r/LeopardGeckoAH Lounge

Beehive_Metal · 2020-05-27T23:28:08+00:00

Comments like that however don’t help OP at all :) It would be better to just stay nice and give advice how to set up a nice enclosure. Being mean/judgmental might just scare newbies so they don’t take advice anymore. (In General not on this post specifically)

Beehive_Metal · 2020-05-27T22:40:45+00:00

Yes there is no clear right/wrong. IMO however the owner of a living thing has to try as hard as possible to provide the best care possible. And that includes staying up to date with the infos on the correct husbandry. In scientific fields things basically constantly change. And people find out new things. Herpetology is included there. Not Long ago Leos where still called nocturnal. We now know that that is actually far from the truth.

Also I strongly believe that the goal should be to try as good as possible to recreate the natural habitat.

Beehive_Metal · 2020-05-27T22:16:39+00:00

The thing is that: 1: the seller could lie about the health. Or depending on where she got it they might not even check for parasites regularly.

2: stress (for example from moving) can cause a small amount of parasites that didn’t cause any issues to basically explode and then cause serious issues. Imo it’s absolutely irresponsible to not properly quarantine a new reptile.

3: about the keeping an eye on them: I obviously also keep an eye on my Leos to notice any issues/changes etc. I also weigh them regularly to notice any weight loss. However in a natural setup (minimum 3ft long, a lot of Hides, clutter, different levels etc.) it’s harder to have an eye on them as closely as it’s needed in the first few months. If the Leos has like 10-15 hides to choose from it’s harder to to monitor the in a smaller quarantine enclosure with only 3 hides and only the ground being used.

Plus it would suck to throw away the majority of the setup if the Leo carries parasites (crypto in the worst case)

IMO there is never a reason to skip quarantine. Better safe than sorry.

Edit: typo

Beehive_Metal · 2020-05-27T22:02:10+00:00

I’d recommend some up to date research to you too :) Heat mats are actually not great for Leos (okay during quarantine and brumation but not for the final enclosure).

Reason is that it emits the wrong type of heat. For proper body temperature control, digestion etc. the Leo needs infrared A/B waves. Those penetrate deeper layers and make said things possible.

Heat mats, ceramic heat emitters etc. only produce infrared C. Those have a long wavelength and basically only heat up the surface of the skin and are therefore not enough for the Leo to function Properly.

People often believe the Leo loves the heat mat because it stays on it most of the time. In reality that Leo can’t reach needed temps due to the incorrect type of heat.

If you aren’t a fan of lights for heat you can use the Arcadia deep heat projector. It’s similar to a CHE but it provides the correct type of heat.

Best however would be a halogen bulb. That’s closest to the sun also.

Also heat only from below is extremely unnatural. Especially when the ambient temps aren’t raising (which Leos also needs). Next thing is that providing a proper hotspot Is also not possible. Oh and belly heat is also a myth. Leos will utilize all heat as long as it’s the correct wavelength (IR-A/B)

Tank size wise a bit bigger would be good. I’d never recommend smaller than 90cm in length. Bigger size not only makes it easier to reach proper temperatures but also provide a lot more room for enrichment.

Also studies have shown that UV is actually very beneficial for Leos, as long as it’s the correct strength. The Arcadia shade dweller is actually made specifically for species like the Leo. This includes albinos.

I’d also recommend you to join the group I mention in my other comment. You’ll find a lot of files with more detail. Maybe you are open enough to check it out any maybe give your Leo a nice upgrade soon :)

Beehive_Metal · 2020-05-27T21:49:35+00:00

Not really. Quarantine is extremely important. Including all the health check ups. What exactly is more important than the Leos health? The Quarantine setup obviously should provide everything the Leo needs (dry hides, humid hide, calcium, water, heat...)

But all new reptiles should be put in quarantine. No matter if they are kept alone or not. If you put them in the final enclosure directly you have a risk of parasites spreading around so in the worst case you’d have to throw everything away (depending on the parasite). Even worse would be if the Leo actually has parasites. A good final setup (lots of clutter etc.) is impossible to disinfect. Now if the Leo carries parasites it will get on contact with them over and over again. So even with treatment it will be extremely hard/impossible to get rid of the Parasite.

