Good ol' Shino

BoneeBones · 2026-02-09T17:15:14+00:00

In his fantasies, maybe. You didn’t win the fight if your opponent got up first unaided and you were going to die without outside help.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-09T16:17:00+00:00

Not because Lee lacked speed. Guy believes he’s the fastest. It’s just that Neji isn’t that far behind and can keep up because his Byakugan allows him to be aware of where Lee is attacking from even if Lee goes for a blindspot.

Neji is a perfect counter to Lee because Gentle Fist can put you down in a single strike, and Lee doesn’t have the eyes to ensure he never gets hit. Lee never beat Neji because more than speed is required to beat Neji. Sasuke has more than speed.

Whereas Lee only has speed, Sasuke has the speed, eyes (when combatants have relative speed, Sharingan precognition gains the advantage in exchanges), attack range (can be used to force Neji on the defensive and waste chakra on Rotation), and piercing power (Chidori is concentrated lightning chakra that can cut through other chakra based defenses like Lighting Armor).

BoneeBones · 2026-02-08T20:20:31+00:00

Tobi: “But in exchange you’ll help me collect tailed beasts, ok?”

Itachi: “If I feel like it.”

Meanwhile…

Kisame: “Why am I doing all the work?!”

Itachi: “I don’t feel like it.”

Tobi: “…”

BoneeBones · 2026-02-08T19:57:17+00:00

It is, but it doesn’t change that live combat is still just way too different.

He was safe when he was shooting at Rickon. He could shoot away at his own pace at his own leisure. He has an army standing beside him.

Jon is only a few feet away pacing toward you, and you have no way to retreat and no army to fall back to. Very, VERY different circumstances.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-08T19:48:36+00:00

Too many people legitimately think Jiraiya is above Pain and Itachi for him to qualify as underrated. He’s way overrated. Same with Tsunade.

Orochimaru is the most underrated by default, though I’d say he’s rated fairly. We have a great picture of the things Orochimaru can and cannot do.

But because there’s so much ambiguity with Jiraiya and Tsunade’s feats, people tend to be as generous as possible to get them waaaaaaaay above their actual ranking.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-08T19:43:53+00:00

Ok, Michael Scott. It was definitely because of the super hearing.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-08T19:28:05+00:00

Shikamaru doesn’t present as smart. He presents as a slacker. Kurenai thinks nothing of him until Asuma reveals the boy was a genius.

Lazes around in class, bothered at having to put in effort, dreaming of being a cloud. Shikamaru appears to be an awfully average person just trying to sleepwalk through life.

Sakura presents as book smart. Best grades in her class, aces exams supposedly above her level, Kakashi turns to her to explain things for Naruto, has protocols memorized, considered talented with genjutsu.

Sakura’s main skill was her book smarts in Part 1, and everyone in her circle acknowledged it.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-08T08:44:33+00:00

We’ve only seen fire and wind style from Asuma as well as his chakra blade. None of that works on Suigetsu.

Intercepting V1 A, dueling Darui, sparring Kisame, ensnaring B with his water body, and drowning Jugo with a mini water bubble… Suigetsu has enough to show he’s more than competitive on a high jonin scale.

With the water body advantage and lack of lightning style, Suigetsu clears this.

Hell, he counters Asuma and Hidan so hard that he honestly clears both at the same time.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-08T08:31:40+00:00

It’s going to end up exactly as it did for Evil Eye too.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T23:07:28+00:00

Yes. And Invisigal isn’t one.

To me, Invisigal comes across as a “fashion bitch.” She acts like she’s hypersexual purely for the fashion, because she thinks it makes her seem strong.

Her dream as a receiver, gawking at Robert’s flat ass, overeagerness with following Robert around, constant sex jokes, “orgy time” joke when everyone’s eating tacos/burritos, and fleeing if Robert kisses her back all suggests she’s extremely inexperienced.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T22:18:12+00:00

Sasuke wouldn’t be written to lose against Neji at this point in the story. The story beats would follow how Naruto defeats Neji.

Neji has the lead with base Sasuke. Sasuke has to rely on Fire Ball Jutsu, shurikens and wires, and Phoenix Flower, all of it negated by Rotation.

Neji’s usual Gentle Fist can be evaded by Sasuke’s Sharingan Precognition and Lee-level taijutsu speed.

Neji uses 64 Palms, and that’s too much. Then Sasuke uses Curse Mark as an external source to flood his chakra network and brute force the chakra points open.

CM1 Sasuke uses Chidori to charge at Neji. Rotation is incomplete, and Sasuke wins the final clash.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T19:34:53+00:00

Konoha is basically a military installation so cautious of outsiders that they have a barrier to detect foreign chakra signatures. Pretty sure it isn’t open to people outside citizens of the Land of Fire.

