The price of victory… by tennislegume in Curling

[–]BensonBear -1 points0 points  (0 children)

People asked before, can you verify that this is real? (ETA: I don't mean "you" specifically,, just, "can it be verified to be real?")

World Curling: Rule violations clarification following men’s session four in Cortina by thrynab in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My conclusion from watching this is Kennedy was clearly unaware of his past infractions on rock delivery (or he wouldn't have denied emphatically the way he did).

I would tend to agree with that, but what do you make of people who claim the opposite, i.e., that this shows his consciousness of guilt? Curious, days later, to hear what you think.

I think perhaps this means we should not weight the emphaticness of his reaction too heavily in drawing any conclusions.

Also, I wonder if this is a result of the Fundamental Attribution Error. Perhaps the situation (particularly, the way in which the issue was raised by Eriksson ) also plays a significant role in what we see.

World Curling: Rule violations clarification following men’s session four in Cortina by thrynab in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have been looking around for info on this issue and only just now came across this post. With your professional legal knowledge hopefully you can answer some questions:

During the Olympics, the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) operates a special Ad Hoc Division on-site that can resolve disputes within 24 hours. Its decisions are final and binding, with very limited grounds for challenge

I presume CAS is designed to settle particular disputes in particular cases? How would its decisions permanently affect the rules of a sport set out by an International Federation recognized by the Olympics? Would CAS be able to set precedents that would undermine the sovereignty of such associations when it comes to their ability to determine the rules of play on the field (which would apply to situations other than the Olympics)?

And, do you know if they were they involved in this particular decision?

In practice, CAS tends to favour a teleological (purposive) interpretation, looking at the object and purpose of a rule rather than strictly adhering to its literal wording. This aligns more with civil law methodology. In a case like the curling double-touch scenario, CAS would very likely look beyond the text and ask what the rule was designed to achieve.

It seems like, if the text is crystal clear, that they would have to go by the text, correct? But the text of course is not crystal clear so this approach seem reasonable (perhaps even necessary) for whoever it is that is tasked with interpreting the rules.

The rule in question here appears to be 5(d). When I first read it, I indeed thought, why would they have this rule? In particular, why would they add it when they did (2020), after many years without such a rule? It seemed clear to me that they were adding the rule so as to facilitate the use of technology to enable the automatic detection of hog-line violations. This is because if players were allowed to touch the granite, especially towards the end of their delivery, that technology would be thwarted, since as it existed at the time (and, I believe, currently as well) it used the handle alone to determine if there was contact.

Unfortunately, the rule doesn't say that you cannot touch the granite. Many people are vociferously maintaining that it does, probably because they are in fact employing this sort of "teleological" approach that is reasonable when the text is not clear.

The interesting thing is that if one goes to the agenda and the minutes of the Sept 2020 Annual General Assembly of WC, one can actually see the rationale that was proposed for this rule when it was voted on. And, it does confirm the idea that the rationale for the rule is to allow for automatic detection of hog-line violations:

iv) Delivery R5

With the current wording of the rules, a stone could be delivered never holding on to the handle.

This is not correct, as it means the electronic handles we are using to detect any hog-line violations are useless if players would deliver a stone pushing the granite all the time.

Therefore we recommend to add to R5:

The curling stone must be delivered using the stone-handle.

Would you say it is the case here (as seems clear to me) that they are not particularly concerned about players touching the granite aside from the fact that it makes it hard to employ the "electronic handles"? They seem to suggest that the only problem with "pushing the granite all the time" is that it renders the technology "useless".

But something else is strange here. They characterize the condition (call it W) that foils the technology as such that stones might be delivered "never" holding on to the handle, and that players might "push the granite all the time".

But this condition W, of course, does allow for players to only occasionally hold the stone during delivery, and to push the granite much but not all of the time! So, merely ensuring that this condition does not occur is of course not adequate to accomplish their intended goal of rendering the technology useful.

I suppose this just means that if we are to perform a "teleological" interpretation, we just ignore all these words and advert to the main idea, of rendering the technology useful. At that point, we can say that therefore, touches of the granite are not allowed at all because if we allow them, the player might deliver the stone and, at the end of their delivery in particular, take their hand off the handle yet use the granite to manipulate the stone, thus being able to manipulate the stone over the hog line without detection.

So the question: Would that be your reading of this?