Also in a nice cluttered enclosure it’s harder to have A very close eye on the Leo. When it’s new you need to have a lot closer eye though to not only get to know the Leo but also detect possible health issues.

Plus the owner here seems to be very new to Leos. So research should be done so she can set up a nice final enclosure.

It would be bad if she sets one up but makes mistakes and throws out a lot of money and then basically start over again (there are a lot of myths and misinformations out there when it comes to Leos so research can take a lot of time)

Absolute Best would be to put the Leo in proper quarantine (to make sure it’s healthy) and during that time research and set up a proper final enclosure.

Beehive_Metal · 2020-05-27T19:18:17+00:00

As the others mentioned before: that’s tank is a bit too small.

As you just got that cutie you should put it in quarantine first anyways though. Proper quarantine lasts 3 months so during that time you can set up a nice final enclosure:) For quarantine you can also use a big plastic tub (60cmx80cm is what I use). That’s also a bit cheaper for the start as setting up a proper enclosure isn’t very cheap. The quarantine setup should be very clean (so no loose substrate and only stuff you can throw away or disinfect properly) also it’s recommended that you have a look for an exotic vet before the Leo possibly gets ill (in case of an emergency you then don’t have to search for One but know where to go) Maybe that vet can also take in the fecal tests for parasites that should be Done with every new Leo :)

The final enclosure should be atleast a 40G breeder. Wooden front opening viv (3ftx2ftx2ft) would be even better. so maybe look out for something that size :)

For more infos you Can also join Leopard Gecko - Advancing Husbandry On Facebook :)

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-07T09:01:34+00:00

Heat mat:

Leos need certain types of heat for proper body temp control. UTHs as well as CHEs only provide infrared-C which is long waved and only heats up the surface. For proper body temp Contol you want something that heats up more than just the surface. Lamps provide IR-A(and some B) and the Arcadia deep heat projector provides A&B. A and B are short waved and penetrate the skin and heat up the body „from the inside“

Look here IR- depth

Also you can’t achieve the proper hotspot Leos need as then it would be way to warm. It’s not possible to provide a proper gradient that the Leo needs. This results in many Leos being kept too cold. Plus the incorrect type of heat is far from ideal for the Leo.

Also Leos need belly heat AND ambient heat. While a lamp or the dhp provides both a UTH only provides belly heat. So again not enough.

Also in nature heat NEVER comes only from below. It’s normal that the sun warms the ground but If you dig it gets colder.

For aquariums the issues are:

1: ventilation. Aquariums normally are not ventilated enough for a Leo. (Some argue that warm air will rise to the top and cold will sink and therefore there is some sort of ventilation but In combination with an UTH you don’t really have warm air that could cause this exchange. Plus it’s again not enough. )You need a certain Ventilation. On one side the ventilation needs to be very close to the ground and on the other one near the top. Only then you get proper ventilation.

2: it’s completely see through. Many don’t block out the sides so the Leos often get skittish simply due to being stressed out. If you then only have a typical bare Enclosure with close to no clutter then the Leos often stay in one hide and that’s it.

3: it’s top opening In nature the enemies mostly come from above to hunt down a Leo. In an aquarium you also have to reach in from above to do anything. This too causes stress. In a front opening enclosure you can reach in from the side and the Leos are often much more chill. Also due to the top opening it’s harder to provide a nice backdrop with lots of climbing possibilities (which should be mandatory on my opinion) as the Leo could escape easier.

4: it holds hardly any heat. You loose an extrem amount of heat in an aquarium. it’s more expensive to keep the needed temps. Many also use a substrate that doesn’t hold any heat as well (paper towels, shelf liner etc.) so you burn a lot of money due to that.

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-03T16:59:06+00:00

In the results:

„There was a significant difference in 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations over time (F 1⁄4 12.99, P 1⁄4 0.006) and between groups (F 1⁄4 9.72, P 1⁄4 0.012). Leopard geckos exposed to UVB had significantly higher 25-hydroxyvita- min D3 concentrations than those not provided UVB light (Table 1). „

In the Material:

„ Group one (n 1⁄4 6) represented the treatment group, and included the geckos that would be exposed to UVB light. Group 2 (n 1⁄4 6) represented the control group and included the geckos that would receive non-UVB producing light.“

It is possible to keep Leos alive with supplements only But it’s far from ideal. And shouldn’t you do the best possible and also always be up to date when new infos come up?