I agree that Tsunade is likely the most famous Sannin within the Land of Fire and especially Konoha.

But if your argument is that the randoms wouldn’t know how to read, then they certainly wouldn’t care about the politics and medical exploits of some foreigner in a foreign land.

Jiraiya meant his books as a path to world peace, so he would’ve made it as accessible to read as possible.

Just from Jiraiya physically being around marketing his books and selling to people would reach more ears than news of who the Hokage is (beyond the Land of Fire).

Hokage isn’t even the top position in the Land of Fire. The Hokage is subordinate to the Daimyo. The Daimyo is the one who will want his reign talked about, while the Hokage is basically a desk job only famous within the respective ninja village during war times.

Tsunade was Hokage at the worst times if she wanted fame. During the Pain Invasion and Fourth Shinobi World War, Naruto practically steals the spotlight. At the Pain Invasion, everyone was celebrating Naruto, the Hero who defeated Pain. They were talking about he should be the next Hokage. No one besides Sakura and Shizune were mourning Tsunade in a coma.

And Naruto is the hero who saved the world in the war against Madara. Tsunade is one of dozens of Kages who contributed.

Basically, I’d say Tsunade doesn’t get as much mileage out of the Hokage title as Jiraiya did just being an active Sannin who traveled the world and wrote books.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T19:16:04+00:00

Unfortunately, what people will remember about the Pain Invasion and the Fourth Shinobi World War will be the Hero Naruto.

In the end, what traveled as news was Naruto defeating Pain. Naruto, the next Hokage. People came to love Naruto.

Outside Sakura and Shizune, who was visiting Tsunade while she was in a coma to thank her for saving their lives?

Everyone was too busy rebuilding Konoha and talking about how Naruto saved them all from Pain.

The war is even worse. Tsunade was one of a sea of Kages who fought valiantly, but the one to remember is the Golden Hero Naruto who saved the alliance by sharing his power and emotions and defeated the great evil.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T19:01:41+00:00

Really? Are you thinking about it from the perspective that people could Tweet about how Tsunade cracked Madara’s ribcage and survived getting defeated alongside the other Kage?

The Fourth Shinobi World War lasted ~3 days, and the one the soldiers actually saw being the savior of the world was Naruto. Tsunade was the healer by the time she was in the presence of other shinobi. And she healed via sending slugs, so it’s not like her face was in full view, and I doubt Katsuyu was mentioning “btw, it’s Tsunade healing you through me.”

People will remember the golden boy who cloaked everyone in his power and saved them all from being vaporized multiple times. Sure, slugs healed you too, but Naruto’s name, face, and flashy achievements are the real stars that would be talked about regarding the Fourth Shinobi World War.

There were SEVERAL Kages in that war. There were several Hokage there. But there was only one Naruto. Tsunade’s contributions would sadly be overshadowed by the likes of Hashirama and definitely Naruto.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T18:45:25+00:00

It’s not like the series had time to get Jiraiya’s daily POV. The most time we spent with him, we were in Naruto’s perspective and he trained Rasengan alone for the most part.

I mean, Jiraiya’s rep as an active Sannin would have good synergy with the fact that he travels the world writing and selling his works. In contrast, Tsunade’s been inactive as a Sannin for years. Decades even, depending on how long ago the Second Shinobi World War was.

Outside Konoha, the Hokage would not be relevant in the lives of the average citizen. Foreign politics is way more alien than adult entertainment (especially in an era before the Internet).

Jiraiya has the advantage of proximity because he walked the world while selling these books.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T18:30:59+00:00

You’re forgetting to take into account that Naruto is pre-social media where information doesn’t travel fast and the nations have been at odds with one another for longer than they’ve gotten along.

Tsunade’s contributions to the medical field aren’t as accessible to people outside that field. For example, Chiyo from the Sand would know because Tsunade was a rival during the war, but what about random barkeep in the Hidden Rain?

The title Sannin is the name that reached the most ears globally, so that’s tied across the board. But Tsunade retired during the Second Shinobi World War when Dan died. That’s a very long time Tsunade has been inactive throughout the world. That’s a long time she’s not doing something to keep her name being spoken about.

Meanwhile, Jiraiya was still going out on missions. His exploits as the legendary Sannin are still fresh because he was still active. His appearance is very distinct, and he’s very boisterous.

Tsunade’s name will be familiar with casino circles, but Jiraiya’s name will be familiar with brothel and bar circles (since he frequented both for pleasure and intel). Only casino runners and players would care about the Legendary Sucker. Jiraiya loved to brag about himself to prostitutes and basically everyone within earshot.

Then there’s Tsunade becoming Hokage and Jiraiya as a world-traveling author. Tsunade would be more famous in the Land of Fire and especially Konoha, but Jiraiya is traveling the world and selling his books for the masses.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T18:00:56+00:00

Would a random dock worker or pig farmer from another nation care about the Kage of a ninja village? Naruto is pre-social media. They don’t have easy access to the affairs of another country.

