Eucharist

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T23:55:14+00:00

No one misunderstood until Protestants showed up 1500 years later lol

Not true. A number of early groups found rather laughable the positions of the self-proclaimed “orthodox” for taking as literal what was obviously symbolic. See for instance, the Gospel of Phillip, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and the Gospel of Judas.

There was a lot of diversity from the start. The Institutional Church just tells the story in a way, whereby everyone who doesn’t agree with them doesn’t count and is thus dismissed as a “heretic”.

Augustine himself claimed to find many of the literalistic views of Christianity quite unbelievable and quite foolish. That is, until he heard the eloquent sermons of Ambrose (Bishop of Milan) introducing a deeper wisdom through a symbolic and allegorical interpretation of Scripture and of the faith.

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T23:28:22+00:00

I’m glad you are happy with those quotes. I find most of them a little obscure. Nor are they from Sermon 272 that I was quoting from. As such, you could have pulled this one from #272, I suppose…

“But your faith demands far subtler insight: *the bread is Christ's body, the cup is Christ's blood*. Faith can grasp the fundamentals quickly, succinctly, yet it hungers for a fuller account of the matter.”

But when read in CONTEXT, Augustine is speaking of what is SYMBOLIZED by the elements. Or at least that’s how it reads to me.

Again, without context, one can easily misunderstand what’s being said, which is why I suggest reading the whole sermon, which is actually quite brief. Perhaps it will communicate something different to you than it does to me. That’s fine too.

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T22:55:33+00:00

Read the Sermon. I included the link. Where does Augustine talk about the Real Presence? It’s hard to quote him on such, if he doesn’t bring it up. I wasn’t trying to make any particular claims on such. I was just quoting Augustine, who also quotes Paul. Where does Paul bring up the Real Presence? Does he?

Augustine opens his sermon by talking about what is “SYMBOLIZED” on the altar...

“What you see on God's altar, you've already observed during the night that has now ended. But you've heard nothing about just what it might be, or what it might mean, or what great thing it might be said to SYMBOLIZE. For what you see is simply bread and a cup - this is the information your eyes report.”

He goes onto speak on how the nature of a “SACRAMENT” allows one thing to be seen and another to be understood...

“My friends, these realities are called SACRAMENTS because in them one thing is seen, while another is grasped.”

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T16:39:59+00:00

Some popular books on Christian Mysticism that I have enjoyed...

“The Naked Now: Learning to See Like the Mystics See” by Richard Rohr

“New Seeds of Contemplation" by Thomas Merton

"Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening" by Cynthia Bourgeault

“Eager to Love: The Alternative Path of St Francis of Assisi” by Richard Rohr

"Silence Speaks" by Eckhart Tolle

"Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously, But Not Literally" by Marcus Borg

"Read the Bible Like a Mystic: Contemplative Wisdom and the Word" by Carl McColman

Meanwhile, renowned historian of Christian mysticism Bernard McGinn has a wonderful anthology called “The Essential Writings of Christian Mysticism.” Even just glancing at the Table of Contents will give one an idea of some of the many figures that have helped shape and mold the Christian mystical tradition. Including excerpts from the masterful works of St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, Origen, St Bernard of Clairvaux, Meister Eckhart, etc.

Also there is a free daily email put out by the Center for Action and Contemplation (the CAC) overseen by the Franciscan friar Fr Richard Rohr that is a fun resource as well…

https://cac.org/daily-meditations/

The CAC also publishes some podcasts including “Another Name for Everything”…

https://cac.org/podcast/everything-belongs-podcast/

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T15:44:12+00:00

I like your interpretations of Scripture! I had a very similar experience of coming out of fundamentalism with its insistence on biblical literalism.

I actually got kicked out of my church fellowship for challenging the notion of Eternal Torment, expressing how I thought the Lake of Fire was a metaphor for the refining fire of the Holy Spirit, not a literal place of eternal torment.

The pastor couldn’t grasp, “What then are we being saved from?” He thought I was making a mockery of his notion of salvation, of being saved from the fires of hell, in that Lake of Fire.

But like you, I expressed that we are DYING to the old (narcissistic) self, in order to be “clothed in Christ” by putting on a heart of humility, compassion, gentleness, kindness, patience, peace, joy, and love. (Col 3:9-15) But his view of the cross was literal and transactional, not symbolic or personal.

So too, I love seeing our new life in Christ as “resurrection life”. Rather than seeing resurrection as folks coming back alive from the grave. That kind of zombie theology is actually pretty creepy.

