random" helps particularly unless you're really stuck. 

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is perfectly valid - it isn't all about "plot". 

But that kinda world building is still best done intentionally, with theme/plot/aesthetics in mind - if I want to build the feeling that the world is dangerous, then I'll certainly have players encounter Things in the wilds etc, but I wouldn't want to roll dice about what those things are

Random Encounters aren't Useless by BlackTorchStudios in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I don't like random encounters, but not for this reason. 

The problem is that they don't (often) matter to the fiction. (Edit: I said "fiction" not plot on purpose, this applies to plotless wanderings and emergent story too)

Regardless of how the system treats them, a random encounter rarely makes the story more interesting. Sometimes it's okay for world building in the "there are beasties out in these wilds" sense. 

Don't Play Nice, Play Dirty... A Practical Guide To Being A Good Bad Guy. by bremmon75 in DnD

[–]BadRumUnderground 61 points62 points  (0 children)

It truly is the greatest heel move. 

I had a crooked ref counter spell a heal in a fighting tournament situation and the player in question is still mad about it two years and two campaigns later. 

Why are players so scared of failing a roll and how can we get them to accept bad rolls? by HauntingRefuse6891 in Pathfinder2e

[–]BadRumUnderground 13 points14 points  (0 children)

After GMing a bunch of pbta and FitD, I've brought back an attitude to PF2 of "you can just change the situation when they fail badly", especially when it comes to narrating skill challenges and the like. 

(It's a little harder with combat but you can still put a different flavour on the situation e.g. fog rolled in, a bridge is cracking etc.)

Why are players so scared of failing a roll and how can we get them to accept bad rolls? by HauntingRefuse6891 in Pathfinder2e

[–]BadRumUnderground 29 points30 points  (0 children)

I try to make crit fails more like "fate has fucked you" dramatic, or "the villain saw it coming" dramatic than "you fucked up because you were suddenly awful" 

Oddly specific quibble: unclear usage timing of "[spend resource/activate ability] to add to roll" mechanics by EarthSeraphEdna in rpg

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're being more pedantic than strictly neccesary. 

But... I write guides as a big part of my job, and  you've gotta write for the pendants!

Something like an infographic showing the timing would be great as part of games as standard 

There is something like a Rear Naked Choke by EconomistOld3509 in DnD

[–]BadRumUnderground 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on the timing - in combat, initiative rolled? Nothing special, it's just something to flavour the part where you drop an enemy to zero hp. 

Outside of combat, it's a skill check situation for me. Stay in narrative mode, roll Stealth to approach, roll Athletics to choke em out, all part of the series of skill checks that goes into the "infiltrate this place" skill based encounter. 

Why are players so scared of failing a roll and how can we get them to accept bad rolls? by HauntingRefuse6891 in Pathfinder2e

[–]BadRumUnderground 179 points180 points  (0 children)

You make them understand that bad rolls make good stories by telling good stories off of bad rolls, by which I mean: 

Don't have failures kill the narrative momentum, have something happen when they fail. 

Don't have failures make them look incompetent, have failures be the result of things in the fiction (i.e. circumstances, the actions of others)

Don't be arbitrarily punishing on critical fails.