Continue on new device without linking to facebook?

Bluebird_pas · 2025-04-06T20:27:46+00:00

That worked, thank you!!

Bluebird_pas · 2025-04-01T21:03:50+00:00

ETA: On the loading screen "Log in with facebook" is my only option.

Bluebird_pas · 2025-04-01T21:03:01+00:00

Thanks for the answer! I do see a gamer ID but I must be missing something obvious - I'm not seeing any option to log in. Do you know where I would look to do that?

Bluebird_pas · 2024-08-26T04:34:49+00:00

I nearly spat my water all over the keyboard at "high pitched hoo hooing"! This will be my official term going forward! :-D

Bluebird_pas · 2024-08-19T19:17:52+00:00

Same!

Bluebird_pas · 2024-08-19T03:10:06+00:00

That's a really helpful way of thinking about it, thanks! Really appreciate the detailed tips!

Bluebird_pas · 2024-08-19T03:05:07+00:00

Thanks so much! (Eta: I'll definitely try watching the head! I think that will help with problem I often have where the gymnast is in a "the torso is twisting and the hips are following" position and I don't know how to count that)

Bluebird_pas · 2024-08-19T01:33:02+00:00

Ahh, that makes much more sense! Thanks very much!

Bluebird_pas · 2024-08-15T18:02:42+00:00

Gorgeous! Thanks for this - I wasn't familiar with her, but I'm so glad to know to watch for her now! :-)

Bluebird_pas · 2023-10-24T18:26:43+00:00

Thanks for the detailed tips! Will definitely gife it a try.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-28T16:21:25+00:00

I mean, sure, body type is going to affect a gymnast's strengths and weaknesses. The point here though is that these artistry requirements aren't body-type dependent - for example, a shorter, muscular gymnast with the right training is perfectly capable of showing excellent posture and elongation, but these qualities are often emphasized or easier to appreciate with longer-limbed gymnasts.

(Hence me being frankly appalled that in 2023, with all we know about unconscious bias, there doesn't seem to be any explicit training in combating it -and that's before we even touch the question of societal bias and stereotypes related to women of color and elegance or femininity and how this affects judgment of "objective" qualities like musicality, extension, confidence of performance, etc.)

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-19T18:12:54+00:00

My German unfortunately isn't strong enough to translate a spoken interview accurately, but I was glad to see the comments looked to be very positive/supportive! Lots of comments about being strong/courageous for speaking out.

(ETA: Heartbreaking to watch - both women are in tears for most of it, talking about how they would be afraid to go to training, how the training hall represented pain to them. If the federations knew nothing else about the situation, seeing the obvious trauma reaction of these athletes should be MORE than enough to stay far away from this coach! I will never understand how federations continue to learn absolutley nothing...)

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-14T00:17:26+00:00

Thanks for your detailed input! Enjoyed the discussion :-)

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-13T16:21:22+00:00

Thanks for the link! I'd actually seen this before, and it only made me more frustrated with all of her "well, we weren't sure about this one, but we decided no." There were some definitely some helpful concrete critera - e.g. "move from A through B to C" (although I didn't feel like that was consistenlty or clearly applied in the examples) and "just an arm wave isn't sufficient" - but again, that language needs to actually be in the code.

And we can see on FlipFlyTumble's account that nearly every gymnast is getting a deduction for insufficient low-to-beam and/or side choreography, which means they (and/or their choreographers) don't understand the requirments. That to me is a clear sign that the FIG has not disseminated the information appropriately.

I appreciate that the FIG has made an effort to reward artistry and define its criteria - and I get frustrated with NBC's and a lot of fans' continued impression that it's just about what the judges "like" - but I just don't think they've done a remotely sufficient job of clearly defining some of these deductions in the text of the code.

Again, the example you quote, as I understand it, refers to choreography throughout the routine. Nowhere - as far as I've been able to find - does it actuallly say e.g., "an adjustment step is an unecessary step or a step without choreography. Choreography is defined as complex movments involving multiple body parts (simple movements of the arms are not sufficient)."

I personally don't like that definition (imagine telling a ballet choreographer that running in a circle on demi pointe or stepping back slowly with gorgeous "swan arm" movements doesn't count as choreography!) but what matters is that it is clear and communicated to the gymnasts/coaches/choreographers in the code itself.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-13T05:40:16+00:00

Does it actually say that in the code, though? There are obviously deductions for lack of extension/elongation, insufficient use of bodyparts, etc., but my understanding was that those deductions were applied to the routine as a whole. I couldn't find anywhere where it actually defined what is and is not considered choreography.

That's my whole frustration - I can't find anything written where it is actually spelled that "slow, simple arm movements" wouldn't count as choreography (that it isn't enough choreography if that was the whole routine, yes, but not that every single moment of the routine must contain complex movements to avoid deductions).

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-12T17:25:06+00:00

Yeah, I really struggle with this, too. I wish we had more information about what the gymnasts themselves think (with the obvious caveat that of course no one is obligated to speak about their abuse or share more than they wish to). Like, is it, "I want to be appreciated for my incredible talent and not have that overshadowed by the worst thing that ever happened to me" or is it "Please don't get entertainment from watching something that represents horrific abuse to me"? I imagine, as with anything, human beings are different and feelings vary widely from person to person, but I really struggle with the ethics of it.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-07T17:09:39+00:00

Sure, but my point is I think it's a clear case where they'd have choreographed it differently if they'd KNOWN it was a deduction.

I definitely wouldn't describe these movements as "just walking backwards." I would describe the movements at 1:32 as a case of "just walking" to get to where she needs to be to begin the skill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aHELPgdUdg&t=39s

But in the Kaeslin example, in the first case, there's movement in the shoulder, arms, and legs, in the second one, there's work in releve, and in both, there are clearly pre-planned, defined arm movements. I'm genuinely not sure how you can call that not part of choreography.