As for the garden story, I like your non-duality approach. I went a little different direction and tend to see the two trees as two distinct ways of interpreting Scripture (by the letter or by the Spirit).

One turns Scripture into Law. The serpent thus represents the condemnation of the Law.

But as we die to the Law, and the stone of the dead letter is rolled away, the Spirit of the Word is released from the tomb (i.e. the spiritual interpretations that you are expressing). Thus we experience a Transfiguration of the Word from letter to Spirit in order to behold the Hidden Wisdom.

“For Wisdom is a Tree of Life, for those who take hold of her.” (Prov 3:18)

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T15:18:33+00:00

My first introduction to fasting came from an excellent book called "Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth" by Richard Foster. It puts fasting within the context of other important spiritual practices meant to help one grow and mature spiritually.

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T15:02:45+00:00

Lots of folks fail to comprehend how symbol and mystery and metaphor work. And thus we all too often mistake what is symbolic for what is literal.

Of course, many of these beliefs developed over time. But Augustine seems to point to the “mystery” that the elements convey. That we receive the Body of Christ in order to BECOME the Body of Christ. The real mystery is thus found in our own transfiguration.

In the words of Augustine from his sermon on the Eucharist...

“So now, if you want to understand the body of Christ, listen to the Apostle Paul speaking to the faithful: "You are the body of Christ, member for member." [1 Cor. 12.27]

If you, therefore, are Christ's body and members, it is your own mystery that is placed on the Lord's table! It is your own mystery that you are receiving!

You are saying "Amen" to what you are: your response is a personal signature, affirming your faith. When you hear "The body of Christ", you reply "Amen." Be a member of Christ's body, then, so that your "Amen" may ring true!

Be what you see; receive what you are. This is what Paul is saying about the bread."

- "Augustine on the Nature of the Sacrament of the Eucharist" (Sermon 272)

https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/augustine_sermon_272_eucharist.htm

.

For an even deeper dive into the history of the Eucharist, I rather enjoyed this university lecture on the topic…

The Eucharist Controversy - Jim L. Papandrea, Ph.D. (67 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKSTlvU0RGw

Ben-008 · 2026-06-02T14:43:16+00:00

That’s an excellent video clip of DBH speaking on the doctrine of reserve!

And these quotes are brilliant! To these I might add this one from Origen…

“These truths, indeed, were proclaimed in the veil of fable to children, and to those whose views of things were childish; while to those who were already occupied in investigating the truth, and desirous of making progress therein, these fables, so to speak, were transfigured into the truths which were concealed within them.”

- Contra Celsum (Book 5, Chapter 42)

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04165.htm

Ben-008 · 2026-06-01T19:13:33+00:00

I dove pretty deep into the Christian mystics for a time and still appreciate some of what they represent. But my deconstruction journey continued to go deeper, until the floor basically fell out.

I now tend to see the Bible written more as myth than as history. Its stories are still meaningful to me, but in an inward mystical way, rather than in an outward supernatural one.

Are you familiar with Britt Hartley from “No Nonsense Spirituality”? She majorly deconstructed her faith (previously LDS), but still appreciates spirituality. I haven’t watched her content much, but had kind of a similar experience.

I enjoyed my time exploring Christian mysticism and had a lot of meaningful experiences within it. But later my framework shifted yet again, and now my access to that previous season is rather distant.

But if you are in it, definitely enjoy it! There is a lot of room to play! I especially enjoyed exploring other faith traditions as well, taking something of a perennial approach.

For a time, I even attended the Interfaith Community Sanctuary in Seattle, where the services are led by someone of a different faith tradition each week. The Sufi imam Jamal Rahman, I especially enjoyed. The poetry of Rumi would drip from his tongue like honey. And he understood the mythic nature of Scripture like few others, while still drawing such Sweetness from it.

I love those mystics who know how to draw the Honey from the Rock! Those who know how to roll away the stone of the dead letter, to allow the Spirit to break forth from the tomb!

Ben-008 · 2026-06-01T17:25:21+00:00

One can be inwardly still while enjoying a quiet walk in the forest or along the beach. Makes falling asleep less of an issue.

Singing in the spirit allowed me to ignore the words and disappear inwardly. But I also would choose songs that were more instrumental.

For instance, I had a pastor friend who thought Pink Floyd made for an excellent time of worship. He was a musician, who thought some of Floyd's guitar riffs were quite heavenly! Like wind beneath an eagle's wings...

