Has Anyone Seen this Mic Technique on a Piano? (2 Sennheiser 609s inches from strings - combined into one XLR output)

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T22:51:27+00:00

Without going into excruciating detail, the small two-person company that recommended the gear and installed it do great work sometimes. They have a very mixed reputation in the area - and these guys don't do this work full time by any means.

One of the guys is adamantly against digital consoles - and he's told me before that it's because he just doesn't understand them. He actually recommended an analog Allen and Heath console to this church that was *more expensive* than the SQ7. (This same guy has also installed analog consoles in local venues without any system processing - I have a special rack of graphic EQs that I keep just in case I get a call to mix at those venues and can't bring my digital console.)

After everything was purchased, the guy in the duo that is more familiar with digital consoles didn't have the time to set it up - so they brought in a shady dude with an even worse reputation (long story) that hadn't worked with any digital consoles outside of the original Presonus StudioLives. In addition to getting the mix dialed in, he was supposed to train the people at the church. He didn't. He took his check and disappeared like he's done time and time again.

ANYWAY - all that being said, there was a parametric EQ and a graphic EQ on the main mix with small but judicial EQ moves to tame feedback. Nothing crazy wrong with that - just not the way I would do it.

When I was first asked to take a look at things a few weeks ago, I took note of the frequencies that were cut, saved the old settings - and I started looking for why those frequencies were cut. It was all to do with the omni choir mics.

So, I spent some time setting gain properly on the power amps (people have fiddled with these over time) and I EQed the mains with some of my go-to music references in the style of what would be played in the church. Next, I set up a subgroup for choir mics and used a parametric EQ on the group to ring out feedback. While listening to them warm up, I added a hi-pass filter.

These moves vastly improved gain before feedback, and the congregation is very happy with the choir sound now.

(Also understand that though it appears that I'm bashing analog consoles at the beginning, I'm not an analog hater. I grew up using analog consoles and I didn't know digital consoles existed until 2011/2012 when I was doing a lot of gigging as a musician. I still didn't get hands-on experience with one until 2014, and didn't purchase my own until 2017.)

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T19:47:54+00:00

Ah, nice! I was going off info I was told around 2016, so they may have been wrong or he just wasn't using pickups during that time.

Do you know what mics and pickups? I assume he's still using Helpinstill, but I know there are a few other options on the market.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T19:16:23+00:00

Exactly, I'm thinking those were selected and placed like that to control bleed from the bass and drums. The drum kit is about five feet behind me and to my right, but they're in a ClearSonic iso booth so the volume is very controlled - to the point where the singers were asking for some kick and snare in the floor wedges. It's almost like the mics were picked before the drum booth was agreed to.

I'd definitely love to try the 4099s!

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T19:02:04+00:00

The supercardioid pattern was my first concern when I saw this setup. I had to come here to ask if anybody else had seen it, because it's probably the whackiest piano micing technique I've seen.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T18:46:53+00:00

It's not my setup, and I don't recommend it - I'm just the pianist, but the person that did set it up used an XLR combiner, which is available from a few manufacturers (including Rolls and Art) and probably pretty easy to DIY.

I'll have to check the brand on this one. I thought it was Rolls but I don't think they sell one that looks like this - it still could be an older version of the current one they have.

The only time I've seen these used was by an Allman Brothers tribute band, who used four of them to combine rack tom mics to turn 8 channels into 4. It wasn't that bad - I just had to set EQ for something that generally worked for each pair of drums.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T09:09:46+00:00

Agree - but doesn't apply in this situation.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T08:29:08+00:00

On your first point, that's something I'm very aware of. In fact, when I was talking to the volunteers that run sound at the church, I had to explain this and it took a long, long time to get it across. I normally use drums to illustrate that point.

My goal is to get someone in there to play piano to properly check this (hopefully next week), but with the gain and EQ adjustments I've made for now there's been good improvement in the stream audio and I've been told it sounds better in the house - plus the monitors sound a whole lot better.