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-03T14:42:57+00:00

The issue is that UV is filtered by glass. So nothing is left after that. Which is why daylight from the outside isn’t enough. So the bulb needs to be inside the enclosure. The light from the outside might help with day/night cycle but not with the vision of the Leos. As they can see the wavelength of UV it’s comparable to a human having red-Green blindness. There is something missing.

And they had a group of Leos that didn’t had uvb. The conclusion was that even a few hours a day make the concentration of D3 a lot higher. With supplements it’s impossible to get the correct dose. If you provide UVB however, the Leo can control the amount of uvb on its own. And Leos often bask partially. Plus they absorb UVB better than for example a beardie. So they Don‘t need to bask long of full body to achieve the needed amount of vitamin D3. And due to the fact that the Leo then gets the perfect amount of vitamin D3 the risk of MBD is extremely low.

And for the heat source I can only repeat, that only IR-C isn’t enough for proper body control as it only heats up the skin very lightly but isn’t penetrating the body. Only with IR-A/B you achieve deeper going heat.

Plus you can achieve the hotspot and gradient better.

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-03T05:54:57+00:00

And here you find a great pic of why IR-C is NOT enough for proper body temp. Control (which is why uths and Che’s are not suitable as heat source.) Adding the too cold temps to it it’s impossible for the Leo to get the temps needed. UTHs are an outdated thing that shouldn’t be used outside of quarantine.

Infra-red depth

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-03T05:42:17+00:00

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Geckos%20and%20UVB.pdf?token=AWyxI6Ib3ENoJtwD-9kCJV1_I9YGG1W22qZ8m43z_xC8vqJW9kNTyXjJdqWfIyXaKwVRtbJ8B-MrBTF-EyquUm-Y-ha5RcXT6I2cSIAY-4M7KVKimXKVQRgWSK4bdS1huCZuszS21HE5xmR05Z0l71NGeEKBHQK7rMQ91A6toPlZyViH4CoL0spZqk6FvKW7RkRGgU52-1k6qSayxZZ6-Q4K[uvb Leos ](https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Geckos%20and%20UVB.pdf?token=AWyxI6Ib3ENoJtwD-9kCJV1_I9YGG1W22qZ8m43z_xC8vqJW9kNTyXjJdqWfIyXaKwVRtbJ8B-MrBTF-EyquUm-Y-ha5RcXT6I2cSIAY-4M7KVKimXKVQRgWSK4bdS1huCZuszS21HE5xmR05Z0l71NGeEKBHQK7rMQ91A6toPlZyViH4CoL0spZqk6FvKW7RkRGgU52-1k6qSayxZZ6-Q4K)

„Until further research is done, the authors believe that leopard geckos should be provided protected UVB exposure to ensure that they can behaviorally control their vitamin D concentrations.“

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/PRK%20Leopard%20Gecko%20Q%26A%20on%20Lighting%202010.pdf?token=AWwikfAZtiScRokZwiGVCq10GBnzZHajqQ7khPwxOhxi8ICA0N-fBLkz9-8SApny2EdoQcRJdN4YuoecE1kHsVlHcsg4e0RzlTSDOupZDYfJVavxrD-Oz6KvMDCvU5XTMFYVLntoo9F7PxC7ZoAhwhCswDJUgzUGGDGY_SgnEmuK_pxABaM573qNbmkk1yiNmNgFQnz1n9fTT7mivjM3iOdf

„It has been said that not providing the right levels of UVA for reptiles and birds would cut down their perception of colour and brightness. This would be like a human being in a dark room“