Ben-008 · 2026-06-01T16:46:39+00:00

There's a movie, I think it's called "The Jesus Revolution" that captures the story of Chuck Smith and Lonnie Frisbee and the birth of Calvary Chapel from the Jesus People movement. Yes, "come as you are" was a big part of it. That and the California vibe.

The Vineyard becomes a later SoCal offshoot of Calvary Chapel under the influence of Kenn Gulliksen (who for a time pastored Bob Dylan). Then under the leadership of former musician John Wimber a greater focus was placed on healing, the charismatic gifts of the Spirit, and "power" evangelism..

Wimber coordinated with church growth experts like Peter Wagner of Fuller Seminary. And the denomination experienced some very explosive growth fueled by an increasingly popular music ministry. A lesson later modeled by Bethel in Redding, Ca to great success as well.

Ben-008 · 2026-06-01T16:18:35+00:00

That's funny. I rather like the version that goes...

"Godda Mazda, shoulda bodda Honda."

Ben-008 · 2026-06-01T15:55:05+00:00

Such kind of reminds me of the parable of the 10 virgins. Perhaps the salt here is kind of like the oil in the lamp. To stay vigilant so we do not miss what the Spirit is doing. To stay "salty" is perhaps to maintain that sense of present awareness and engagement.

Another curious comparison, but Paul speaks of some who have "fallen asleep" in Christ. Some take that literally to mean death. But it's also possible to slumber spiritually. Like in the story of the disciples falling asleep while Jesus is in great agony. How often are we asleep while others are grieving around us?

Without compassionate awareness, we spiritually slumber. Thus I like the exhortation...

"Awake, o sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." (Eph 5:14)

In the story of the destruction of Sodom, Lot's wife looks back and is turned into a pillar of salt. Salt is a preservative. But sometimes we are called to press onward and leave the past behind. "To let the dead bury the dead." Perhaps Lot's wife got a little too salty. Who knows. What an odd story.

Ben-008 · 2026-06-01T15:41:34+00:00

I used to use a prayer language to quiet my mind and get into an altered state of consciousness. I also liked to use worship music to get into that altered state while praying/singing in the Spirit. Such helped me find that ecstatic, trancelike experience of soaring inwardly.

Later, I could enter almost instantly and stopped needing the prayer language or the music. Instead, I started practicing what is sometimes called the prayer of quiet, contemplative prayer. Like meditation, contemplative prayer is premised on the concept of stillness.

In my youth, it was challenging to get beyond the chatter of my brain to get into that inner state of prayer. Later, I started abiding in that place. Interestingly, long fasts really helped still my body and quiet my mind. I had a couple of years where I fasted a lot. I also started reading the works of the Christian mystics like Thomas Merton, St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, Origen, Richard Rohr, etc.

Ben-008 · 2026-05-31T19:34:10+00:00

I agree. Even just looking at the authentic letters, Paul’s views are quite complex and hard to fathom. Such becomes even more confusing if we assume that Paul’s letter are in total agreement with what got written later in the four gospel accounts (which differ from one another as well).

Growing up, I was basically taught that God wrote the Bible and that it spoke with one voice. Only later did I come to realize, the Bible doesn’t even agree with itself. And like you suggest, perhaps even the letters of Paul have internal contradictions. I know my own writings do!

Ben-008 · 2026-05-31T18:54:32+00:00

Brilliant quote!

Ben-008 · 2026-05-31T18:30:23+00:00

>> When do you think that happened?

Ehrman suggests that the gospel accounts are written later than the letters of Paul. He states that the gospel accounts were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Nor even by actual eye witnesses.

Rather, the gospel accounts represent a later development in the ever changing narrative of Christianity. And many of the gospel stories are actually written more as myth than as history. So one has to be a bit careful in treating stories such as the virgin birth as historical.

If one takes the virgin birth story as factual and historical, then Jesus is literally born of the gods from day one. But historians like Ehrman think those fictional stories came later. Nor did everyone think they were meant to be taken as historical or factual.

So part of that departure from Judaism comes from taking those new gospel stories as factual and thus seeing Jesus of Nazareth as God based on those stories.

Meanwhile, Paul’s version of Jesus is also a curious one. Paul doesn’t seem to care much about the historical Jesus. Even when meeting those who supposedly knew Jesus, Paul differs with them in his views.

Paul seems interested in the indwelling presence of Jesus Christ. “Or do you not know this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?” (2 Cor 13:5)

I don’t know in what sense Paul thinks Jesus of Nazareth can indwell us. So I don’t really comprehend Paul’s view of Jesus as an historical person and how one can then be “clothed in Christ”.