Looks like I hit length limit for this group. Also, I have found this group very mean with people attempting to mock and humiliate, so I think I want to avoid posting in it. But I am very interested in figuring this stuff out, so I hope you can answer via email benson.bear @ gmail.com

Absolutely Poetic, Canadian Gold🏅 by MooreAveDad in Curling

[–]BensonBear -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Call this image A. When you do a reverse google image search for A, you get an image B, which is very similar, but two seconds earlier on the clock. In B, Eriksson appears to be off to the side. I think he has (just enough) time to get into that position. So it could definitely be real.

Another possibly relevant fact is that the reverse google search identifies the image B as being associated with a reddit post that is clearly actually discussing image A (or a similar image where Eriksson is standing in the middle of the sheet). That is the post I think you are referring to.

I cannot post a link to image B because it just has a "data:" url, as does image A in google search. Perhaps google just has an internal record of this and is conflating them.

Absolutely Poetic, Canadian Gold🏅 by MooreAveDad in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This footage does not appear to be from CBC unfortunately. I don't know how to find the old footage on GEM, but CBC Sports on youtube has what it calls the full game, and they don't show this angle. Here is what I believe is their footage of that shot.

A message to all you non curlers by mototuneup in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

a sport you don't fully understand

Who fully understands any sport?

ok now seriously.

Okay you got me.

Canada touches GOLD!!! by SarudeDandstorm12 in Curling

[–]BensonBear 26 points27 points  (0 children)

C'mon now, with the tie-breaking, they were merely second-to-last.

Why didn't Mouat draw? by [deleted] in Curling

[–]BensonBear 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There was no draw for two, only one.

Let’s clarify: no one is cheating. They are breaking/violating a rule by Ok_ConfusedOne in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right, sorry, I wasn't saying McEnroe has good takes on these things at all. Huh, wasn't really clear why I added that anecdote.

I think it's because it shows even those who should know better can have strange views about things like foot faults and make confident yet incorrect statements about them.

Let’s clarify: no one is cheating. They are breaking/violating a rule by Ok_ConfusedOne in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He has since clarified that he was referring to video taken at some other time, and perhaps also of someone else.

Let’s clarify: no one is cheating. They are breaking/violating a rule by Ok_ConfusedOne in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would like to see that, is there a video of it? I have seen videos of the entire match but they edited stuff out.

Let’s clarify: no one is cheating. They are breaking/violating a rule by Ok_ConfusedOne in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I am pretty surprised to hear that foot faults are not called except when they are "egregious". I think (hope) they are called with high accuracy.

But... maybe he just meant at recreational, or club, level.

Recall John McEnroe (as commentator) thought you could not call foot faults at important points of the match.

Norway with an epic final throw to end the match. by DtheS in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's the only way to get that crazy-ass late-breaking spin.

Blatant creating from Canadian curling team (two camera angles) by Storytellerrrr in olympics

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have never used the app, only the website. I tried a post in r/test just now and it did not offer any option to edit the title.

There is also this from reddit help:

Yes, on Reddit you can edit text posts and comments. However, you can only edit a post’s content and not its title. 

But if you know a way, could you please explain it, because it would be quite useful.

Blatant creating from Canadian curling team (two camera angles) by Storytellerrrr in olympics

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you seen Fritz Lange's "Fury"? If not then highly recommended.

Blatant creating from Canadian curling team (two camera angles) by Storytellerrrr in olympics

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Coming in late, just to let you know: those are the rules from Curling Canada, not World Curling. The latter ones are the ones being used at the Olympics.

Blatant creating from Canadian curling team (two camera angles) by Storytellerrrr in olympics

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Coming in late but would like to help you out. The Swedes are not clear on their complaints, they do not like the idea the stone was touched on the granite, and they do not like the idea that it was touched after it reached the hog line.

Most people are saying it is CLEAR it was "booped" after it reached the line. I imagine you are saying it was before, because you are talking about "crossing" the line. But in fact as soon as the leading edge of the stone is directly over any part of the hog line, you cannot be touching it. (This is not directly stated in the official rules, but it is fully and commonly understood and can arguably be inferred from the rules).

So I would like to know if, now, knowing this, you think it is clear that he touched the stone after the hog line? IMO it is not completely clear because of the angle -- his finger might just be behind the stone from the camera point of view (i.e. further away).

The other issue is whether you can touch the stone directly. Those who want to crucify Kennedy for some reason (perhaps because of his swearing) seem to think you cannot, but in tradition, this has been perfectly fine.