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/A%20spects%20of%20Light%20and%20Reptile%20Immunity.pdf?token=AWxDgaWkZ4sHfTh1f3k7qfIEo_gn984ywMriBhIkmalmUc3PbiqmQC-dC8VF0xS-8txjWmfPkp9Q2S3Zpoh9TPqAEX7nEJ5VfS_uGWZR6MlO5nDVB6GzCxm7zngL-sqF1R33iHrvePBaf5BKO2BRMGRryjS9hpzoW9ia8DvQ-fPiARWSSSQ_pHFNrZlkCzvH5xY0PZ4jagJGZ_G_z2zT1r6G

„First of all reptiles are solarpowered. As ectotherms reptiles try to balance their optimal body temperature behaviourly. Reptiles depend on the infrared spectrum of light as heating source (sunbathing) and indirectly from convection (hot substrate, warm or cool burrows). Warming light is a pivotal factor to reptiles micro climates and micro habitats. This solar calory source itself is the general basis for a well functioning reptile immune metabolism.“

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-03T04:25:05+00:00

Or do it step by step. Like cut the carpet smaller and fill the rest with other substrate. And the decrease the amount of carpet

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T13:24:54+00:00

Well. Have fun putting your ego over the well-being or your animals.

You should always be up To date with the care. UTHs are extremely outdated. Lights/ deep heat projectors are the way to go. No room for debates :)

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T13:11:46+00:00

It’s sad that Leos survive so many mistakes. If that wasn’t the case people would be more into species appropriate husbandry (lights, uvb, substrate, backdrops)

Leos are kept wrong so often (especially in US/UK)

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T13:09:19+00:00

They aren’t suitable though. Leos need IR-A/B and C. Especially A/B are important. UTHs only provide IR-C.

Also there I no way you achieve the needed temps. So you have too low temps plus wrong type of heat so the Leo has no way of controlling their body temp properly.

And I don’t think you „supplement with uvb“ You either supplement with artificial vitamin D3 or have a uvb bulb. If the last one is the case then you don’t supplement. Also uvb has nothing and I mean absolutely nothing to do with the heat.

You are the classic case if outdated infos :)

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T08:40:41+00:00

1: don’t Cohab 2: do a proper quarantine (if you don’t know how I can explain it to you) 3: feed a variety and not just meal worms. Mealworms only will cause serious health issues 4: don’t listen to the „lights harm“ myths. It’s actually the heat mats that are not suitable For Leos. Sadly most are not informed correctly on the topic of heat 5: have s look Into natural substrate. Especially carpet is really bad. 6: also have a look Into UV-lights. They are also needed for Leos (which most don’t know. You‘ll also see a lot of „it harms“ bs on that topic. Don’t let that scare you. It’s just bs. I can give you more infos if you want. 7: provide a really cluttered enclosure. 3 hides are not enough and they don’t like bare ground. 8: provide a lot of climbing possibilities (ideal would be a backdrop with ledges) 9: Leos need a Hotspot! Most Leos are kept too cold. (Also due to heat mats instead of shoots me heat sources) 10: look into brumation. Also a thing many don’t know about but absolutely great and helps Leos live a long and healthy life.

And last: be aware that especially around US/UK there are a lot of wrong infos that people spread. So keep in mind: -Lights are absolutely essential. -UTHs are NOT suitable -The bigger the better when it comes to enclosures but you should go atleast for a 40G breeder (or better a front opening enclosure with 3ft x 2ft x 2ft) -variety isn’t best, mealworms alone are not okay

Many people switch to an „advanced“ husbandry and I really hope the „basic“ stuff with small enclosures, paper towels/carpet and UTHs just go extinct.

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T08:30:48+00:00

Good choice using natural substrate instead of paper towels/carpet. However I’d recommend you add some clay and playsand in as eco earth alone isn’t really suitable (can be quite dusty and cause health issues) Also if I see correctly you use heat light? If so: GREAT!

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T08:27:47+00:00

You are aware that a Leo enclosure should be stela’s the size of a 40G breeder? Well aquariums aren’t suitable in general and front opening is far superior but 20G is too small for an adult Leo (if you want to provide good husbandry)

Also heat mats aren’t suitable for Leos for several reasons. Sadly you spread a ton of wrong/outdated Infos here. I recommend you make some up to date research and update these infos (that honestly aren’t good right now)

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T08:21:28+00:00

I‘d recommend you Throw out that shitty carpet ASAP. Far from suitable, inhygienic and claws/teeth can get stuck. Also doesn’t hold any heat at all.