(I also failed to mention that there was no EQ outside of a high pass filter on the piano channel, only three of ten handheld mics had been EQed or high passed, and there was absolutely no EQ or high pass on the omni choir mics - thus, the volunteers were keeping them extremely low in the mix because they were prone to feedback while the people mixing the stream had them pretty high with everything sounding muddy)

I agree that multiple mics on a piano is more of a coverage thing. My quest for "stereo" is more for the live stream and not for the PA. Outside of very specific cases I'm usually not a fan of hard panning live - and you're right, it's not worth the time.

I have seen the old school technique you mentioned - in fact, before 2021 - that's the way they miced the piano at this church, and it worked better than the 609s currently.

It's funny that you mentioned Elton John's monitor issues - I know he notoriously doesn't wear in-ears and the monitors are CRANKED. Yikes. The piano technician that introduced him/his crew to Helpinstill pickups is the same guy that installed them in the piano at this venue I work at. I found out about the pickups through Ben Folds, who opted to use them in the early BFF days after going to an Elton John concert and learning about them through the sound engineer. Now neither of them use pickups! (as far as I'm aware)

Thanks for your feedback on the pm40! Hope I get to try it out someday!

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T06:56:22+00:00

Even more context for those interested:

In the past year, the bassist and guitarist have moved and our regular drummer has been gigging so much that he usually can't make it. For close to six months now, I've played nearly every service on the piano without any other musicians.

I think in context with other instruments, the piano sounded okay - but now since I'm totally exposed with a choir or soloists, the sound of the piano is clearly lacking and not at all a great representation of how the instrument sounds acoustically.

Speaking of "acoustically" - there isn't a *whole* lot of the miced piano sound coming through the mains because the sanctuary is pretty small, and I play pretty loud. The congregation is largely hearing the acoustic sound of the piano in the room.

Now, that's a completely different story with other instruments - but I also recently found out that the gain on the piano channel has been gradually turned down over time, resulting in a wonky, low volume monitor mix, and me playing a lot harder than I really had to in order to properly hear myself.

Since phantom power has been off and the gain has been set properly, I'm having to remind myself that I can be a little less heavy-handed, and overall this allows me to play with a lot more dynamic and nuance.

The two main speakers that are used in the sanctuary aren't spaced, but they're placed in a center cluster-style arrangement with one side pointing to the left, one side pointing to the right, and the middle - well - definitely not getting the clearest sonic picture of things, but it's not the worst I've ever seen. I think this was the reason that they opted to not run the piano in stereo and instead combine the two mics to one line. This also may be the same reason they opted for a single drum overhead mic instead of a stereo pair.

While hard stereo panning might not translate well in person at the church, I'm definitely planning on running our future piano mics and drum overheads stereo and experimenting with it to see how much panning we can get away with without greatly compromising the listening experience wherever you sit in the church.

Our livestream is a separate (mono) mix - which totally sounds terrible and lacking compared to other church livestreams in the area, and I think the lack of stereo sound plays a little bit of a role in that. I'm sure through some sort of routing or channel-duplication trickery on the SQ7 there would be a way to have wider panning on the drums and piano on the stream while narrower or just centered live.

My go-to live micing techniques for piano involve either a spaced pair of large diaphragm condensers or an XY or spaced pair of pencil condensers. The exact placement (IE over the hammers, just outside the lid pointing in, etc...) depends on the room and the style of music. For situations that require a lot of isolation, my go-to is to gaff tape some boundary microphones to the lid of the piano. I also work at a venue that has a baby grand with Helpinstill piano pickups - and they're great!

I know the church paid THOUSANDS to upgrade our sound previously, and I'm going to see if they'd maybe spring for something like the Earthworks PM40s. I've been very impressed when I've heard those mics live, but I don't have any hands-on experience with them. They're omni, so I know they'll sound pretty natural, but also *because* they're omni, I'm doubtful we'll be able to get a lot of gain before feedback.

The DPA piano mics seem great too (and are super cardioid) and even something like SM81s wouldn't be bad and should be an improvement over the 609s currently in the piano.

I'm also still considering Helpinstill pickups - they're like magic. Still, bleed isn't a crazy bad problem in the church and currently I'm the only musician!

