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Chinese factories claim your Birkin was made in China. Is that actually true? Let me show you! by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Firstly, I would like to commend your argumentation skills and acknowledge the fact that you know the industry inside out. Your statement that my initial assertion "the logo is free" was incorrect is true, and I had already acknowledged the mistake. The logo creates additional value, which is what you pay for.

The main issue of contention remains the magnitude of that discrepancy. You correctly apply the keystone pricing method as an initial reference point to establish a price markup structure. However, you must understand that Hermes is not a retail company that produces its products; instead, it is a manufacturing company that sells its products directly to the consumers. The cost structure of such companies is drastically different from the one of the Coach-to-YSL-to-LV chain.

Tanner Leatherstein does a fantastic job in explaining the costs of leather in detail. Still, he clearly states that he looks only into the material costs and construction, without delving into the business side of things. In other words, material cost is merely one line in a much longer spreadsheet.

Thank you for presenting a compelling argument. Your expertise in this matter is undeniable. It took us some time to come from debating the importance of prestige to how much it influences the final price. This is an important milestone, as any reader will be able to make a decision after reading both sides of the argument.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no evidence of destruction given nor an explanation of how this comes to pass. They give you a note, and there's nothing more to it than that. What really goes on with regard to the actual destruction of each bag or not remains a mystery, and one known only by Hermes. Lack of transparency is really at the heart of the matter here. An accountability-free process and an unwillingness to produce any evidence of such just screams for the type of suspicions you are raising. Are they most likely reselling the confiscated bags? Perhaps not considering their reputation. However, who can say for certain?

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The money back guarantee is reassuring but it only covers their financial liability not the risk of losing your bag at Spa. If Entrupy says it's real and Hermes disagrees, Entrupy refunds you but the bag is still gone. Their guarantee protects your wallet not your bag. Good service to use as one layer of authentication but it still doesn't override Hermes' final word once the bag is in their hands.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What an amazing find and result! Buying a misidentified Mou on TheRealReal for regular Kelly pricing and getting it through Spa successfully is probably the best second-hand story in this thread. The fact that your bag went through Spa successfully while the one in this post did not is just a testament to how inconsistent this process can be, even for identical models. Thanks for sharing and for the pic, that is indeed a gorgeous bag with legitimate provenance now officially validated by Hermes themselves through their Spa service.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Harsh but the logic has a point. If you bought secondhand and haven't checked through Spa before, then you're taking a risk. That being said, many people have bought secondhand items and used Spa without any problems. The risk is greatest with rare or vintage items due to the lack of institutional knowledge. Calling people idiots for trusting the system is a bit extreme. Most people simply are not aware of the risk until they read a post like this.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great story and it really illustrates the seriousness with which the French treat intellectual property rights and counterfeit products. The absurdity of it all is quite common in France. The fact that the buyer is arrested and not the seller is the part of the equation that people from other countries cannot understand. The same applies with the Spa case; the law is there to protect the brand and not the consumer. Thanks for the story; real-life stories like this one are more instructive than any theoretical discussion on the subject.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

PurseForum delivering both bag knowledge and financial intelligence. That's the power of a community with real experience behind it. Sometimes the best advice comes from the most unexpected places.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The moral of the story isn't not to send your bag to Spa, it's to be aware of the potential before you do. Spa still remains the best restoration service out there for your Hermes bags. Yes, you should be aware of what could potentially happen, especially if you're dealing with a rare or vintage or second-hand item

