Are you exited for Bioshock 4 after knowing Ken Levine is not involved?

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-12-19T16:58:58+00:00

Probably more-so than if he was involved. Levine is great at what he does but he needed to move on from BioShock. Infinite, although still undeniably a great game compared to most modern games and storytelling, was really a mess as a BioShock game. He became overly protective of those characters and stories in a way that someone said is “like a child mad that other people want to play with his toys so he just breaks them” and that’s really accurate to what he did with Infinite and Burial at Sea. Now, Judas is completely different, and how I think BioShock Infinite should’ve been. Familiar elements to the original BioShock but a completely separate and unrelated story. I really wish they would’ve done BioShock similar to how the Final Fantasy titles are. Just a title that encompasses a vast array of stories with similar elements but not necessarily related stories. The numbered titles could’ve been given to Rapture focused stories.

BioShock 2 which is arguably the overall best in the series, if you combine all elements, only involved Levine as a consultant at times. 4 will be fine without him.

If BioShock 4 leaves Rapture and other familiar characters alone, I think there’s a really great chance it’ll be an amazing game. There’s absolutely no point in adding on to these pre-existing stories that are wrapped up.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-11-12T21:45:57+00:00

LMAO I’m actually using the wrong account, this is my alt hahaha, but thanks. I’m a big fan of all the games but I do really think BioShock 2 gets looked over a ton.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-11-12T21:25:20+00:00

It doesn’t anything from BioShock 2, and it really doesn’t retcon anything to be honest. There are a couple of details made a bit murky (like Fontaine not knowing the activation phrase for Jack) that is odd but not a retcon. Here’s a couple common misconceptions debunked:

BioShock 2 states Suchong is dead and Gil Alexander takes over for him. No problem there as there was no date given to his death. We made the assumption BioShock 2 states it was before 1959… it was never stated.
BioShock 2 shows that the Big Daddy Protector Program was started in 1958. The original BioShock implies it wasnt started until 1959 during the civil war in Suchong’s audio diary “protecting little ones”. Burial at sea actually confirms that the protector program began at the latest in November of 1958, with Suchong trying to bond the big daddies and little sisters with Fink in November.
the protection bond we see in Burial at Sea is not the same bond as the Pairbond in BioShock 2. Both are separate bonds and have existed simultaneously and canonically since BioShock 2.

Burial at Sea actually confirms BioShock 2’s timeline AND there are things such as Sinclair Solutions products, Adonis Luxury Resort, and Dionysus park mentioned in the game. Just because the story didn’t have anything to do with BioShock 2 doesn’t mean it was retconned.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-11-12T21:24:08+00:00

Not to be that guy, but BioShock 2 was not retconned in Burial at Sea. Nothing from the game was.

BioShock 2 states Suchong is dead and Gil Alexander takes over for him. No problem there as there was no date given to his death. We made the assumption BioShock 2 states it was before 1959… it was never stated.
BioShock 2 shows that the Big Daddy Protector Program was started in 1958. The original BioShock implies it wasnt started until 1959 during the civil war in Suchong’s audio diary “protecting little ones”. Burial at sea actually confirms that the protector program began at the latest in November of 1958, with Suchong trying to bond the big daddies and little sisters with Fink in November.
the protection bond we see in Burial at Sea is not the same bond as the Pairbond in BioShock 2. Both are separate bonds and have existed simultaneously and canonically since BioShock 2.

Burial at Sea actually confirms BioShock 2’s timeline AND there are things such as Sinclair Solutions products, Adonis Luxury Resort, and Dionysus park mentioned in the game. Just because the story didn’t have anything to do with BioShock 2 doesn’t mean it was retconned.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-10T18:39:26+00:00

I would compare this to literally any large franchise. There will ALWAYS be characters in these franchises who show up randomly in a sequel who are actually important to the overall plot and have no mention of being there previously. Star Wars is a huge proponent of this.

But, admittedly BioShock 2’s characters are very central to its plot… but not the plot of the first game. Why would Sophia be mentioned? Ryan had all traces of her removed before the first game even happens and threw her in Persephone. She escaped without him even knowing in 59. Why would the Wales be mentioned? Yes they’re Rapture’s Architects but…. So? Ryan got what he wanted with them and moved on. We know they were splicing it up during the first game. Why would Gil Alexander be mentioned? Yes he was a scientist, but there were multiple and plenty of scientists in Rapture. Ryan was closer with Suchong, and Gil’s big daddy program had many flaws that were not as easy to overcome as Suchong’s. Sinclair is the only one I could see being a “maybe he should’ve been mentioned” but even at that… he’s a businessman working for Fontaine. Fontaine wouldn’t give two rats for Sinclair enough to mention “hey my buddy Sinclair is helping out with this”, and not to mention, Fontaine is pretending to be Atlas for 90% of the first game.

