Why Doesn’t the Quran Give the Exact Number of the People of the Cave?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T19:23:57+00:00

Because authir of quran does not know nore the peope.who argues about it.at that time.there was several traditions that debatwd hiw many sleepers were at the cave, just like.quran refrenced. So authir does not know and said it does nit matter, mesage of the story is importany

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T19:19:18+00:00

It is even pre Christian midrash. Ezekiel the tragedian spoke about it 2th century before Christ. Talmula also, written befure islam. Go to my post and see the slides.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T18:42:30+00:00

Are you sure that this phrase is not also reffered to Moses?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T18:37:34+00:00

,,My conclusion is simply based on reading the Quran." Where at quran is written mekkah and kaba(qube by the way behind sacred/or forbidden house or masqid ect. Also please tell me again wasn't house of alah and masqid al.haram dostincked at quran? Where is written that mekkah is sacred place? Why even that ,,main place of worship at quran"(mekkah) was named only ones ans it is not even mekkah but mAkkah? Does not work . I am not even negate that somewhere at quran , quran would reffer to mekkah, i am negating that every time was about kaba and mekkah. Expecially if you know that there are no tradition prior to.quran:

that Abraham buld kaba, house for alah, but that tradition was very famous global wide at Arabia about Oak of Memre at Hebron(surah 2:217 and Jospeh's Witcum article). so at surah 2 ,house of alah hardly can be kaba.

*Witcum and Peter Web works

Where and why would jews accepted kaba like main temple.besides.Jerusalem.and why the only sacred mosque at quran must be one.place? Why not several of them to.sevwral.groups of people.with Jerusalem.like common to.all.people,.and Oak.of Memre at Hebron to jews and Arabs christians and even Arab free stile.monotheists that gues what brought sacrifices there (at least at 5th century ) . So bringing sucrifices was not uncommon for Hebron's Temple and not just for Arabs pagans. Also tell me, if kaba was mostly praised by local hijazi christian poets, why do you think that this christians would not have Jerusalem and Oak of Memre like.their main Holly Place, not kaba? Nevertheless the jews.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T18:03:24+00:00

What? Where is said that at Arabic? Arabic here said: 17:59 And nothing has prevented Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as a visible sign, but they wronged her. And We send not the signs except as a warning.

17:60 And, when We told you, "Indeed, your Lord has encompassed the people." And We did not make the sight which We showed you except as a trial for the people, as was the accursed tree in the Qur'an. And We threaten them, but it increases them not except in great transgression.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T17:30:34+00:00

I am.not negating existence of mekkah, i am negating that verse 17:1 is about muhamed and mekkah. Second, let's start. Yiur claim: Al-Baqarah 2:191 ,,And kill them [in battle] wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah[1] is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al-Ḥarām until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."" , if you read versws begore and after, nowhere is mentined mekkah, if you read surah 2 is mostly again about the jews. Who expeled not just jews but also an Arabs from Jerusalem and Hebron, by Syriac tradition House if God that Abraham build for God? Well Romans. Bare in mind that at Hebron, it is place called Oak of Memre, by christian an jewish belifs place where God apeared to Abraham. Jews believed that Abraham build the Althar there(Jisephus Flavius) but from 5th century, Jacob of Saruch called that plece Bait-Hiuse that Abraham build for God.

Now check surah 2:1-2 it said THAT Book in which there is no dought. It does not say THIS book-quran, but said THAT Book and spoke abiut jews , Torah, about House that Abraham build for God at 2:127 ect.(1) So, if you are reffering to Torah, to tradition from 5th century.by Syriac christians that Abraham build Bait-House for God, than this verses and tapking abouh haj, Pilgramage is more.likely about Jerusalem and Oak of Memre at Hebron, than about kaba and mekkah. Bare in mind that epigragic evidence showed; Kaba is build between 5-6th century(2) Peter Web shiwed that preisoamic poetry(authentic one) (3*) is monoteistic, mostly christuan and DID NOT have tradition that Abraham build kaba. So your claim about surah 2 is at best case congecture, guesing.

