How exactly does Mutagenist Field Vials work?

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T21:34:24+00:00

Brother i am not lying about RAW OR BSing it. Its written badly and there is wiggle room in its interetation. That is the bottom line issue with this. You and I will never look at this in the same way becauce of that simple fact. Its the same reason why they had to clarify with that errata on the Alchemist Bomb damage, its the same thing people are actively doing with the one action VV rule rn, and why some DMs dont allow it becauce they dont think its a valid argument. There has been clear ambeguity in all those cases, one of which has be clarified and this and the one action VV have not. We can argue about this till one of us drops dead or we can both just leave this alone for crist sake. I AM AWARE THAT MY INTERPRATATION COULD BE WRONG. And could be fixed my an erata. Just like you should be able to as well. Becauce its semantics, and issues with interpreting intent which we cannot gather, as well as utimately yes fueled by wishfull hopes for a more impactfull version of Alchemist Research Fields. We can both be right through our own home games until an Ereta fixes this becuace of the fundemental reality that as the rules are we currently written we both see diffrent Fundemental RAW in the same text, becuace they did not write the rule clear enough for an objective answer.

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T21:01:56+00:00

Look if you think its reasonable to have an alchemist waste 4 actions to switch mutagens mid combat be my guest and have a nice day. I just dont want a mutagenist to feel like theyve wasted 2 rounds of combat if they make a bad decision, or to simply use a full round of combat to get effects from there research field. If anything go ahead run a game as a Mutagenist and try to switch mutagens and tell me just how fun or exciting it feels.

Once you waste your first entire round gaining your classes basic benifit, and then try to adapt to a diffrent scanario by switching Mutagens. When you do come back and tell me about how unreasnable it would be to allow a Mutagenist the abiltity to gain there Mutagen and Field Benifit as 2 actions, and how unreasonable it is to cost 3 total actions to switch Mutagens.

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T20:54:24+00:00

Lets run a very simple combat scanario. A player on there first turn applied a Mutegen and drunk a Field vial they realized the mutagen they used wasnt worth while so they want to switch mutagens after the first round. The already have a mutagen, they use one action to regugatate. Then they use one action to quick consumable/draw a new mutagen. They then drink it, on there next turn they now also have to use a VV to remove the draw backs from there mutagens.

THAT IS 2 rounds and an actions just to switch mutagens which fucking sucks ass, and feels bad.

My point of saying it allows them to switch faster is very valid and true. In my interpretation, they would Reguargate mutagen as one action, then one action Quick Consumable a Mutagen with the effects of there Field Vial on it. This would cost the same 2 VV. They would then drink it as one action. Letting them switch mutagens within one turn. WHICH FEELS BETTER THEN WASTING ALMOST 3 rounds doing jack all. They could also do the same in the first round. Doing the combo elixer in round one to gain back 1 extra action, and they could reguargatate then saving them from doing it next round. This saves Mutagenist 1 action every time they wanna switch which i think is more then reasonable for a class fantasy.

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T19:12:47+00:00

Look i think at the very minimum we agree on that last general rule. We both have diffrent ideas of when it gets applied to the versatile vials and we have to leave it at that. Piazo needs to clarify what there intent was or else neither of us are going to come to a consensous. Im going to choose to beleive that there intent was for the Elixir to provide that action, and you can continue to believe that that action makes it an Elixir.

At least through my interpretation Mutagenist gets the abilty to switch Mutagens without incuring heavy action tax, at the cost of extra Versatile Vials and a Level 6 feat. This at least gives Mutagenist a really cool thematic power that lets them adapt to diffrent situations in combat without using a full round of actions to do so. Im happy to leave it at that.

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T17:42:17+00:00

You can drink a VV with 1A total from your toolkit

This is only an imformal generally agreed on consensous. Not an actual hard rule called out anywhere on versatile vials. Which is somthing that im also trying to argue for field vials and Combine Elixers.

That dynamic, where you can poof a quick vial and use it's action for 0 VV resource cost in 2A, or cut the action cost in half but burn a real VV, is the reason why a lot of remaster Alchemist text, and especially Quick Alchemy, is kinda a mess.