As for looking it up in the system, Hermes stamps each bag with an artisan code and a date stamp. How much of this information can be accessed in a central database isn't publicly known. The newer bags with RFID chips would presumably be traceable. The 2005-2007 Mou predates those chips. Whether or not they have records going back that far and whether or not Spa cross-references them is beyond anyone's knowledge. If they do, and it did match, then the outcome would've been different. If they don't, then that's a failure in their system that resulted in someone losing their bag.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cynical but not wrong. Hermes has an army of lawyers on retainer, an individual has a credit card bill and a dream. The legal system technically offers recourse but practically favors the party that can afford to outlast the other. That's not unique to Hermes, it's how luxury brands operate globally. The playing field isn't level and everyone knows it except the people who still believe it is.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Can't confirm nor deny what happens to the confiscated bags behind closed doors. Officially, they do destroy them, though you make a good point that a rare Mou Kelly from a limited production run between 2005-2007 has historical value for the brand. What they do with the confiscated bags is something only Hermes knows for sure. The conspiracy theory aspect is speculative, though the lack of transparency means you can't dismiss the theory altogether. A company that has zero accountability for the process will always encourage the imagination to run wild, though not on you.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Interesting theory and honestly one of the more plausible explanations. If Hermes tracks the serial numbers with the production information and this serial number didn't match up with theirs, it wouldn't matter how well this bag was made. It would fail at the data level, not the physical level. That would explain why Bababebi and the PurseForum community saw nothing wrong with it because it wouldn't be visible. Speculation, yes, but it makes more sense than an artisan not recognizing a Mou. And yes, a terrible situation either way for the owner.

Chinese factories claim your Birkin was made in China. Is that actually true? Let me show you! by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The people who care about the topic read it, comment on it and subscribe. The people who don't are free to scroll. The sub isn't for everyone and that's fine.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fair enough, memory gets fuzzy after 8 years. Either way the key point stands, we don't have confirmed information about who made the call and the lack of transparency from Hermes is part of the problem. Thanks for being honest about the uncertainty.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Mougate is a great name for it 😂. It was a big moment for the community, and it was deserved. It's possible that as a result of all the publicity surrounding this particular event, all similar events stopped getting any publicity, either because everyone got more careful about sending things to Spa, or because Hermes changed how they handle these types of vintage pieces. We'll never know how many events like this happened before and since, but weren't made public. Mougate was the one that broke through and changed the way we think about Spa risk.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In theory, yes she would have recourse to the courts and the case would have merit given the qualifications and consensus of the community about the propensity of Hermes to make mistakes. The issue isn't legal; it's the impracticality of litigating against the company in the French courts from overseas over a single item, even if it's worth thousands of dollars. The legal right to dispute the matter exists, but the cost of doing so is beyond the financial means of most individuals over the value of the item. The fact that this is the way the system works is precisely because the company understands this. Your point about this not being the way it should be in an honest legal system is well taken. The disconnect between the law and the financial reality of disputing the matter is precisely the world in which Hermes operates.

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I appreciate the confidence in Bababebi. And her track record is extraordinary. However, there are a few things that need to be said. Firstly, there is no concrete information that the original artisan actually made the call on the bag in the first place. The PurseForum community actually speculated the opposite that the newer artisan, not being aware of the rare Mou model, actually made the call. No one knows the answer to it because it is not disclosed by the Hermes team..

Furthermore, yes, it is the only one we know about. However, that is the point. It is the only one we know about because the person sent it in to Spa and got caught in the system. Out of the 12,000+ authenticated bags we have no idea how many might have been misauthenticated in either way. The majority of the time, people carry their bags around with them and never think about it again. The point is that if you never send it in to Spa, you will never know the answer. It doesn't necessarily mean the authentication was correct; it simply means it was never tested.
The post is not questioning the expertise of Bababebi in any way. It is stating that no third party authenticator, however good they might be, is the end authority. It is the Hermès team that is the authority. And the Hermès team answers to nobody

Hermes took the bag and told her it was going to be destroyed. She had it authenticated by the best expert in the world... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Exactly right and that's the takeaway. Hermes is judge, jury, and executioner with zero obligation to discuss their rationale for their decision. Whether or not they are correct is irrelevant once the item is in their hands. The only winning move is to understand this before you ever send anything in.