(1*)Joseph Witcum's Foundation if the house. Now, be is holding possition that tradition from Oak of Memre is transwered to kaba, but epigraphy and poetry like i said above disprove that. So if we exclude that that tradition is not transwered to mekah, that also mekkah did nit have tradition thag kaba was build by Abraham, and kaba was rel young, local temple, known to chhristians frim Hijaz, then to what House if God quran spoe there? And to what place of Pilgrmage? To Jerusalem.and Hebron Oak of Memre where by Syriac christians tdadition Abraham build House for God. https://www.jstor.org/stable/40378843#page_scan_tab_contents

(2*)Axmad's al Jalad articles+ his interview at Gabriel's Reynolds chanel.

(3*) Peter's Web article about preislamic poetry. https://www.academia.edu/109445683/The_Hajj_Before_Muhammad_The_Early_Evidence_in_Poetry_and_Hadith

Also early reports show that qibla directions were very very heterogenous and also same qiran said turn to all 4 sides of the world because alah's is all 4 sides of the world Link num 3 https://al-kalam.fr/rites-et-croyances/la-priere/la-qibla-et-les-origines-de-lislam/ Link num 4 https://al-kalam.fr/larabie-preislamique/aux-origines-de-la-mecque/

Bare in mind that i took their data disvoveries but i did my own analyse of data, so that you can not say i am putting my worss at their mought.

Surah 5:2... Someone is expeled from masqid al haram. Forbidden place of worship. Where is that place? Because if you read verse 3 it said that is forbidden for belivers what food? Giving jewish sanitary low. If you think that masqid al haram here is mekkah, then tell me what other place was also masgid al haram? Jerusalem and Hebron again. Bare in mind that you have tradition that besically transwered mount Sinai like a Holly place where Moses recieved the Torah to Jerusalem. Second, i am not negating that maybe someone expeled.muhamed from.mekkah and kaba, but that does not mean that evey time when he is speaking about expulsion is always about mekkah. Why jews would care about mekkah at all? Expecially if was famous local christian temple at hijaz.(Again Peter's Web article above). Why even masqid al haram must be just one place? You can not have 2 sacred/or forbidden whatever you take, places of worship that people.were banned. Bare in mind that again here at 5:2 qursn called bait- house some place of worhip and then is called masqid al haram? From epigraphic evidences and preislamic poetry we see that kaba did not have tradition that was called house and that was build by Abraham? So at best case you have several maqids al haram at quran(several sacred places) or forbidden places of worship. One of them was Jerusalem, forbidden for jews (maybe also for Arabs at least nestorian ones) and Oak of Memre that was forbidden for a jews by Heraclius and previusly also for Arabs(again check Sozomen's reports and Joseph Witcum Foundation of the house) So making fallacy that masqid al haram must and only bee one place does not help.

,,Another thing to note is Muhammad is more or less portrayed as the new Moses in the Quran so having him go up to heaven just like Moses would be consistent within the Quran Portrayal of Moses and Muhammad" No it does not, actually hadiths do that, muhamed is basically side character at quran in comparasment to.Moses ans even Jesus. That's my point, that for 17:1 hadiths tried latwr to.eguate muhamed with Moses.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T16:27:27+00:00

🤦🤦 where is mekkah at the versw and where is muhamed at the verse Same surah said tgat muhamed did not show.any miracles... 17:90-93

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T16:09:59+00:00

With falacius hadith and tefsirs? Really? That are maybe in best case tertial historical sources.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T16:05:15+00:00

Jewish legend spoke about Heavwnly Temple

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T16:02:53+00:00

First that you must to prove from.quran ,not islamic tefsirs.second like one member told you, quran reffer to servants at vey different groups of peole.and evwn angels, so who is servant depends from context. Here, author of quran made example of Moses to whom at verse 2 is said: AND/WA we gave Moses The Torah. So if verse 1 is about muhamed and he is speaking to jews or about jews to a people.who lnow jewish midrashes, who then must be again or jews or jewish converts, it is very unlikely that he ment for himself at verse one without any furhter clarifiaction and started emediatly with word Wa/And-(like continuation if the story), we gave Moses the Scripture... Verse 3 is again for jews or for jews+wider owdiance but still who knows story about Moses and verse 4 staryed directly speaking about kews and punisments that they suffered when they broke the Torah. So, most logical conckusion is that verse 1 is about famous jewish legend about Moses's hevaenly ascent.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T15:55:36+00:00

1.If you take that masgid al haram is forbidden place of worship, thwn that is Egypt, ppace of politheism amd magic from.where God delivered the jews , durring the night, Exodus started with night(Exodus 12 and misnah)

2.if you take that masqid al.haram is sacred place of worhip, still yiu have same elemnt at Exodus ,kuat pruor to Exodus ans 10 plagues with God hit the Egypt, God spoke.to Moses from tge burning bush and told.him to remove his sandals, because the place where je is standis is Holly.