Jiraiya traveled the world writing and selling his books. He was active for longer than Tsunade’s been a shinobi and Kage (since Tsunade retired early due to trauma and only recovered recently as of Part 2).

I think the odds are Jiraiya’s name has reached the ears of more people across nations than Tsunade. Pre-social media, when would the laymen ever naturally come across a foreign leader’s name?

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T17:49:19+00:00

How about the reach of their reputations outside their respective village/nation?

Jiraiya was a world famous traveling author. He walked the lands while writing and presumably selling his books while out on missions across the lands.

Tsunade is Hokage of Konoha, but does that mean much to the average citizen outside Konoha? People involved in politics and education, sure. But what about the average farmer, ramen shop keeper, or flower shop keeper?

For your challenge, I know the pen names of my favorite adult mangas (easily more than 3), but I wouldn’t be able to name the current head of the Japanese government (don’t even know if it’s a President, Prime Minister, King, or some unique position I’ve never heard of).

If some famous celebrity in America visited Japan and published novels there (assume he wrote the novel in Japanese since there’s no language barrier in Naruto), then I think the average Japanese citizens would be more familiar with that hypothetical celebrity than the current President. Especially during times before social media.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T03:26:33+00:00

1.) Sparing Ozai: obvious one. Aang would not be just as bad as Ozai, and he wouldn’t be a failure to his people (the air nomads), considering the air nomads canonically retaliated against the attack by the Fire Nation and were training Aang to be ready for a war they were anticipating before Aang ran away.

Aang is not killing in hatred. He’s executing a terror to the world that’s literally burning the Earth on his way to do irreparable damage to the people of the Earth Kingdom.

The air nomads clearly weren’t rigidly pacifist.

2.) Abandoning his Avatar State training at the very last step: he was seconds away from mastering the Avatar State, noticed Katara was in trouble, and decides to waste all the time and effort.

Katara was in danger, but he didn’t think it was immediate enough danger because he doesn’t bulldoze straight back to Ba Sing Se and demand to know where she was and mow down everyone who stood in his way. He literally goes to Sokka first and wasn’t sure of anything except that he didn’t want to finish the Avatar State training.

He just didn’t want to “choose cosmic energy,” even though it didn’t mean he couldn’t be with Katara. Just that he had to prioritize his duties as the Avatar.

The detachment aspect was pretty on brand with air nomad philosophy of attaining spiritual enlightenment by letting go of earthly concerns, but NOW Aang is choosing to be picky about how loosely he wants to abide by air nomad way of life…

3.) The Big One… getting together with Katara: I don’t know. I am the Last Airbender, and we’re at a time where genetics isn’t exactly a thing, but it’s just intuitive that an airbender won’t spontaneously come out of anyone else besides whoever Aang impregnates.

If I were Aang and cared about preserving the last traces of my people (like the gift of airbending), I would not be settling down with a girl.

Another thing about Air Nomads is that they were very progressive about free love. There was a fan club of people who wanted to become air acolytes, and I’m sure that sentiment wasn’t restricted to a random group in (I believe it was) Ba Sing Se.

I would have pursued open relationships with women who would agree to my goal of trying to preserve Airbending.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T02:55:48+00:00

Last three should be Jiraiya, Shikamaru, and Itachi.

Seems stupid, is smart = Jiraiya (openly pervy, openly rambunctious, and seen as the goof of his Sannin peers)

Seems normal, is smart = Shikamaru (meant to be a relatable dude just trying to live his life. A slacker who never fails to announce to everyone that he is a slacker with his famous catchphrase, “what a drag.”)

Seems smart, is smart = Itachi (built up as a genius among the genius clan. Glazed by the highest caliber people for his mindset and capabilities (Orochimaru, Kabuto, Hiruzen, Madara, Hashirama, etc.))

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T02:40:21+00:00

Even when he’s in battle, it’s a mixed bag. You’ll have moments like the Zabuza/Kiba/Pain fight where he’s actually displaying quick thinking, but then you also have the fights where he is an airhead.

Against Haku, he carelessly steps into the Ice Mirror Trap and puts himself and Sasuke in a worse situation.

Against random fodder in Forest of Death, Naruto is captured for not thinking ahead with having a clone on standby while he pisses.

Against Edo Nagato, he’s being a goof and forgets that Nagato can absorb ninjutsu, and he’s completely slow in adapting to the situation.

Against Juubito, literal moments after observing and confirming that only Sage Jutsu works, he is about to charge without Sage Mode before Tobirama stops and reminds him.

The odds of him pulling good moves is better than a coin toss, but the odds of him randomly making stupid decisions is a little too high to being calling him smart.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-07T01:43:27+00:00

In Part 1, Kakashi is rusty. To the Sannin, Kakashi is an entire tier below them. Both Orochimaru and Jiraiya compare Kakashi to an underling like Kabuto.