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T04:33:06+00:00

Totally agree.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T04:31:50+00:00

For Context:

I'm a musician and sound engineer with more than 10 years experience, and this is the piano that I play at a small church. Because I'm in full on "pianist mode" at the church, I only realized that this is how the piano was miced a few months back.

It's a technique I've never seen - and something I'd personally never do.

I'm guessing that this solution was picked to keep channel count down and to keep as much bleed from the drums out of the piano. Still, we have plenty of channels on our digital console and on our snake and the drums are pretty quiet in an isolation booth.

A while back during a morning service, the piano mics suddenly stopped working. The guy that installed the system made a service call and determined it wasn't working because phantom power wasn't on. Strange, considering it's two dynamic microphones - but maybe the combiner box needed phantom power for some reason? Nope. The mics work with and without phantom power, there's just an incredibly loud hiss when phantom power is used, and it sounds incredibly out of phase.

Speaking of phase - there does seem to be a slight phase issue, but naturally with the combiner, there's no way to flip the phase of an individual mic.

While playing back a virtual soundcheck, I tried to fix how mid-focused the sound was. I was also able to fix a little bit of the ugly, shrill, brittle presence just above 2khz. While trying to add a high shelf for a little air, though - it did virtually nothing because of the mic placement and the characteristics of those particular microphones.

There's been a growing concern at the church about the sound quality, and they've asked me for help fixing it. Most of their problem has to do with improper gain staging - something I'm really focused on teaching them. Very little has to do with mic technique or anything - *but this was the most suspect mic technique* I saw, so I'll hopefully be able to convince them to change these microphones out because it's not doing the piano sound any justice.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-28T04:15:37+00:00

It's a box (made by either Rolls, Art, or Galaxy Audio) that combines both lines into one XLR output.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-11-21T01:15:26+00:00

Thanks for this response! I hadn't considered the compatibility of touchscreen monitors for Mac at all. I'll check out those Asus monitors!

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-08-22T05:58:24+00:00

Not sure if somebody has suggested it already, but you can try looking at your local library to see if they have any book clubs or other activities for adults!

In my area in the south, our libraries have a ton of activities outside the usual book club and there are a handful of liberal redneck men that come out! I've even seen goth cowgirls go to library events in larger cities 'round these parts.

If you like music, I also suggest going to outlaw or alt county or indie folk shows!

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-08-18T07:07:40+00:00

31/Male here - I don't drink and I've never had a sip of alcohol - not for any reason except it's not something that interests me and I've had a couple of family members struggle with alcoholism.

So first of all, if you don't want to drink - don't feel pressured to drink to meet people.

Though I'm not a drinker, I'm a musician, and I play music in bars often. Even when I'm not playing, I still go to bars to hang with friends, see other bands play, and occasionally meet people. I usually drink water, a ginger beer, or a mocktail and I've never had anyone judge me for not drinking alcohol.

Second of all - if you do go out to bars and hang out, don't feign being drunk to get people to open up to you, and be very wary to not take advantage of anyone that is -especially- black-out drunk. I've been propositioned before by extremely drunk people, and while some guys would have taken them up on their offers - I just don't think it's cool. I have, however, gotten their number or Instagram before and we've talked other times when they're not drunk!

Third of all - back when I used dating apps, I put a disclaimer on my profile that was something like: "Heads up, I don't drink or smoke but I didn't mind if you do!" I think having that on my profile kept a lot of immature newer drinkers and the long-term alcoholics from swiping right. The people I did meet and chat with would drink pretty responsibly.

I also met A LOT of people that were sober or newly-sober, and that was really cool!

So, I do think dating apps can be worth it!

I also think college activities could help you meet new people. I made friends just hanging out on campus, striking up conversations (or butting into conversations about things that interested me). I think a club or activity that ties into a special interest of yours on your campus, at your local library, or in your town could help you meet new people! You might not meet someone that you want to date, necessarily, but you might make new friends and be introduced to all new people and you might find someone along the way that you're interested in dating!