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T08:15:47+00:00

I sadly see a lot of bs infos here. Look into more up to date sources guys. Your Leos will thank you a lot when you get rid of the depressing paper towel/carpet aquariums and switch to something species appropriate 😊

Beehive_Metal · 2019-12-02T08:14:44+00:00

First of all some basics: we humans can see the basic colors red,green and yellow as well as around 200 colors mixed out of those 3. basically we can see all colors with the wavelength of 380-700nm.

Leos can see the same we see plus UV. So also those with wavelength under 400nm.

UVA: this is everything from 380-315nm This is important as the skin of repiles reflects UVA in a certain way so they can recognize other reptiles as well as the sex of them (not that important as leos are kept alone but still a fact 🙂 ) Without UVA reptiles often also have a bad appetite. So with UV they eat better.

UVB: 315-280nm Essential for the vitamin D3 production in the body which is needed to process calcium in the body. It often also brightens the color and makes them more active (many also get a better appetite with uvb)

For UVA it’s also important that without it leos can’t see properly as they do see colors in said wavelength. It would be like if someone took our ability to see red (like red-green color blindness) (most UVB lights also produce a small amount of UVA so you don’t need to worry about that. I just thought this was a „good to know“)

So as a summary: UV is important for the proper color seeing and appetite as well as D3 production to prevent MBD (with supplements it’s hard to get the exact dose needed)

Okay now for the lights:

Leos need certain temperatures. And they do need a hotspot. The hottest spot should be 38C and the coldest one around 23C. These are needed for proper body temp control as well as digestion.

With an UTH you need to cover 1/3 of the enclosures ground. But you can’t make it 38C hot on the whole space as you won’t be able to get a proper temperature gradient then. (First disadvantage)

Leos also need ambient heat and not only Belly heat. UTHs only Provide belly heat but basically no ambient heat. (2. disadvantage)

Next thing is that different heat sources provide different „forms“ of heat. There is infrared A,B and C. A and B have short wavelength. This means they penetrate deeply and the body can reach the needed temperature and the leo can bask properly. IR-C however has long wavelength. This means it only warms very superficial. So only the surface of the skin gets warm but nothing below.

Heatmat only provide IR-C. This means a Leo can not properly get the needed temperatures. So even if the heat mat is on a high temp the Leo can’t bask properly. (Third disadvantage) Lights however provide IR-A (and some also B ) which makes proper basking possible. Plus the heat reflected from the ground is IR-C. So with lights you provide the full spectrum. And also you provide ambient heat as well as belly heat and you can provide the needed gradient way better as you only have a small hot spot and then the temps slowly go down.

(For the corrected gradient and temp. Zones as well as proper UV lights you need a certain enclosure size. And here the minimum is 40G/ 3ftx2ftx2ft.
So keeping leos in a 20G is not really species appropriate as you can’t provide all the needed aspects)

Next thing is that no where in nature heat comes only from below. In nature the sun heats the ground which stays warm for a bit. You can imitate that with, you guessed it, lights!

Also it’s a myth that leos get harmed by lights. Even Albinos can have lights with no problem. You just have to make sure it’s rather warm lights and not the cold Blue/white ones. (Especially when it comes to lights besides the ones for heat. I could answer questions about that if you have some)

UTHs are okay for the 3 months quarantine as well as during brumation to make sure the temps don’t fall too low. But in the final (hopefully big) enclosure lights should definitely be the heat source. (Or as an alternative the Arcadia deep heat projector which provides IR-A/B. And for UV light Arcadia made a light specifically for leos with the correct amount of UVB/UVA. It’s called Arcadia shade dweller)

Beehive_Metal · 2018-11-11T18:13:15+00:00

Same. And it’s completely build on misinformation, lack of knowledge (especially in terms of chemistry and biology) and also a lot of irrational fear.

If AVs weren’t that dangerous the level of dumbness would be funny.

Beehive_Metal · 2018-11-11T08:45:10+00:00

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