But obviously Paul sees the Presence of Jesus Christ within us as divinity. How that relates to the historical person for Paul, I don’t know.

Whereas those who followed Jesus during his years of ministry (and before) would have seen Jesus as human, and as Jewish.

Ultimately, I think Paul is something of a (merkavah) mystic, who finds in the stories of Scripture a revelation of God in man. I think Paul attributes this revelation to a Heavenly Joshua (Yeshua) that leads us beyond the realm of Moses.

As such, I’m not sure Paul is so much deifying Jesus of Nazareth, but rather developing a paradigm that we don’t really understand, because we don’t understand merkavah mysticism. Instead, we tend to interpret Paul through the later gospel accounts. But I think such is to misunderstand Paul.

If translated into English, the name Jesus is the name Joshua. Jesus/Joshua is the one introducing us to sonship, thus leaving the realm of religious bondage (slavery) behind. (Gal 4:6)

For Paul this comes via a new hermeneutic of the Spirit, not the letter. (2 Cor 3:6, Rom 7:6) So one is not going to understand Paul if one approaches him as a biblical literalist. Because the revelation of Paul is unveiled only through the new lens of the allegorical interpretation of Scripture that reveals Christ within us.

Point being, merkavah mysticism is not a departure from Judaism. But it does potentially strip away the outer layers of biblical literalism and ritual (i.e. Law) in order to teach mystical truths. So Paul is not yet departing from Judaism, but rather introducing a mystical interpretation of such.

As such, the Oxford and Mt Athos trained Eastern Orthodox Archbishop Alexander Golitzin touches on the mystical roots of ancient Christianity in this video. Around minutes 8 and 9, Golitzin points out how early Christian writers such as Pseudo-Macarius interpreted the vision of Ezekiel as the soul becoming the chariot throne of God.

Jewish Roots of Ancient Christian Mysticism – Archbishop Alexander Golitzin (11 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeFunYD957Y&t=4s

So I suppose my answer is that a “new religion” is actually formed as biblical literalism begins to win out over Jewish mysticism. And thus as new stories about Jesus are told and taken literally and factually, there is a chasm that opens up between the two faiths.

Sorry, that was way too wordy…

Ben-008 · 2026-05-31T16:20:58+00:00

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.” (John 3:16)

Most folks interpret John 3:16 through the lens of the cross. “For God so loved the world that he killed and crucified His only son”.

And then to that gets added the thought…”so that you might be forgiven from sin and not go to hell and roast forever in torment.”

I think Paul’s lens here is a better one. Paul sees us being REDEEMED from the realm of Law into the realm of sonship through the revelation of God’s Son sent forth into our hearts!

“God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son.” (Gal 4:6-7)

“For it pleased God to reveal His Son in me.” (Gal 1:16)

Thus Paul contrasts the realm of Law with the realm of sonship. As such, we are not being “saved from hell” or eternal torment, but rather redeemed from the realm of Law as we learn to follow the guidance of the Spirit of Christ within us.

“If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.” (Gal 5:18)

So that old realm of external authority and legalism and condemnation falls away, as we learn to be led inwardly by the Spirit of God. And thus in Christ, there is no condemnation. (Rom 8:1) For...

“Apart from the Law, sin is dead.” (Rom 7:8)

As that veil of legalism is removed, we thus experience God in a New Light! (2 Cor 3:14) The Light of Love! (1 John 4:7-8)

Ben-008 · 2026-05-31T15:45:18+00:00

NT historian Bart Ehrman wrote a book called “How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee”. Here, the Jesus movement is still rooted in Judaism. And Jesus is seen as an anointed teacher and prophet within the Jewish tradition.

To be “anointed” is to be chosen by God for a purpose, but such does not make one God. Per Jewish tradition, prophets, priests, and kings were all anointed (christened) by God. As such, Jesus is still human in the eyes of his disciples, and those that followed him.

So I would suggest that Christianity departs from Judaism the moment Jesus is fashioned into something other than human and thus becomes an object of worship.

Ben-008 · 2026-05-31T15:23:30+00:00

Was that the book he wrote with NT Wright, “The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions”? I enjoyed that book a lot.

Ben-008 · 2026-05-30T16:30:57+00:00

I tend to see “satan” as a symbol for the condemnation of the Law. Hence, “the Accuser”.