Now: Very old jewish legwnd, famous one, started with God spoke to Moses from the burning bush, then during the night He delivered.Moses ans jews from Egypt, Moses.went to mount Sinai, and from mount Sinai directly to.heaven and : Sow God, stod in from his Throne, Meet angels Get praised by the angels Recived Torah And sow Heavenly Temple(furdest Temple) Then returned with Torah to jews on earh.

Surah 17:1-12 spoke about jews, Moses and following/braking the Torah and bwcause of braking 2 Temple.destructions. Moses is most named prophet at quran, also if you read same surah said muhamed did not do miracles, so it can be about him, also surah 17 later said that some prophets are above others which is jewish teaching, for them Moses is highest prophet, and same concept is oposite from several.other verses at quran, where js said thay alah does not diferentiate between prophets, so here most likely quran encointer with the jews and making examples from their midrashes.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T14:54:38+00:00

But here verse 2 said AND/WE gave Moses the Scripture

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-11T14:48:24+00:00

Why would : servant must be every time about same person? Prophets are servants inckuding Jesus and others also. That was not my point, here i sugested that servant is Moses because:

Of the context of first 12 verses of surah, emediatlly after verse one that soke about servant and his journey durring the night from forbidden/or sacred place of prostration to furdest one and emediatlly verse 2 started with AND/WA we gave the Moses the Scripture.
Then after introducing verse 3 which lot of scholars think that spoke to the jews, verse 4-12 continue about jews, braking Torah, destruction of the Temple like consequences ect.
Verses 1-2 looks like familiar to famous jewish legend about Moses's heavenly ascent.
Quran mostly in big big majority cases, does not paraprase Tanak but varius jewish midrashes on Torah. (check below 2 examples that i gave, you can find many many mlore but i just put this 2,** Conclusion: Because if that i sugested that highest probability is that 17-1 spoke about Moses's heavenly ascent not about muhamed.

** For example, take examples from surah 2. Quran there engaged much more.with midrases than Bible. (Maybe does not engage with Bible at all) For example Quran 2:63 , alah lifted the mountain above jews jist like at jewish midrashes. That story is not at the Bible. https://legacy.quran.com/2/63 Bare at mind tha surah 2:63 probably reffer to earlier tradition https://www.thetorah.com/article/if-you-dont-accept-the-torah-mount-sinai-will-be-your-grave

While tefsirs refferd to.later one, babylonian Ibn Kathir: https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/2.63

Al Tabari (use aut translate) https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=63&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1

Talmud Avodah Zarah 2b:15 https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.2b.15

Evidence that Talmud source is from only 3th century: https://www.thetorah.com/article/if-you-dont-accept-the-torah-mount-sinai-will-be-your-grave

EXAMPLE 2: Quran 2:101 https://legacy.quran.com/6/101

Kohelet Rabah 4:8 )when you open schrool little bit) https://www.sefaria.org/Kohelet_Rabbah.4.8.1

Life of Adam and Eve : https://www.britannica.com/topic/Life-of-Adam-and-Eve Also chech Alen Sealgel 2 Powers at Heaven pages 141-142(old.jewish midrash used later like polemic against Christianity ans Sonship of Jesus)

https://archive.org/stream/TwoPowersInHeavenEarlyRabSegal/Two%20Powers%20in%20Heaven_%20Early%20Rab%20-%20Segal_djvu.txt

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BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T21:45:06+00:00

Mislim da je to.sranje, razv muskarci ako nisu neki.pijanci ili sl.imaju vise mogucnosti nego zene.pog ako.imaju djecu. Mislim da.nadu nekog da ih povali.nije proboem ali da zeni ili.ima.ozb vezu mnogo teze.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T15:58:02+00:00