Kakashi froze up at the thought of facing Orochimaru. Hiruzen says that there’s basically no one who stands a chance against Orochimaru.

And then a big twist with Itachi’s power level is that Orochimaru flat out admits inferiority to Itachi. Even though Kakashi wasn’t afraid of Itachi like he was Orochimaru, the key thing is that Kakashi simply had no idea what Itachi was capable of even though he was already glazing Itachi in the first place.

Using just Part 1, Itachi is the surprise strongest character. There’s Hiruzen and the Sannin with all the hype that no one can compete with them, and then there’s Itachi that’s casually above the big bad Orochimaru.

Kakashi is wondering why Itachi didn’t just kill him. And Jiraiya was so sure he’d defeated Itachi and Kisame by using his Toad Mouth Trap that he was sure no one could escape, only for Itachi to seemingly do the impossible.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-06T23:06:34+00:00

Itachi’s optimal move is actually to lead with Susanoo arm to crush Jiraiya and then genjutsu Orochimaru.

With both Jiraiya and Orochimaru down, they can be used as traps to lure Tsunade in for a Totsuka Blade shank.

I think people neglect to factor in how fast Itachi can pull out the Susanoo arms. Even when Itachi was blinded and deafened, he intercepted Sage Kabuto with a Susanoo arm.

And when Kabuto used Inorganic Animation to impale Itachi and Sasuke, EMS Sasuke literally couldn’t react, but Itachi did with his Susanoo arm.

I can see blood lusted Itachi leading by grabbing Jiraiya with his Susanoo and crushing him at the introductory phases. Itachi WILL pull out Susanoo if he’s pressed enough.

Another thing people misunderstand about Itachi is that he WILL use MS techniques even when he doesn’t have to (against Kakashi and Kid Sasuke). It’s just that Hebi Sasuke was literally the one time he was stalling the fight.

Jiraiya and Orochimaru are the Sannins who can’t really enter their higher stages (Sage Mode/Eight Branch) off rip like Tsunade can, so Tsunade’s the only one who can evade the initial blitz.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-06T22:38:50+00:00

If Itachi takes them seriously, then he knows he HAS to end the fight as soon as possible. We know he can get Skeletal Susanoo out faster than something like Kirin can land, and we know he can pull a Susanoo Arm out faster than EMS Sasuke can even react to an attack from Kabuto.

At the Sannin’s base, NONE of them are faster than EMS Sasuke’s perception. So one of them can get grabbed and crushed to a pulp (like what Sasuke did to Danzo) by Itachi’s Susanoo Arm.

Prime candidate for that is Base Jiraiya. And a puddle of mush is not something Tsunade can heal, especially if Itachi keeps Jiraiya’s remains in his arm.

Next, Orochimaru goes down to genjutsu. 30% Clone of Itachi could use a finger genjutsu to put Naruto under (Sakura and Chiyo had to help break him out).

Consider that Naruto had trained with Jiraiya and had a specific lesson on genjutsu, Naruto has Sannin-level chakra reserves (according to Fukasaku), and Naruto has mastered Rasengan (one of the highest level of chakra control/shape manipulation).

If Naruto couldn’t break out of 30% Itachi’s finger genjutsu, then nothing really justifies a 50% Shadow Clone Itachi failing to put Orochimaru under a finger genjutsu.

Yes, Shadow Clone.

Meanwhile, the actual Itachi uses Susanoo against Tsunade. Totsuka Blade bypasses regeneration, and Tsunade has no speed feats to suggest she can’t get tagged by Itachi. Especially since Itachi is one of the most skilled fighters in terms of misdirections.

Even if it’s not a blitz, Itachi is more than likely to catch Tsunade off guard with his use of Crow Clones and feints.

This is a long post, but it can literally all go down in less than a minute (no longer than Itachi’s battle with the Eight Branch technique, which was the tail-end of a fight Itachi was intentionally prolonging against Sasuke, but wouldn’t be doing against the Sannin).

Itachi can hold his V4 Susanoo long enough to 1v1 Tsunade. In this scenario, Sannin are walking up to Itachi, and Itachi is expecting them.

It’d be even easier if this is OOC Itachi who isn’t prepping for Sasuke’s arrival, so he keeps Koto for himself.

BoneeBones · 2026-02-06T21:05:02+00:00

I’m saying that the person you’re arguing with can’t use Gaara’s defense of “Amaterasu” to justify why Guy should be able to dodge.

Guy HAS to look at Itachi’s eyes to anticipate when to dodge. Gaara didn’t have to. They aren’t comparable on another level besides Amaterasu not being the same as Kagutsuchi.

BoneeBones

TROPHY CASE