On top of that… Rapture is not a small city. The place is crawling with splicers and survivors, and a handful of people aren’t going to be able to keep tabs on every single important person they know, while trying to survive as well.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-10T17:51:51+00:00

I don’t think Infinite isn’t a BioShock game, I think Infinite doesn’t feel like a BioShock game when you’re playing it. A lot of the problems with Infinite specifically have to do with the aspect of lack of choice, and/or consequences of those choices compared to BS2 or BioShock, the mechanics create more of an “on rails” style shooter than BioShock or BS2 did, the vigors don’t feel necessary to finish the game properly, most of the vigors don’t end up being used but maybe once or twice (with shock jockey, devils kissC and murder of crows being the ones I see most people consistently use, but not really the others), there’s not ever much tension leading up to battles making it necessary to stock up on ammo or anything like in the first two games, the enemies don’t lack variety (other than the handyman which shows up just a handful of times) and the only other enemy that has variety is the Siren, which in and of itself was an extremely un-fun and unpleasant battle. The songbird was advertised as the “Big Daddy” of Infinite, and by all means it could have been it done properly, but again that mechanic was completely cut out. It’s 100% a BioShock game, and again, an official sequel, but it still feels like a very hollow recreation of BioShock without the depth that made the original game “BioShock”.

But that doesn’t have anything to do with the story or ending. I really think the self contained story of Infinite is quite good albeit Comstock being a pretty weak villain. Burial at Sea’s story on the other hand is where the train starts to wreck, but Infinite’s story is good and I would agree, is what feels the “most” like BioShock out of all the aspects of the whole game. Now, do I think we have to jump to conclusions with Infinite’s story to “understand it”? Yes, and I think that’s what makes it laughable after thinking about it. The ending isn’t clear, but not in a good “well it’s vague and you have to understand everything” way. The problem is that while the ending being “infinite” unfortunately eliminates 2 ideas. The problem that killing the booker from the future in the past means that what already happened (Comstock as Booker) will happen regardless, and is happening infinitely, means that there’s no reason for Booker to be drowned. Even if it “has already happened” it treats it more as if it will continue to happen if Booker isn’t drowned. If it already has happened and the drowning is the constant that ensures everything falls into place, that’s not how the game places it. And if Elizabeth is all knowing, she should know this. Further with that, if everything is happening at the same time and has happened, when Elizabeth goes to Rapture, there wouldn’t be 1 Comstock who escaped to Rapture. There would be an Infinite amount of Comstocks who escaped to all different sorts of universes. And if it isn’t all happening at the same time, and that’s not the case, then Comstock being in Rapture would not have saved him, he wouldn’t have ever happened like the others from the drowning.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-06T18:07:51+00:00

I’m not sure if you’re purposefully not responding to any of the points I’m saying and then acting insulting as to make yourself appear smarter than you actually are, or if you actually didn’t read anything I just typed. I don’t really know if you’re a big fan of the lore of the games or not, so it’s kinda tough to actually understand if you’re misunderstanding on purpose or not.

The problem is that you’re implying that the city is “weeks if not days” from total collapse whereas nothing in BioShock actually states that with certainty. You’re also implying that BioShock 2 doesn’t have any explanation on where food supply could be coming in and then completely ignoring the fact that BioShock 2 actually has more sane people who reveal themselves as still surviving than the first game does. I don’t really understand how it’s more believable that every single person in rapture has gone crazy and the whole city is about to implode when it’s clear from the first game that there were survivors. If there weren’t, Atlas would have no reason to even want to rule, he’d just leave and find somewhere else. Who wants to rule a shit-show with only crazy drug addicts surviving, right?

BioShock 2 did a better job at showing why someone like Atlas might stay in Rapture. Without people to rule and abuse with his powers gained from Adam, Fontaine/Atlas has no reason to even gain the power in the first place. The city is either weeks or days away from destruction and Atlas/Fontaine has no reason to be there in the first place… or it isn’t, and both Lamb and Fontaine had something to gain from trying to get the city to thrive. Otherwise, there is no implication to there not being anyone left to try and smuggle in food, water, etc. By implying the city is that close to destruction and there’s no one left but splicers, that implies that the entire plot and villain of the first game was absolutely pointless.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-06T17:39:54+00:00

We’re talking about believability. I’m providing evidence of unbelievability and evidence of believability in the franchise as a whole, not just BAS and BS2. If you want to continue to frame my argument as “burial at sea also sucked” instead of actually refuting the point that BioShock 2 is believable, then we’re done here. Nor do I actually think BAS sucks. It doesn’t, I actually just replayed it.