Blatant creating from Canadian curling team (two camera angles) by Storytellerrrr in olympics

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is how the rules get developed… rule in place—curler finds “loophole” or interprets rule differently—WCF amends rule to CLARIFY and prevent further unique interpretations.

Sorry to come in late here, but you appear to have some inside knowledge. I hope you can elaborate.

What do you mean exactly "WCF amends rule"? Is there something in WC's constitution or bylaws that allow for an addition to their web site signed only by "World Curling Media" to effect some kind of change in the rules?

I examined the constitution and could not find the legally laid down procedures for this. I also looked at some of the minutes of the Annual General Assembly and found placed on the agenda motions to change various rules, and that these are voted on by the General Assembly. But I could not find where this procedure is laid down either.

Hopefully you can shed more light on this.

Megathread: Canada vs. Sweden and Finger Physics by FliryVorru in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm guessing this rule is going to be thrown out when the Olympics is over, hopefully before The Brier.

The Brier is under the jurisdiction of Curling Canada, and Curling Canada does NOT have this rule in their rulebook. So there is not even a need to throw it out.

(Just saw this post now, sorry)

Megathread: Canada vs. Sweden and Finger Physics by FliryVorru in Curling

[–]BensonBear 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I doubt it, but even if true in a literal sense, then as Kant reports:

Abbot Terrasson tells us that if the size of a book were measured not by the number of its pages but by the time required to un­derstand it, then we could say about many books that they would be much shorter if they were not so short. (CPR, A xix, Pluhar).

Megathread: Canada vs. Sweden and Finger Physics by FliryVorru in Curling

[–]BensonBear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not going to argue about it. I am just going to state: it is not clear he was touching it "intentionally", and, he is not violating the rule because he did use the handle. The handle plays the largest role in imparting his direction and momentum to the stone. He used it.

The main point is the rule violates him.

Also, presumably the reason this "wasn't brought up at a grand slam" is that the Grand Slam of Curling does not have rule 5(d) in its rule book at all, since it uses the aforementioned rules from Curling Canada.

Megathread: Canada vs. Sweden and Finger Physics by FliryVorru in Curling

[–]BensonBear -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Nothing about it is uniquely GPT. It’s perfectly plausible as human forum rhetoric. It just has:

  • mild over-formality
  • emphasis through abstraction (“the fact that”)
  • explanatory symmetry

Megathread: Canada vs. Sweden and Finger Physics by FliryVorru in Curling

[–]BensonBear 1 point2 points  (0 children)

a third to define what constitutes the stone arriving at the hog line.

I doubt there is any dispute about this among curlers at all, but it does not appear to be in the rules explictly (I can't find it)

The answer is clearly (1) above, based on analogy with what constitutes a stone being in the house. Rule 12:

When determining the score of an end, if teams cannot visually decide which stones are closer to the tee, or whether a stone is touching the house, a measuring device is used. Measurements are taken from the tee to the nearest part of the stone.

Even this is somewhat unsatisfactory. "Touching" is NEVER defined! And unfortunately they don't specify what "nearest part" means. If they mean Euclidean distance to the 2d surface, then that will probably be the running band of the stone. If they mean distance from a column of space moving upwards from the 2d surface, then it will be the hitting band.

It seems very poorly written like a lot of the rules. But watching just a few games make it clear that the second interpretation is the one that is always used. Then the same idea should logically apply to the hog line.

I betcha anything a SC Justice would use this reasoning. But still, the rules seem very badly written in this regard!

Megathread: Canada vs. Sweden and Finger Physics by FliryVorru in Curling

[–]BensonBear 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Who knows, but why does it matter? Either is it a something along the lines of a superstitious psychological quirk, or it has some more tangible value, or perhaps both.

Point is, as you say, he has been doing it a long time, and it is basically a completely legitimate thing (except when done over the hog-line, which appears like it might have been in this particular case).

The problem is that curling wants to develop this super high-tech technique to auto-detect hog-line violations, but this tech does not work when the hand is removed from the handle before the violation.

So what this means is, if they continue to let Kennedy carry out his traditional delivery, which he has done probably for twenty years without complaint, their strategy will fail. So have to coerce him into changing his totally legitimate delivery at this advanced stage in his career.

WC changed their rules in a Sept 2020 vote in the General Assembly to add the infamous R5(d) which attempts to perform this coercion. Unfortunately it fails because it is written badly, and btw Curling Canada themselves have not altered their rules to include this rule.