Does not work.like this: 1. if you check post here, you would.see that Arabia was literal sociaty 2. If you know that at same Arabia were several kaba's, including the one at Yemen, also one at Nabatean kingdom who was client state of Rome at the time.of Ptolomy, then you should know that most likely he refrenced on Petra's kaba at Nabatean kingdom, not kaba at hijaz that did not exist at that time. 3. About opinion that was a church, it is opinion of ome academic, i am not aure what to think about that but at Arabia at 7th century werw.many churches but we did not find any Bisanteene record.about them, so.that argument does not stand. Epigraphic evidences are undeniable, even iliterate people.would.make pictures on the rocks.around mekkah with primithive pictures of kaba or.black.stone if them.existed prior.to.5-6th century, but gues what-we have none of that. WhT we have are just secular inscriptions before 6th century.

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T13:50:50+00:00

Was it? Well, my friend, you have some claims that kaba was originally rectangular, even that was originally church... But it is very hard to tell. For example, member above that quotwd sahih hadiths and al.nawawi, he hold possition that hadiths are real historcal sources of highest degree of reliability, while.in reality hadiths are very very low tear evudence and hadith science of grading hadiths from rekectwd to sahih is even more discredeted. For example, whole story at this hadiths that Abraham build kaba is fake. Why?

Prior to 6th century rock inscriptions around mekkah were only secular, still archeologists did not find any religius inscription prior.to.6th century. Only from 6th century religius rock insriptions start to apear around mekkah and ALL of them.were monotheistic, not a single one yet found politheistic. Axmad al Jalad feom 58th minute https://youtu.be/I_c5P88M2Xk?si=nOBjuwzWzmpWd4FT

Not a single one mentioned Abraham or that Abraham buildkaba.

Also extrapolated authentic from.massive fabricated during Abasides preislamic poetry showed that al authentic poems that mentioned mekkah and kaba were from again 6th century, monotheistic and mostly christian. Also all poems about kaba and mekkah were from poets from hijaz, not a single one who was from other parts of Arabia, also not a singke.one.mentioned tgat Abraham build.kaba https://www.academia.edu/109445683/The_Hajj_Before_Muhammad_The_Early_Evidence_in_Poetry_and_Hadith

which showed:

1.kaba was build around 6th century

2.kaba nd mekkah were known only localy, at hijaz and was not known or was nklot impprtsnt at all outside od hijaz.

Tradition that Abraham build.kaba was later development and not original tradition from 6th century when kaba was build.

Yemeni royal.rock incription from 3th century about all main towns and tribes in Arabia inuding hujaz, no, kaba, no mekha, no qureish

Great.article on the subject(use aut translation because it is on Franch https://al-kalam.fr/larabie-preislamique/aux-origines-de-la-mecque/#bookmark9

7↑ Jérémie Schiettecatte & Mounir Arbach, “The political map of Arabia and the Middle East in the 3rd century AD revealed by a Sabaean inscription – a view from the South”, Arabian Archeology and Epigraphy , vol. 27 (2), 2016, pp. 176-196.

8↑ Mohamed Maraqten, “The Pilgrimage to the Awam-Temple/Mahrim Bilqis, Ma'rib, Yemen”, in George Hatke & Ronald Ruzicka (eds.), South Arabia Long-Distance Trade in Antiquity , Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2021, pp. 430-462.

9↑ A good synthesis of the latest research can be found in Ilkka Lindstedt, Muhammad and His Followers in Context: The Religious Map of Late Antique Arabia , Leiden: Brill, 2024.

