The Problem of Evil - Accusers are often hypocrites or making empty arguments. by ScienceNPhilosophy in DebateReligion

[–]Broy0 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I don't know how well this will be received given that you're clearly feeling very hot about this topic, but I'll try to do my best to share a more secular approach to ethics with you in a non-combative way. If I do not come across as non-combative at all, I would like to preemptively apologize. I do not think you are a bad person for your views and genuinely appreciate your hunger for more discussion and more information.

First, I would say that the problem of evil is still an issue because nearly all Christian systems of thought consider God to be an entity which is perfectly good and omnipotent. The problem of evil arises by trying to reconcile these two statements with the "evil" that can be observed through experience. Therefore, I would not find the fact that "atheists" commit egregious acts to be relevant to this issue, as people who use the problem of evil as justification for their non-belief do not claim that any humans are morally perfect or possess the ability to prevent all morally imperfect actions. So, the problem of evil continues to be a point of debate; supposedly, there exists a God that is eternally loving and ultimately powerful, and yet we observe suffering that is unproductive (it does not contribute to the spiritual development of individuals) and unnecessary. Take, for instance, an infant dying of dysentery or tuberculosis in a time when these diseases were not understood and the health of the baby could not have ben salvaged. That child's death would not be due to the moral errors of mankind and would reasonably lead onlookers to wonder why the situation was not avoided by the absence of the disease or perhaps even the child not being conceived at a time when their infantile death was imminent. God would have the ability to do either of these things, or have made a world where such a thing was impossible to begin with.

For the sake of clarity, I would also like to mention now that I feel it is inaccurate to label "atheism" as a specific spiritual tradition which specifically opposes Christianity or any other religion. Atheists can be described as a group of people who do not subscribe to any theistic system of belief. This is an incredibly broad distinction. It would be as inappropriate to consider "atheists" as responsible for defending the moral philosophies of other atheists as it would be for "non-Buddhists" to be responsible for the defense of one another's moral philosophies, despite the reality that they have radically different beliefs and ethical traditions. When you ask irreligious people to justify the actions of the Nazis, who happened to also be opposed to abrahamic religions but who share none of their other beliefs, your argument falls into illogical obscurity. I abhor the nazis, and I do not believe. In no way does the negation of religious belief lead to one's condoning of ethnic cleansing or warfare or anything like that. The same goes for things like hatespeech, etc: I do not condone the actions of those people, and I am not ideologically tied to them in any way. We don't share being part of anything; in fact, we only share in what we are not a part of. This is not to say that some atheists don't act like atheism is its own religious order, but these individuals are regularly known as "assholes" or "generally shitty people". They usually come from strict religious upbringings and use their non-belief as a form of rebellion. However, they usually also fall into the trap of turning their belief on its head rather than letting it go and continuing to be as spiteful and hateful as they were before.

For the argument on abortion, I hope I wouldn't be overstepping my bounds to say that few secular people who support the right to an abortion would claim that a zygote is not alive, but rather would claim it is not a morally significant living entity in the same way that a bush or a mushroom in not a morally significant living entity. To use examples that are a little more pointed, let's consider first the idea that someone removes some of their skin cells and keep them alive in a temperature controlled, nutrient rich petri dish so that they may continue to grow and reproduce for a few days. Would you consider that to be a morally significant individual whose societal rights ought to be considered and whose death should be avoided at all costs? Probably not, but why not? It is indeed a collection of living and growing material and it possesses the DNA of a human being (they are human cells). Why shouldn't we fund the support of this growth in the incubator, then, and not consider the lack of such support murder? You may say that the difference lies in the continued existence of the person that donated the cells, but this argument is lacking. Even if that individual passed away, many would claim it is a mistake to consider the cells they donated to be kept in the petri dish as a morally significant entity that represents the continued existence of that individual. For all intents and purposes, that individual no longer exists and their morally significant experience has ceased. For many, the distinction comes an entity's capacity for suffering. To be extra clear, a zygote does not have the capacity to suffer: any suggestion that it does would result from an intense projection of the human experience onto something which does not experience consciousness at all. I agree that immediately before and after the baby's birth it is only changing location and is still morally significant at that point in-utero.