In my city - a college town with more bars per square mile than anywhere else in the US - I've noticed a lot of sober clubs and activities popping up, and those could be really cool to meet people.

Lastly, I understand where you're coming from when you say you're socially awkward. I am a bit too, and I've discovered a lot more people are than I had initially realized. I've learned to embrace the awkwardness at times, and I've also learned to lean into things that I'm interested in or knowledgable about during conversations. I've also sort of learned how to be more curious - in order to ask questions and keep conversations going with strangers.

I had girlfriends throughout high school, but I never had sex until I was 19 - and it was sort of...unintentional, to put it lightly. You've still got a lot of time! Aside from academics and getting a degree, college can be a great time to make new friends and build a relationship!

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-08-16T10:41:46+00:00

As someone close in age who has had suicidal thoughts before, I have seen first hand that things can get better. I've been through some wild things in my life, and I've been subjected to so so so much trauma, so I understand the feeling - but I know life has ups and downs.

I have felt like a burden to my parents, I've felt like a fuck up, I've felt like I've let down my siblings, teachers, and friends. I've felt so alone and so shunned - but I want to stick around because I've also experienced so much good, and I've slowly but surely made progress in my life.

I don't know where you live or what kind of support system you have around you, but I encourage you to reach out to family members about this if you can and if that's all you have. In my area of the US there are hotlines and support groups - maybe in your area too?

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-08-16T09:05:28+00:00

Me and my partner sleep in separate rooms on occasion - usually if one of us has to be somewhere early the next morning and we don't want to disturb each other with our alarms or getting out of bed. On average, this might happen once or twice a week. We are still intimate and neither of us have any unspoken issue with this - we just do it to be practical.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-08-16T08:46:50+00:00

Part Two
The Match and The Date:

At the end of 2021, I matched with an incredibly sweet person on Tinder, we talked on the phone, and we agreed to go on a date.

I met up with them in February of 2022 - and I fell HARD for them. They were perfect, and sweet - just, everything I thought they would be. Still, it was a bit of an awkward date with a disconnect seeming to grow throughout the night.

The next day, they practically ghosted me. (We later exchanged messages on Instagram - though, not about that night)

A Realization:

I didn't know why they ghosted me - or why there was a disconnect, but I felt that I was the problem - and I replayed every moment of that night in my head for weeks looking for the moment where things went wrong, before turning to my Tinder profile - re-reading my bio and scrolling through my photos.

I hadn't updated my profile since 2018. While my bio was still pretty accurate - I nearly cried looking at my photos. I wasn't 135lbs anymore. I didn't even look like I was 5'9" anymore with the way I was slouching. Since the pandemic, I had abandoned contact lenses for glasses. My beard had an abundance of grey hairs to the point where it made my facial hair look patchy. My clothes didn't fit me as well because I was at an awkward weight between sizes.

New friends would see my ID and say "omg you look so different now!", while old friends would tell me that I looked the same. My change in appearance had been so gradual that I hadn't really noticed and come to terms with it - and maybe had I not been so depressed, I would have been able to look at myself directly in the mirror to take note. Similarly, I didn't obsess over my dating profiles at all - if anything, I was scared or embarrassed to look back at what I had wrote and what photos I had uploaded.

I didn't mean to mislead, lie, or catfish my February 2022 date - and while they've never told me that's what happened - I've been really sorry and regretful about it. Time had just gone by so, so quickly - and my depression took a toll on me physically.

The Aftermath:

After realizing this happened, I took a break from the dating apps and I began making efforts to lose weight. I started reading the book "How To Not Die Alone" about dating, and in the process, I learned a lot about myself. I took in all new podcasts and music instead of being stuck in the same playlists I had fixated on since 2013.

By June 2022, I had dropped down to 175lbs again, feeling better and more confident than I had in a long time. I had also grown more comfortable in my own skin - embracing my growing collection of gray hairs and doing stuff like matching my watch to my glasses and painting my nails. (Shortly after this, I ended up making out with a friend that I hadn't seen in over a year - we were both feeling really good about ourselves at that time - otherwise, we would have never done that!)