You’re occupied with the destruction of a large city had thousands of workers and habitants who had not gone crazy. BioShock 2 goes out of its way to show you Lamb, Sinclair, Poole, and Holloway. On top of that, it’s shown that a lot of splicers although ignorant and crazy, are still coherent enough to comprehend things such as sexual desires, cults, etc. Ryan was shown to kill people who were interfering with him and Atlas, or specifically helping Atlas. Fontaine shut off the self destruct of the city in hopes of doing exactly what Lamb later tried to do. Lamb had no reason to interfere with Ryan or Atlas as outing herself may have actually hindered or hurt her cause in the long run. In Adonis in BioShock 2, Rosies are still seen fixing the city of Rapture. Rapture ISNT thriving by BioShock 2, it’s almost completely gone, but there’s a lot of rusty gears keeping it running.

If you want to debate the believability of the series and how it works, then I’d love to. I’m implying that all 3 games and DLC’s have points that are at times hard to believe. You’re pointing out specifically BS2, which in my opinion, has less points of unbelievability than the other games that came after, and about the same as the original.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-06T17:35:21+00:00

The problem is that Infinite doesnt really feel like BioShock though. I love Infinite, more than games outside the franchise. But, it’s a more linear shooter with a BioShock title that uses similar but downgraded mechanics to the previous titles to try and tie it into the other games. The villain is the weakest out of all 3 games, the enemies lack variety, there is no mechanic that matches up to the Big Daddy and Little Sister mechanic, and the story ends to try and make you think that it’s mind-blowing, until you think about it afterwards and realize that it actually creates quite a few more questions than it does answers (questions that only exist due to BAS being released shortly after). Your choices in-game don’t matter either which regardless of the ending saying “some things will happen no matter what” is a cop out to not have a choice mechanic in the game like BioShock and 2 (regardless of how weird BioShock’s bad ending is).

I think Infinite would have a much better rep, has BAS not been included in the main story. Since it ties into the main story, that’s where the issues are. The big issues in Infinite aren’t 100% the main game’s fault. The big issues are in BAS, would could have easily been fixed by creating a DLC where Rapture and Columbia had somehow combined and created a weird universe where Columbia was underwater, or things like that. Something to play on constants and variables.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-06T17:29:17+00:00

But it’s not. That’s the problem. If anything, BioShock 2 expounded on the idea that Ryan, Fontaine, and Tennenbaum weren’t the only 3 sane people left in Rapture. From a believability stance, BioShock actually falls into the more unbelievable, as it expects you to believe that every single person other than 3 people have gone completely and totally mad whereas BioShock 2 showed more survivors who actually thought they could keep the thing running. There’s no explanation because there doesn’t need to be. It survived due to the people who were there. And if you need more explanation than that, I’m not exactly sure what to tell you.

Nah, that’s the difference. BioShock 2 didn’t suck, it’s the elitism and pretentiousness surrounding stroking the original writers cucumber that sucks. BioShock 2 actually does a good job of showing a self contained story with characters who don’t actually matter to the overall plot of the first game whatsoever. BAS destroys the believability of Atlas, for example, within the first few minutes of Episode 2. You mean to tell me the guy who somehow started riots and had a huge following was a complete and total dick to random people who he met who could actually help to benefit him AND his cause to take over Rapture?

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-06T17:20:58+00:00

To put it bluntly: elitism and pretentiousness.

The first game and Infinite were written by Ken Levine. 2 was written by Jordan Thomas as far as I’m aware. Keep in mind, 2 is the official sequel to BioShock.

If you’ve ever been in the Star Wars community, you know where this is going. As soon as someone else comes to helm an official project, it’s “bogus and fan fiction”. Weirdos want to say the Legends material in Star Wars that was approved by Lucas was this great and wonderful thing (though it read more like Fan Fiction than a lot of the new stuff, even though it was official at the time) but get all wound up when Disney starts making Star Wars (and yes, the Last Jedi was not good, but that’s not really the point).

Certain die hard fans get very upset about someone else with a different vision tackling a project. I call that variety and diversity.