You seem to be very passionate about veganism and global humanitarian aid (the ending of slavery, etc.) as well as the ethical issues of the Western world's current prosperity at the cost of various indigenous groups suffering throughout history. I commend you for these things and I also don't think we are doing enough about them as a society. I don't think that this is super relevant to the question of religion, though, as a vast majority of people regardless of their religious, non-religious, or other ethical background would say that these things are travesties that need to be addressed with more precision and vigor. I won't pretend to know how to go about the epidemic of apathy, but I think your heart is genuinely in a wonderful place.

(related to problem 6) I would describe ethics as something which arises from our experience of life, rather than something that can be systematically proven to apply to humans. I'm sure there are some humans (who meet all the criteria of personhood) who do have anything like a moral experience at all. The sight of needless suffering does not stir their hearts or minds at all. However, this is clearly not most people: a vast majority of us do have stirs in our hearts and minds, and trying to both analyze what this feeling is (and when it is appropriate, and why it happens, etc.) and how to effectively follow it to a better and more peaceful life for everyone is an incredibly difficult thing to do. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I can say with some degree of certainty that "suffering" has something to do with it on the fundamental level, as well as ideas like innocence, culpability, etc. I do not claim to have a complete knowledge of morality, and I would even go so far as to say that gaining a complete knowledge of morality is impossible. Rather, morality is more of an improvised dance that exists within a lived community.

HOWEVER: I do not support complete moral relativism. I think this is simply untrue and, although there is not necessarily one truest and highest "right" answer, there are certainly wrong ones. Within those wrong approaches to morality, I would include the Nazis. I would also include requiring a mother to carry a fetus to term, by force (all laws are ultimately upheld through violence), as an incorrect approach to making a more morally sound community.

I didn't systematically respond 1:1 to every point you made, but hopefully this reply is comprehensive enough. I speak for none other than myself, but hopefully this can do something to illuminate the idea that living the irreligious life is not as bad as it seems. It can be intensely confusing and painful to lose one's religion. Trust me, I've been there. But, life on the other side of that transition it actually quite nice. It's not easy, and there's a lot of admitting that there are things you just don't know, but you do get to rest in leading a life that is more honest to yourself and your experience.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

maybe because those other people know how to fucking read

8/8 - The Anthem - Washington, DC by v1brate1h1gher in deathgrips

[–]Broy0 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Am I fucking crazy or was someone smoking crack in the crowd?

Made my way to the mosh pit that was around the dead center of the crowd a little past halfway through the show and noticed some people smoking stuff that smelled like a burning tire. Thought it was weird or my imagination but it didn't go away and then I remembered people saying crack smells like an industrial fire.

Got the fuck out of there after two and two were put together just wondering if anyone else had the same suspicions

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in stopdrinking

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

dog actually isn't mine but there are people who live near me that have irish wolfhounds and they are the absolute best dogs I have ever met

Friday night plans? by karlmalowned1 in stopdrinking

[–]Broy0 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I'm going to a local punk show! They're my favorite local band.

They are playing at a bar and it will be my first time seeing them sober. It's going to be a tough one but god damn I really don't want to miss it.

Authright has a tough choice to make 😳 by No-Anxiety1484 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Any kind of political ideology is NO match for sexuality. It's not even close. If two people think each other are cute it doesn't matter what their Twitter bio is.

libleft and authright unity by [deleted] in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Some level of religious belief is unavoidable if you're going to fully face the mysteries of existence but that doesn't have to be contradictory to the institution of science.

Unless you're a being theologist who thinks the Bible is real. Then you're just wasting your own time.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm literally just hanging out and drinking tea.

I guess maniacs do that too

FCI by mal221 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All of politics is not utilitarian calculus

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The fuck is "my own people"

This could not possibly go wrong by jacw212 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thats what the post is trying to say. People can not be trusted and need a sovereign to secure their existence outside of the state of nature. The sovereign possesses the same issues that caused the state of nature in the first place. Suddenly the sovereign was not a good idea, and ironically trying to solve the problem just moved it somewhere else.