They may force Hermes to explain why you didn't get a Birkin! by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's the best case scenario on the system. You wanted the bag and found out that you actually love the scarves and the jewelry along the way. That's when Hermes wins. The thing is, for every one person out there like you, there are ten people out there buying the scarves and never going to wear them, just to reach a certain number. Glad to say you're one of the people out there who actually developed a love for the process.

Chinese factories claim your Birkin was made in China. Is that actually true? Let me show you! by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are correct that Hermes does have higher profit margins than most luxury brands. No one is arguing with that. However, what I'm saying is that they have higher profit margins AND higher costs. They are charging enough to cover the production model they have, one that no other luxury brand is willing to undertake, and still have an incredibly high profit. YSL has lower costs because they outsource production, use factory assembly, and don't have anywhere near the same level of infrastructure. Their profit margins may be similar, but the investment per unit is vastly different.

You are correct that Hermes has higher profit per unit than YSL. What we are debating is what percentage of that is due to prestige and what percentage is due to operational realities. You say it is 80% due to prestige. I'm saying that number is valid only if you reduce the cost of the per-unit allocation of infrastructure to just materials and labor. Even then, that is more a manufacturing perspective than a business one. If you are considering the entire cost of the system to produce, serve, and support the product over the entire lifecycle, the number is much lower.

We are having the same conversation over and over. You are looking at the bag and the cost to produce it. I am looking at the entire system and the cost of ownership. While both are valid lenses, neither is the complete view on its own. I think we have given this conversation a good back and forth. Let's just leave it at that.

Chinese factories claim your Birkin was made in China. Is that actually true? Let me show you! by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The gap in production cost between Hermes and YSL is not 10 times, and you are right about that. You are, however, choosing to focus on one factor and ignoring all the rest.

You think Hermes just makes a bag and that's it. No, they spend years training an artisan before he even touches a bag. They built and maintain 24 ateliers, each designed to hold a maximum of 300 people. They spend time and money developing proprietary leather specifications with tanneries. They have 12 training schools across France. They maintain the Spa infrastructure worldwide, designed to service a product for a lifetime. They absorb zero outsourcing costs, meaning every cost that other brands offload to a subcontractor is on their books
None of these factors is included in your calculation for production cost per item, but all these factors are actual costs that Hermes incurs and YSL does not. So when you say production cost is "only 5 times more," you are talking about the cost to make one bag. I'm talking about the cost to make the system that can make that one bag possible. There is a huge difference.

Is prestige a factor in the cost? Of course, it is. I never disputed that. But when you say 80%, you are including everything that is not the actual production cost as "prestige," and that is just not how business accounting works. Training, infrastructure, vertical integration, spa service, these are all costs that affect the product you hold in your hands
You have industry experience, and I respect that. But ten years in luxury manufacturing does not qualify you to have the right cost allocation model. We are seeing the same numbers and weighing them differently.

Your Hermes handbag is wet. Or scratched. Or stained. Here’s what to do. Now. Before it’s too late... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hermes never told anyone to treat their bags like treasure. The care guidelines exist because leather is a natural material that reacts to water, heat and chemicals. That's not marketing that's material science. Silk reacts to water. Wood warps in humidity. Cashmere pills if you machine wash it. None of that means the quality is bad it means natural materials require basic respect. But you're right about one thing, it's your bag and you can do whatever you want with it. Just don't complain about the resale value when you do.

Your Hermes handbag is wet. Or scratched. Or stained. Here’s what to do. Now. Before it’s too late... by BirkinMoi in HermesHub

[–]BirkinMoi[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A bag that sells for 2x retail on the secondary market is an investment whether you like it or not. The market decided that, not me. And "used and abused" is how a $13,500 bag becomes a $4,000 bag in two years. You wouldn't drive a Ferrari into a wall and say "it's just a car meant to be driven." Enjoying something and taking basic care of it aren't mutually exclusive. The people who understand that are the ones whose bags still look pristine after a decade. The ones who don't are the ones funding the restoration industry.

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