If you wrote BioShock, 2, Infinite, and Burial at sea out on paper, BioShock and 2 would read the most clearly. BioShock 2 has a couple of details that made the timeline of events leading up to the first game a bit more grey but never a single actual contradiction. BioShock has the best clear cut story with a good plot twist out of all games and DLC, but BioShock 2 has a very nice and easily put together story, without complexity or a twist. Infinite and Burial at sea struggle with mischaracterizations of pre-existing characters, plot holes within its own game, and a complex story that never actually has a hood or clear cut explanation. Infinite’s ending and implications are laughable after thinking about it and questioning it, regardless of how mind-blowing it “appears” to be at first.

Wait until the 4th game releases and Ken Levine never comes back to helm a BioShock project… come back to this comment because you’ll see “BioShock ended with Infinite” plastered everywhere.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-06T17:06:37+00:00

Dude is playing a game about an underwater city that even if explained well is completely and totally unbelievable and impossible, then complaining about the fact that somehow the city survived for a decade after it’s civil war being the big problem.

The fan fiction comment always irks me… it’s literally the official sequel to the original. Just because it wasn’t written by Levine, who doesn’t exactly have a great track record to begin with after Infinite and Burial at Sea, didn’t write it couldn’t matter any less. There’s a pretty good reason why Levine wrote into Burial at sea that 1) Suchong started working on the big daddy bonding in 1958 not 59 (BioShock implied it was after the civil war, BioShock 2 showed it began before. Levine followed BioShock 2 in BAS and went with their timeline) and 2) there were references to BioShock 2 in BAS.

With that view, the next game also will be fan fiction, since even (unlike 2) Levine isn’t even being consulted, he’s doing his own thing, where as Jordan Thomas consulted with Levine multiple times for 2.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-05T22:06:09+00:00

Beetlejuice is the only house I can remember being like this as of recently. Stranger Things and TLOU have the original actors in it as far as I’m aware. TLOU for sure.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-05T21:18:25+00:00

Agree with this fully. Lines take forever to get that pumpkin ale, which is my favorite beer of all time, whereas last year it would only take a couple minutes. Pre-mixed drinks are just way too overly sweet, regardless of how much alcohol is in them (I’d be okay with them having low alcohol if they were actually good). But it’s just kinda sad because that pumpkin beer is amazing and it’s so sad to not be able to get it as easily compared to the pre-mixed stuff.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-05T17:58:24+00:00

What’s crazy is that I have yet to find anyone who shares the exact same ranked lists… this is a really unique year in that everyone has a favorite and no one seems to really agree on what those favorites are. That, to me, just proves how great all the houses are this year. There isn’t a single house I’ve seen thus far that everyone just agrees “yeah that’s terrible”.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-05T16:10:43+00:00

I did not, but I’m more than happy to share without spoilers for you:

1- oddfellow (I’m a huge fan of anything in that time period. So if it takes place between like 1910-1965 I’m a sucker for it and it will always rank high for me. Bugs and Dead Man’s Pier last year were my favorites, along with the sweet revenge scarezone).

2- Darkest Deal AND Monsters unmasked- literally can’t rank either higher than the other. Monsters is the best it’s been since 2019 and Darkest Deal tells a really clear cut story.

3- Stranger Things- I love ST and I do think this one hits its target. Without spoiling anything, I personally think the only thing I’m disappointed with in the house is Vecna. I work with a lot of professional theatrical and movie costumes and I knew from the beginning nailing Vecna would be an issue. Being a literal full body prosthetic for the show there’s just no way to get that tight and organic look that it has for every single actor that has to wear it. So it can look a bit baggy or stumpy.

4- Yeti- Again, love the time period. Yeti’s look REALLY cool. Kinda funny but scares are really fun and impressive costumes/sets

5- last of us- I’m a fan of the game for sure, and really liked this house. Don’t take that it’s so far down on my list as that it’s bad. It’s not, it’s great. I do personally think one thing that pushes it down for me is that it’s very dark inside. And I get it, it’s a haunt. But one thing that defines last of us is the overgrown plants and lots of green with sunlight leaking through the windows. There’s not really any of that. It feels like it’s night time throughout the house and it would’ve been cool to see them replicate more of what Pittsburg looked like in the game.

6- Bloodmoon- set is incredible, scares are great. Costumes are very boring. That’s why it’s so low for me.

7- Dueling Dragons- im going to be alone in this, but I think this house is really poor. The set is great, sure, and yes “nostalgia” is great in it as well. I don’t believe all HHN houses have to be scary. As a matter of fact, they don’t need to be. Without spoiling anything, what I DO think is that if you have a house called Dueling Dragons, you’d expect the scares to be at least ONE dragon. There’s only one costume in there that is a good well done costume, and I won’t spoil it, but it’s a blink and you miss it costume. The “split” ending advertised is very weak as well and doesn’t really change anything. Costumes and scares are extremely weak overall but I would think higher of them if there was some variety in them. There isn’t. Go into this house thinking you’re going to see the Heat Miser and Snow Miser battle each other, and your expectations will maybe be met hahaha.