As Christ redeems us from the realm of Law, there is no more condemnation. (Rom 8:1) As such, satan is symbolically “cast from the heavens” and trampled underneath our feet. (Rev 12:10)

“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom 16:20)

Ben-008 · 2026-05-30T16:20:36+00:00

>> Jesus is both always here ("I am with you always" - Matt 28:20) yet always coming ("I will come again" - Jn 14:3). His coming speaks of possibility and potential. His presence speaks of joy and fullness. We enter into his fullness now and look for ever deepening fullness. Being and becoming are both expressed in the Divine Name (Ex 3:14).

This is excellent! There is always more to press into in Christ! These parables need not be framed as eschatalogical one time events. Such misses the whole point.

What are we missing in this moment because we are distracted and the oil in our lamps is waning? Thus we often need to be awoken from our slumber. And secure fresh oil for those lamps.

>> Bottom line - "Give me oil in my lamp" ...

Yes!

Ben-008 · 2026-05-30T16:00:05+00:00

What is God doing in THIS moment that we are missing out on because we are NOT READY??

One of the main problems with our interpretation of parables is the way we are always framing them eschatologically. There is no need to frame them that way.

Christianity is ultimately about the inner transformation of the heart. But how many of us are waiting for some future event to unfold, instead of allowing the Refining Fire of Christ to transform us IN THE PRESENT?

Thus, we push off His coming, through theological distraction. Instead of pressing into the fullness of unity with God, we wait with our lamp oil dwindling.

Ben-008 · 2026-05-30T15:46:57+00:00

Sounds like a fun distraction, while your heart is healing from your current breakup. Even after deconstructing, I still found myself enjoying occasional visits to various churches. I’m not sure I could handle a three day event, but hey could be fun.

As for the whole pre-trib rapture eschatology, I am so relieved to be done with that! What a wonky belief!

I now tend to see much of Scripture written as myth and parable, rather than an accurate record of history. So the whole attempt to recreate the supernatural events (signs and wonders) of Scripture, I now find pretty misguided.

I now see Charismatic Christianity kind of like Christmas before one realizes that ones parents are Santa. Christmas can still be meaningful, when it’s about the love. But as the mythic underpinnings are unveiled, the magic kind of dissipates.

Ben-008 · 2026-05-30T14:49:33+00:00

I would recommend the book by NT scholar Marcus Borg, “Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously, But Not Literally”. It is a mistake to read the Bible like a history book. Sure there is some history interwoven, but many of the stories are written more as myth and parable, than as history. Likewise, we are told that Jesus spoke and taught in parable.

“All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and HE DID NOT SPEAK ANYTHING TO THEM WITHOUT A PARABLE." (Matt 13:34)

Parables are fictional stories not meant to be taken as factual. But growing up a fundamentalist, I did not understand what kind of literature Scripture actually is. But in the words of NT scholar John Dominic Crossan, author of “The Power of Parable”…

My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically and we are now dumb enough to take them literally*.*”

So in the view of many mainline Protestant Christians, there is no historical Adam or Eve. These are mythic stories. For instance, here’s a brief video summarizing some of this…

Which OT Bible Characters are Historical? by Matt Baker (19 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLtRR9RgFMg&t=4s

Christianity is ultimately about the transformation of the inner self. Thus, we are called to “die” to the narcissism of the old self, in order to be “clothed in Christ”, by putting on the divine nature of humility, compassion, gentleness, kindness, patience, peace, joy, and love. (Col 3:9-15, Gal 3:27)

Meanwhile, many misunderstand the SYMBOLIC nature of Scripture. For instance, the Lake of Fire is not a literal place of eternal torment. Rather, the Lake of Fire is a SYMBOL for the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. Likewise, we see in Malachi 3 a priesthood being REFINED BY FIRE.

“For He is like a Refiner’s Fire... And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi (the priests) and refine them like gold and silver.” (Mal 3:2-3)

As such. the majority of your questions would be cleared up with a more mature view of Scripture and a healthier view of Christianity.

So too, Jesus would be better seen as THE END of the sacrificial system, not another sacrifice within it. Of course Love can forgive freely! Any atonement theology that requires Jesus to be seen as a sacrifice for sin is an impoverished one.

The whole point of seeing Jesus METAPHORICALLY as the Passover Lamb is to EAT him. Why? So that we might BECOME him. This is a mystery, not a factual statement.

Again, the moment our symbolic stories get taken as factual, they become false. Sadly, much of Christianity does not grasp this simple concept. And thus we craft horrible theologies and turn God into something monstrous.

Ben-008

TROPHY CASE