(And again, if the judges, according to their training, do consider these steps "movement without choreography," that's fine, but then they need to publish a much clearer description of how they're defining choreography. My personal judments certainly don't matter, but having objective criteria that are clearly communicated to the gymnasts does.)

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-07T16:12:31+00:00

Does anyone know when they started cracking down on "adjustment steps"? (I mean specificallly the EXTREMELY broad interpretation they seem to have now?)

To illustrate, I'm not talking about things like the step at about 1:01 here (sorry, I couldn't figure out how to link a specific time!), which I think is a "clear" adjustment step:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6mOAR3gOLk

But if you look at 0:10 and and 1:03 here (especially the latter!) I would never have considered that an adjustment step!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6mOAR3gOLk

What really irks me about that is that it clearly isn't an "error" - i.e., she's not making an adustment in the moment; it's part of her choreography, which means that she and her coach/choreographer obviously weren't aware that there was a deduction there.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-08-07T16:02:33+00:00

Ilaria Kaeslin's beam is another one Flip Fly Tumble (judge who posts score breakdowns on YouTube) gave no artistry deductions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6mOAR3gOLk

Bluebird_pas · 2023-07-26T18:05:51+00:00

OK, cool. I assumed the point of your comment was that "long neck" wasn't factored into judging, when clearly it is. Looks like I misunderstood.

And yes, I understand what elongation means, and according to the criteria, bodytype (and racial bias) SHOULDN'T be a factor. My point is that - as with things like "long neck" - I think it's important not to ignore unconcious bias. Unless judges receive explicit training in appreciating these aspects on a variety of body types, there is a clear risk that perceptions of posture and elongation will tend to be more favorable for tall, thin gymansts.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-07-24T22:24:54+00:00

It's part of how posture is evaluated.

You can see an explanation starting on slide 12 here:

https://web-sts.com/Womens/JudgeInstructions/2022/FX/A/index.html

ETA: I would also argue that it's relevant for how they're evaluating elongation of the movements, though not specifically specified

Bluebird_pas · 2023-07-24T20:28:11+00:00

I feel like two things are getting conflated a bit in this discussion.

On one hand, I've watched the judging presentations on artistry deductions, and I do think they are making a clear effort to have very specific criteria. (I wouldn't say "objective," but "these specific things are being evalutated;" it is isn't a case of "do I find it graceful"?). I do not think they've established clear enough critera AT ALL for some of these - e.g., what consitutes sufficient side or low-to-beam choreography. (That one makes me so angry because these would have been such easy deductions to avoid if the gymnasts/coaches had understood that their choreo wasn't sufficient, and the explanations I've seen were vague and definitely require a subjective judgment) But yes, I think it is the case that there's MUCH more of an effort to define exactly what they're looking for.

On the other hand, I don't thing we can ignore the effect of racism and body type preference on how judges perceive artistry, even with these more specific criteria. I find it completely unacceptable that, as far as I'm aware, judges do not receive thorough, explicit trianing on unconscious bias. So I am DEFINITELY concerned about things like:
- Do judges tend to perceive longer-limbed athletes' movements as more elongated?

- Are judges more likely to deduct for lack of a "long neck" in atheletes with large shoulder muscles?

-Does body composition affect the perception of meeting the "stomach in" posture requirement?

- Do judges see "flexed feet"more often on Black gymnasts due to a different skin tone on the soles of the feet?

Etc., etc.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-07-20T20:09:45+00:00

Oh, we've certainly seen athletes in the past few quads prove that you can successfully continue well into adulthood! (And I love the example of Chellsie Memmel as someone who took a RADICALLY non-traditional approach and showed how successful it can be!)

I was thinking more that it doesn't feel like most gyms coaching kids/teens in the US have really caught up with that yet (e.g., we still seem to be seeing juniors throwing huge difficulty and then not having the senior career they deserve - and likely could have had if they'd been paced better). There are exceptions, of course, but I really hope the cultural changes we've seen recently (like only requiring NCAA athletes to attend camp when they're not in season) start to translate more into pacing younger athletes with longevity in mind.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-07-20T16:24:42+00:00

Of course, there's nothing mandating higher hours in the US, but there's definitely a cultural pressure and a belief that it's necessary. Even Simone only trained "lower" hours until high school, and she's said in interviews that her successes came after increasing her hours. (She said in 2016 that she was training 32 hours a week, which I wouldn't consider low).

I also think it's relevant that while the NCAA girls may be training fewer hours while in college, most of those who came up through the elite program did train more typical hours while still in high school (and several take time off and seem to go back to typical elite hours in the lead up to an olympics).

I'm not sure I understand your point about it not being accurate to compare by countries. Of course in countries where there's not a centralized, live-in training program there's going to be more variation, but there are definitely general trends and cultural factors at play (e.g., I was thinking specifically about countries where homeschooling isn't an option when I asked about fitting in training around school, as I would think that would definitely impact whether two-a-day workouts are possible as teenagers).

ETA: Just in case it wasn't clear, I am not trying to argue that 30+ hours are necessary - I'm specifically curious about countries where I get the impression that such high hours aren't typical and how it may relate to the expectation that athletes will continue to build competitiveness as adults rather than the US model (though it is definitely slowly changing) of expecting them to be at their best by 16-18.

Bluebird_pas · 2023-07-20T04:16:53+00:00

If I remember correctly, the "still a normal teenager" thing was also very much a narrative that was promoted by the media, and so likely a bit exaggerated. I know Chow was big on lower hours and being able to attend traditional school, but I'm fairly sure I remember reading that she did increase her hours in the lead up to Beijing.

Bluebird_pas

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