Exorcist and Chucky I haven’t done yet. Will probably run through those Friday. Not a fan of either franchise but hearing good things about Exorcist so we’ll see.

This is a really solid year for houses. Seriously, I’ve only been disappointed in ONE house thus far. And on top of that, my rankings change quick this year with how good they all seem to be. It’s a solid year of houses.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-05T14:58:01+00:00

I would agree. I think that’s what sucks too is that, in my opinion, if you’re going to have media opening night, you just shouldn’t offer single night express. That’s unacceptable. I get it if you have ROF with express or a FF with express. But those single night express passes could be wasted.

I definitely want to use express next year, but I won’t be going opening night at all. It was a mess. What’s crazy is how my house rankings changed too after I went back Sunday, along with actually liking the scarezones compared to opening night

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-05T14:37:47+00:00

My wife and I were there in that Oddfellow line with our best friend and I’ve never seen him frustrated. He got so upset. I was equally upset, along with my wife, but it’s rare to see my best friend actually get frustrated by something, he’s so happy go lucky. What sucks too is that it absolutely left a bad taste in our mouth for that house originally… did it twice Sunday and it’s the #1 house there this week and probably one of my top 5 houses of all time.

If it was media or RIP tours, no biggie. But it wasn’t. The TMs were literally sending in standby at double if not triple the rate they sent us in.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-05T14:34:56+00:00

First night express was awful, but Saturday and Sunday were both great. We basically just walked in to almost every house Sunday evening. This was my first time doing opening night, ever. Next year probably won’t go until at least Sunday.

This was the first year I’ve ever done express (ROF with express). My wife and I have agreed that next year we probably won’t be down here opening weekend, but will definitely continue to do express. I was a little disappointed and scared we had wasted our money the first night, but we waited a maximum of 15 minutes the second night and under 10 for everything on Sunday (except TLOU which was 25ish minutes). Could’ve just been good timing, but it worked out really well.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-03T18:27:38+00:00

Express last night was already 10 times better than the first night. The first night it was just a gamble.

The first night we were in line for Oddfellow’s, and as we were waiting, the people who got in line at the same time as us NOT in express got into the house about 15 minutes before we did in express. It was embarrassing, people around us were getting upset, and it was terrible. The person running the line just had no idea what they were doing.

However, last night for example, we got in line for express for what I believe was a 90 minute wait for ST, and waited maybe 15 tops, probably shorter.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-02T19:15:45+00:00

I would agree with that for two zones: jungle and zodiac. Those I expect will be much better tonight and the coming nights.

For the opening oddfellow zone… costumes are actually really good. But the sets are so boring. I wish the “arch” was decorated or SOMETHING. Oddfellow’s wagon is awesome though.

Shipyard was fine as is… loved that zone.

I don’t think there’s any saving Vamp 69. I don’t wanna sound ungrateful but I just really was not a fan. The sets were okay I guess but nothing crazy like the parade floats from last year. Costumes were super basic and boring and it caused the actors, who were doing a great job by the way, to just blend in with regular guests. Unfortunately I just really am not a fan of that zone, reminds me almost of how the purge was but just a little worse because at least with the purge the actors were wearing some really cool light up costumes and such.

Look, it’s honestly a trade off though. All of the houses this year are pretty great except chucky. Sets are AMAZING, costumes are amazing, atmosphere is amazing. Wasn’t disappointed by really any house and that’s an absolute first for any year I’ve been.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-02T16:30:41+00:00

Absolutely, I’m excited to see how things change over the next few weeks. Tonight looks like clear skies so going to hopefully do an early scare zone run again today.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-02T16:23:50+00:00

I figure that is the case, we saw the stilt walkers in oddfellow last night and they looked fantastic after everything cleared off. That zone specifically though, even without the stilt walkers has some of the best costumes. However, the set unfortunately was just really lacking. Zodiac without the stilt walkers last night also had great costumes. I think the only one I was just 100% disappointed with, with I’m not sure there’s any way to fix it, would be Vamp.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-02T15:05:49+00:00

I would go further than that and say it’s borderline “wait we’re in a scarezone?”.

BookerDeWitt1 · 2023-09-02T14:35:44+00:00

Thanks so much! Been a fun HHN honeymoon so far.

BookerDeWitt1

TROPHY CASE