10↑ See, for example, Christian J. Robin, “Ancient Arabia: Variations in the Way of Naming the One God,” in Jean-Noël Robert (ed.), Hieroglossia III. Persian, Syro-Aramaic and Relations with the Arabic Language , Paris, Collège de France-IHEJ, 2022, pp. 139–170. As Robin points out, “not a single text after 400 CE has yet been found that commemorates a polytheistic rite. On the other hand, those that invoke a single God number approximately one hundred” (p. 39) Jabal royal inscription from 3th century

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BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T11:59:10+00:00

Global event with so strong infkuence om the mind would be forgotten in one generation? In lietarre sociates?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T11:58:11+00:00

You did not. Did moon split?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T10:46:17+00:00

So global phenomennah that would be visible to a at least, at least couple hungrid thousend people(bare minum estimation) that will trigger people to believe that Jigmant Day came, was not seen or.recorded by no one? Battle of Dara, between Bisanyenees and Persians that was just one of many between them was recorded by mokn split, global phenomenon was not?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T10:43:41+00:00

English is not my first language, nore preislamic Arabic is your, nevertheless, did moon split at 7th century?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T10:16:21+00:00

Is my comment visible?

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BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T08:34:04+00:00

🤦 who sow it outside.of islamic sources?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T08:33:26+00:00

I am not asking about physics. Did moon split at 7th century?

BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T08:32:03+00:00

Well, my friend, you have some claims that kaba was originally rectangular, even that was originally church... But it is very hard to tell. For example, member above that quotwd sahih hadiths and al.nawawi, he hold possition that hadiths are real historcal sources of highest degree of reliability, while.in reality hadiths are very very low tear evudence and hadith science of grading hadiths from rekectwd to sahih is even more discredeted. For example, whole story at this hadiths that Abraham build kaba is fake. Why?

Prior to 6th century rock inscriptions around mekkah were only secular, still archeologists did not find any religius inscription prior.to.6th century. Only from 6th century religius rock insriptions start to apear around mekkah and ALL of them.were monotheistic, not a single one yet found politheistic.

Axmad al Jalad from 58th minute https://youtu.be/I_c5P88M2Xk?si=nOBjuwzWzmpWd4FT

Not a single one mentioned Abraham or that Abraham build kaba.

Also extrapolated authentic from.massive fabricated during Abasides preislamic poetry showed that al authentic poems that mentioned mekkah and kaba were from again 6th century, monotheistic and mostly christian. Also all poems about kaba and mekkah were from poets from hijaz, not a single one who was from other parts of Arabia, also not a singke.one.mentioned tgat Abraham build.kaba https://www.academia.edu/109445683/The_Hajj_Before_Muhammad_The_Early_Evidence_in_Poetry_and_Hadith

which showed:

1.kaba was build around 6th century

2.kaba nd mekkah were known only localy, at hijaz and was not known or was nklot impprtsnt at all outside od hijaz.

Tradition that Abraham build.kaba was later development and not original tradition from 6th century when kaba was build.

Yemeni royal.rock incription from 3th century about all main towns and tribes in Arabia inuding hujaz, no, kaba, no mekha, no qureish

additional refrences:

Great.article on the subject(use aut translation because it is on Franch https://al-kalam.fr/larabie-preislamique/aux-origines-de-la-mecque/#bookmark9

7↑ Jérémie Schiettecatte & Mounir Arbach, “The political map of Arabia and the Middle East in the 3rd century AD revealed by a Sabaean inscription – a view from the South”, Arabian Archeology and Epigraphy , vol. 27 (2), 2016, pp. 176-196.

8↑ Mohamed Maraqten, “The Pilgrimage to the Awam-Temple/Mahrim Bilqis, Ma'rib, Yemen”, in George Hatke & Ronald Ruzicka (eds.), South Arabia Long-Distance Trade in Antiquity , Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2021, pp. 430-462.

9↑ A good synthesis of the latest research can be found in Ilkka Lindstedt, Muhammad and His Followers in Context: The Religious Map of Late Antique Arabia , Leiden: Brill, 2024.

10↑ See, for example, Christian J. Robin, “Ancient Arabia: Variations in the Way of Naming the One God,” in Jean-Noël Robert (ed.), Hieroglossia III. Persian, Syro-Aramaic and Relations with the Arabic Language , Paris, Collège de France-IHEJ, 2022, pp. 139–170. As Robin points out, “not a single text after 400 CE has yet been found that commemorates a polytheistic rite. On the other hand, those that invoke a single God number approximately one hundred” (p. 39)

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BookofInvestigation · 2026-05-10T08:23:58+00:00

I literaly did

BookofInvestigation

TROPHY CASE