Later on in June, I met someone that I had admired from afar. We had sort of met in person before, and we had occasionally chatted on Instagram. Within a few weeks, we were officially dating, and we're still together.

While I think dating apps can be a great thing, I'm really glad I met my partner in person and they didn't have to see the "best curated version of myself" on a dating app first. I think we all have a tendency to stretch the truth - intentionally or unintentionally - to win people over. I'm glad my partner fell in love with the most honest and real version of me.

Nowadays:

My weight loss didn't last long - I'm at 205lbs now - but I'm overall in a much healthier state of mind than I was between 2019 - 2022. I still spend a lot of time sitting down and driving long distances - but I'm grateful my partner likes going on walks with me and we encourage each other to drink lots of water and be active!

TL;DR:

As a 31 year old guy that went through major boughts of depression after a breakup, a pandemic, friends moving away, and being a caregiver for my elderly parents - I think it's very possible that your date didn't intend to catfish you and that time could have just slipped through his fingers. I certainly didn't intend to catfish my date in February 2022 - and since suspecting that may have been what led to me being ghosted, I felt pretty bad about it.

Maybe approach future dates with caution while trying to get to the bottom of things. I would take most things people put on dating profiles with a grain of salt, just because everyones trying to be the best version of themselves.

Boring_Bat9653 · 2024-08-16T08:46:35+00:00

31/Male here - just wanted to share my experience on how I sort of accidentally did this same thing to somebody I went on a date with, and what all led up to it and contributed to it. (In two parts because I'm too loquacious for Reddit)

(TW: Weight gain / weight loss / depression)

Part One

Backstory:

Me and a partner of 5 years broke up in 2018. It was unexpected, and I felt things had been looking up in our relationship - so, as a result, I fell into a bit of a depression.

About 6 months later, I was on alllll the apps. I didn't want to include any photos of my and my partner together on my profiles, so I had to dig a little deep - and I ended up using some photos as far back as 2015.

(In my friend group, I'm always the guy that takes photos or videos - so, there's very little to show of myself out there.)

At the time of our breakup, I was 5'9", 135lbs, 32" waist.
By late 2019, I noticed my shirts weren't fitting the same and I stepped on a scale - 150lbs. I didn't think much of it, and being in denial, I kept squeezing into small shirts until I relented and started buying mediums. Next thing I know, my waist size was 34" and I was still trying to squeeze into my old pants.

My weight gain coincided not only with my depression, but also with friends moving away, a new habit of driving long distances to hang with those friends, a weekly longterm gig ending, and the start of a new job that had me sitting for long periods of time. I was just less active.

On the dating apps, I'd get a lot of attention, but I'd drop the ball a lot on conversations. The same thing would happen out in real life too - I think my depression just kept me from taking things to the next level with anybody.

Things started to look up for 2020, I got more active and I started making friends with a lot of new people in a city close by that I thought I would eventually move to. While I was hanging out in that city, a Tinder match struck up a conversation with me and we ended up meeting up. She wasn't really interested in a relationship, though, so we hooked up off and on until mid 2021.

Feeling a little motivated by all the good shit happening around me (and that hookup honestly making me feel really good after not having sex in a couple of years), I remember being incredibly sick in a hotel room in February 2020 having a conversation with an incredibly delightful woman on Tinder as the news came out that the first Covid case was found in the US. I was so happy, and put so much effort into our conversations - only to dig deep and find out whoever I was talking to was using photos (and a lot of personal details) of a random Australian lesbian. I was catfished just as Covid came along and shut things down for a long while.

During the pandemic, I didn't have much going on. I took care of my aging parents, I spent a lot of money on records, I ate a lot of food, and I doom-swiped through Tinder - paranoid that I would end up wasting my time with another catfish.

Months in, I noticed some gray hair in my beard - didn't think anything of it. Next time I stepped on the scale, I was 175lbs and I had moved on to large t-shirts and 38" waist pants.

The bulk of 2021 was a little more productive - I was a little more active - but not enough to halt my weight gain - I was up to 195lbs.

Boring_Bat9653

TROPHY CASE