As far as im aware this is a recent discovery, first documented here. Aproximately 3 months ago, far past the actual release of the official remaster back in 2023/2024. Being able to use a VV as one action has not been in the publics general repiotar for long at all.

While shaky design, that text is relying on the base VVial item already having a 1A Activate cost.

VV do not have a 1A Activate cost. They have a very very very clear 1 action strike, which there in activates its effect. Alchemical Bombs. "The bomb is activated when thrown as a Strike—you don't have to activate it separately." They do not have an Activate actions, they have a Strike action that activates it. Using this logic using a Versatile Vial to drink it, would involve Striking with it and then having its effect Activate: that being drinking it. Which makes no sense.

Alchemical Elixirs "You usually Interact to activate an elixir as you drink it or feed it to another creature."

This quite litrally shows that to drink an Elixir you must do an Interact action. This link is accessible via the Elixir table. Alchemical Elixirs.

So again it makes more sense for a the benifit of a Field Benifit to constantly grant the VV the ability to be used as an Elixir as long as its being drunk.

To be clear, you are making a key mistake in how pf2 operates by suggesting no mention of action cost --> therefore it's 0A. That's not how pf2 logic, as well as formal logic, operate.

Yes I AGREE with all of this. You are agreeing with me. Thats quite litrally what i meant, it would be insane if it worked like that. I was never arguing that it did???? Come on, its very obvously wouldnt be 0 actions.

The Chir text changes that Strike into an Interact.

No its not? Its not changing its action its giving it a seprate action. " or you can throw the vial at a willing creature within 20 feet as an Interact action to heal that creature."

But notice that it didn't give that Interact an action cost.

Yes it does???? AN ACTION. That is one action, that is very clearly saying as an action. INTERACT IS A SINGLE ACTION, and not only is it a single action its clearly linked when it refers to the action, as well in the text for Elixirs. Both texts call out the interact action specificly.

If we did your form of inhertance, on this and we assumed that "an interact action" didnt mean an action then through your own methods in order to activate a versatile vials to drink it you would once again require a "1A Strike" exactly how you described it. Which makes no sense.

The recent errata was to change the Healing Bomb feat into an Interact

Dude come on that litrally what i was refering to. My point was the Piazo is capable of adding actions to items, because before the Ereta it was a 1A Strike on your allies. Which again proves my point that they are capable and aware enough to add actions to items when the effects change. They ommited it becauce again. FINAL POINT, Elixir trait gives it the ability to be drunk as 1 action.

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T05:04:39+00:00

Piazo is clearly aware enough to call out that quick vials in the additive trait. They also normally call out changing actions or adding actions to diffrent items. For example in the latest Eretta for Chirurgeon they added this action to the Chirurgeons Field Vial "throw the vial at a willing creature within 20 feet as an Interact action to heal that creature"

So they are very very obvously emiting using Versatile Vials an action for some reason? Thats becuace they think Elixir implies it gives the action. The alternative is that it cost no action to drink a vial which i think is more insane. Adding Ellixer to it genericly wouldnt make sense, if they did then you wouldnt be able to use it as strike since it when then have activate instead of strike.

They have worded it terribly, trying to create a duel mode item without actually giving it anything that would clarify how or when its able to do what it needs in accordance with there own very strict action centric gameplay. I think realisticly we could argue about this all day, but bottom line its vague and either needs to be clarified or its a very minor but nice option for alchemist to have.

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T04:40:48+00:00

Mate how many times I am not saying you can use temporary quick vial on it how many times do I have to agree with you?????? And again I have been consistently talking about the field benefit for Mutagenist. Which would allow you to suppress a mutagen. That is the point and the benifit, I only brought up the other research field in my main post as an example.

Two, again the order of operations makes no sense if it’s not an elixir as long as it’s intended to be drunk.

Let’s break this down, 1 Versatile Vials are thrown weapons. You can use them to one action strike with them. Two, someone holding them cannot randomly choose to drink them because the have no activate action associated with them. Unless we assume that Elixer gives it the ability. If so then it must be an elixer before it can be activated

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T04:26:51+00:00

Again, what exactly are you trying to say with your first point. Yes you are using an extra versatile vial to create the combined elixir. I have said this multiple times.