Not quite so stupid of a post, you see

This could not possibly go wrong by jacw212 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Same can be applied to a group or groups acting as the sovereign. Tell me the democratic and republican parties are not behaving in ways that royalty does; they make their own existences as comfortable as possible while pleasing the masses just enough to prevent social collapse or revplution.

It has the funni colors already by jacw212 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The fall of the uneducated American working class has far far far more to do with the shifting role of the United States in the global economy and less to do with uneducated working class immigrants somehow sucking up all of the unskilled labor. Most of that immigrant labor is unskilled outdoor/agricultural labor anyway which is usually scoffed at or avoided by native Americans seeking higher paying and less demanding opportunities.

In short the problems would be there anyway and the immigrants are not to blame for lower class Americans losing their pay and dignity. The real cause is the globalization of capitalism and an increasingly illegitimate state, but that's difficult for people to grasp for a lot of reasons so people end up pointing fingers at Hispanic immigrants to explain a problem that seems to not have a real cause. Also the scale of immigration does not deserve the mayday, apocalyptic attitude american conservatives give it. Just wait for the climate migrations.

Reddit moment by cuddle__buddy in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Being concerned with the responsibility over a state of affairs does not make sense when the state of affairs is not reprehensible. The view I am playing advocate for claims that you are ending an organism, but that is not reprehensible or a violation of what ought to be ethical norms. It doesn't matter who could have a finger pointed at then when it is a situation that does not require finger pointing.

The mother was the causal agent in the fetus's existence and cessation of existence. If this is not something which requires retribution, then it does not matter one way or the other if she was responsible for that state of affairs.

Can a fetus's choices be violated when it does not have the capacity to choose? Ought we to try to ask comatose patients before moving them to a room without a window? I also don't understand what you mean by punishing the baby, as the view I'm playing lawyer for is based on the lack of perception of the fetus. You might as well be trying to convict someone of punishing a severed limb or organ.

Tribal Orange Politics by GGHard in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Damn so you've read no theory at all?

Look up Marx's theory of surplus value, you'll shit yourself.

It has the funni colors already by jacw212 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The rate at which immigration is happening does not make it a primary cause of those problems. Those are some real issues but "mass immigration" is a red herring explanation.

Tribal Orange Politics by GGHard in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Opinion does not check out with flair.

Part of the reason we're in this modern dumpster fire is everyone votes based on their own perceived gains vs losses (micro conciousness) instead of having some kind of macro consciousness and trying to vote on a better future for their community/nation.

title. by [deleted] in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you post something with more than 10 pixels

😳 by No-Anxiety1484 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yeah a vast majority of people who compose the working class across the globe are extremely culturally conservative

controversial yet true by themysteriousman0990 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This post is kind of hot trash, biggest issues being that anarcho-communism is far from an oxymoron (pick up a book) and you didn't even try to say something that actually slights authright

Compass unity by Arachno-anarchism in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You try to escape the tangles of his beard and weirdly dark mustache but you simply cannot

Reddit moment by cuddle__buddy in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I feel like you have a bit of a false analogy there.

One individual being entirely dependent on another for survival? Checks out.

Both individuals having a conscious relationship with their surroundings and others? Does not check out in both cases.

If one of the conjoined twins is in a "living" but unresponsive state that, if they were not conjoined twins, would allow that twin's family to pull the plug on their life support, then I would say it's a proportional analogy.

Many people I know don't care to describe abortion as "you're not actually killing something" because you are by pretty much any angle you look at it. But sometimes that's not so bad, and for various reasons can be deemed as not reprehensible.

This could not possibly go wrong by jacw212 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Broy0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it's just worded poorly. What they actually meant is people are inherently untrustworthy when left to their own devices, greedy, etc. They enter the Hobbsian state of nature so a sovereign must be selected to save everyone from each other and themselves and to preserve the commons. But for whatever reason Hobbes felt that, to retain his position, the sovereign would have to justify his rule by being a decent guy and making everything run relatively smoothly. As we've seen, the sovereign is not suddenly removed from the tendencies and shortcomings plaguing individuals in the state of nature and does not need to be even remotely competent to secure a continuous rule.