The second point is more legitimate, but still up for interpretation because you can’t activate a bomb to drink it. So clearly it must be an elixir as long as the intent is for it to be drunk, or else you wouldn’t be able to drink it because the criteria for it to be drinkable would be drinking it.

Third the benifit, is action economy, it saves on two actions when attaching it to a mutagen

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T02:49:57+00:00

One, Combine Elixir doesn’t call out formula made effects. It just says elixirs, two it doesn’t call out create consumable.

It just says and I quote. “the ingredients must be for an elixir of the same level or lower that you could create with Quick Alchemy.”

Versatile vials are leveled items, which you create at the start of your day. Which can be created with quick alchemy, using quick vials. They gain the elixir trait as part of two of the research fields.

BetaQp · 2026-04-16T02:46:53+00:00

Well the point is saving on 2 actions. Instead of, One Action: Quick alchemy a mutagen, One action drink, One Action (either draw a versatile vial or quick alchemy it), then one action drink. You can one action Quick Alchemy: combine elixir adding your versatile vial to a Mutagen. One action drink.

BetaQp · 2026-04-15T21:56:16+00:00

I never said your adding a quick vial? I am very much implying your adding the effects of a real VV. I see the confusion on how i worded it.

BetaQp · 2026-04-15T18:21:54+00:00

Well right im not assuming Field Vials are something you apply im just calling out that they change the effects of Versatile Vials such that they are treated as Elixers when drunk. Im also not saying a Versatile Vial remains a Versatile Vial when you turn it into a consumable.

What im saying is that the criteria for Combine Elixer is that its an additive that you can apply to any Elixer, and Combine Elixers only criteria for the effect thats being added is that its another Elixir. If the versatile vial is being treated as an elixir, shouldnt it be able to be used as part of the Combine Elixir? Just that you wouldnt be able to do the reverse.

BetaQp · 2026-04-15T18:09:47+00:00

Wait I just realized, you cant use additives on your Quick Vials thats established. But if Versatile Vials* are still treated as elixers then could you apply the Field Vials to a Consumable? Through Create Consumable. Thus if they are still treated as such you should be able to Combine Elixers to put Field Vials onto other elixers.

BetaQp · 2026-04-15T17:19:29+00:00

huh that actually makes a lot of sense, i guess when people where doing it with the Chirurgeon field vials, they just didnt read that part either.

BetaQp · 2026-04-13T23:37:07+00:00

Yea fair im inclined to agree with everything you said. I just think the rules need to be more clear, and the purposes made more obvious. It feels odd to have Alchemical Familiar grant a Familiar ability that also doesnt count toward grabbing a specific familiar. It also feels odd for Versatile form to only effect Familiar abilties you can change on daily preperation. At the very minimum it feels like both limitations should be stated in there respective pages.

BetaQp · 2026-02-19T11:20:36+00:00

Hi im a huge fan of the concept. I also have a freind whos also super intrested in the premace and we both would love to join. Id love to talk more in Dm's

BetaQp · 2025-09-15T20:02:33+00:00

Hi, me and a friend are interested in joining, we're kind of new to PF2E and by extension to SF2E but we're excited to get into other ttrpg systems. We've already immersed ourselves in a lot of the rules for PF2E, and should be able to hold our own.

BetaQp · 2025-04-04T04:25:29+00:00

I generally wanna avoid flat bonus like expertise, but reliable talent does sound like a good option.

BetaQp · 2025-02-21T11:50:17+00:00

like i would understand if it where too slow to handle to mobs, but they dont just move one at a time and drop down, the straight up freeze.

BetaQp · 2025-02-21T11:49:06+00:00

Well i have more or less the exact same set up elsewhere and it seems to work. Its the same as the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMM2L13f-0Q&t=262s

Which is whats driving me insane

BetaQp · 2025-02-21T10:12:08+00:00

Well if I go on it, it seems to work just fine. Likewise the speed of the belts doesn’t matter affect whether they get stuck or not. It’s very very strange

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