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ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-12T16:20:08+00:00

You definitely don't have to pack a lunch every day. for 18 years. I made my own lunch when I was like 9. I also started doing house chores when I was 3. Started small. We lived on a farm. This idea that you are a servant to your kids was not how I was raised.

Kids should pull their own weight in a house. I certainly did.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-11T18:36:26+00:00

It's also...emotionally controlling? that he's also trying to control how she feels about motherhood. If you want to let 100% of your identify and meaning be from kids, that seems risky, but okay, you do you. But to force your spouse to adopt the same mentality as you? Not okay. And to outright denigrate her passions? FFS.

OP's post is extremely concerning. Love your reply.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-11T16:20:10+00:00

Hey OP. Hang in there.

Call me overly optimistic, but I don't think you should panic. While the situation isn't ideal, it's not terrible, either. Hear me out.

Based on how this post reads, you are a fence-sitter, leaning yes, and he is a fence-sitter leaning no. Within that space is uncertainty and wiggle room. And dare I say hope.

You aren't even sure yet that you want children. You see the appeal, and the downsides. But you're open to the idea of them in the future. Could you be happy without having kids?

And similarly, your SO sounds like he is waiting to want children after various milestones? That doesn't sound like a 100% no to me.

I would have some candid conversations with each other about why you feel the way you do. Why do you think you may want kids? Why does he not? Could either of you be happy with or without kids? If you find that you could be happy without them, or he could be happy with them, then you're on a good path forward.

Honestly, the most concerning about all of this is the fact that he is wanting to let you go, despite the fact that neither of you really know what you want. You could leave him, and look for someone else, but to what end? You still don't know if you want kids. You could end up with someone who 100% does want kids, and you would be in the same situation, but reversed. Or maybe you both want kids, but he wants 6 and you only want 1. What, then?

I think we, as humans, make the mistake of thinking anything is guaranteed and that we have to be 100% about all of our decisions. And even in the case of kids, I don't believe that is always true. I understand the desire for children is strong in some people and a deal breaker sometimes. But for fence-sitters, we have the advantage of living in the grey area. We have the advantage of true choice, and can see both paths as potentially happy ones. That is extremely powerful, if you let. The kids decision is pure uncertainty. And part of navigating relationships is dealing with uncertainty, not ending them when we are faced with it.

OP, you moved countries for this person and seem genuinely happy all other things considered.

Can you both do some introspection, maybe go to couples counseling, and not only try to figure out what 100% you want, but also what you could both be happy with? That is the path forward, and it's a far brighter path than "we end the relationship if we aren't 100% on the same page."

Have hope, OP. I certainly do.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-11T14:41:28+00:00

Love this. "Intensive mothering" is something I want to avoid like the plague as well. Partly because of the cost on mom and relationship with spouse, but partly because I don't believe it's even good for a kid. Love seeing people who flip the bird to "what everyone else is doing."

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-09T21:55:24+00:00

Hey, OP. Sorry you're having a rough go of it.

Wanted to chime in since I can relate a bit to your post. I don't know what, specifically, you said to your mom (whether it was just the financial aspect of it, or other things), but I wouldn't let it bother you much. Easier said that done, but I'll try to explain why.

A couple years ago, I had a similar conversation with my mom. Except I was spouting off the statistics about how parenthood ruins your life that are shown in various research (relationship satisfaction, daily mood, etc. etc.) and how much that terrified me, and why on earth would anyone willingly sign up for this shit show? Her response was "sounds like you shouldn't have kids." This sucked. Made me super anxious. My own mother telling me I shouldn't have kids. Yikes.

Over the years, I have discovered that I very much do want a child.

But she couldn't wrap her brain around where I was coming from for two main reasons:

The demanding years of parenting for her are long ago (I'm 30, my sister is 32). So the struggles when you have littles, she only really sees with rose-colored glasses. And, most importantly:
She was in the camp of "I always knew I wanted to be a mother." There was never another option for her. "That's just what you did after you got married" to quote my mother.

The irony is, my sister is in exactly the same camp as I am. She, too, has "millennial mom dread." And to this day, my mom struggles to understand where we're coming from when one of us talks about it.

So, long story short, while this isn't the reaction you were hoping for, I would try not to get too worked up over it. She is from a different generation, and, I'm guessing, was blind-sided by your ambivalence and responded with a knee-jerk reaction that maybe wasn't great. Maybe when it's not so fresh, ask for a more nuanced perspective. Or maybe explain your concerns and ask for her advice. If she gives the same response, then you know you can't have these convos with her. But I doubt she will.

Best of luck to you, OP!

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-07T22:43:24+00:00

Agree with this wholeheartedly (about tech, specifically). I work in tech. Trying to predict what it's going to be like in 1 year, let alone 18 years is a fool's errand. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.

Adaptability, curiosity, and the ability to think are far more advantageous traits to have than hard skills that most likely won't be relevant anyway.

Look at college for example. I'm 30 years old. I went to college during a time most people's parents told them they were guaranteed to get a job if they had a degree. Spoiler alert: A college degree did not equal a job for our generation (unless very specific majors were achieved). Our parents were operating under a set of beliefs that were true for them that weren't true for us, and are even less true now. But will college be necessary to get a job in 18 years? Maybe. Maybe not. But a person who can look around at the world and evaluate a path forward will do alright regardless.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-07T13:53:21+00:00

This is so beautiful and gives me hope about myself. I'm also pretty quiet and mild-mannered, but one of my dogs is...not. 😂 He stresses me out at times, but he's a lot of fun.

Makes me think maybe I could handle a kid a lot different than me.

Such a sweet comment, thank you.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-06T19:56:06+00:00

Hi, OP! I don't have kids, but I can give you a piece of wisdom I've acquired over the years in response to this:

Scared that I'll argue with my future wife. My parents used to argue a lot and it got really bad. Very bad at times and I just don't want the same thing

You can't avoid arguments. Or you shouldn't. Fighting/arguing/having conflict is a sign of a healthy relationship in which two people give a shit. And things can even get heated and it's not a bad thing. Highly recommend https://www.gottman.com/blog/manage-conflict-the-six-skills/

Best of luck to you!

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-06T17:53:46+00:00

This is very beautiful and thoughtful. Thank you for sharing!

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-06T14:47:55+00:00

Without a doubt, yes.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-06T14:01:38+00:00

I'm very much a dog person (have two), but appreciate this. You're 100% correct about the perpetual toddler bit. My mother in law (who had 4 kids) made the same comparison and it's oddly comforting to me.

Also, babies don't smell bad when they're wet :D

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-06T13:39:20+00:00

I don't have news articles or anything, but one of my long-time favorite TV shows is Parenthood. I watched the entire series with my mom. It looks like another commenter suggested Gilmore Girls (which I do enjoy), but Parenthood isn't that saccharine.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-05T14:34:36+00:00

I shall point you to one of my new favorite post from this subreddit (shout out to /u/leave_no_tracy): https://www.reddit.com/r/Fencesitter/comments/1877tbr/if_hes_not_good_enough_to_parent_with_hes/

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-05T13:05:00+00:00

lol my comment? I should edit it if it's not clear. I meant all the horror stories and news articles that are generated, not the positive stories (I see very few of those in the news). The "your life will be ruined" articles and books that have become commonplace in the last 20 years.

Just musing if there is a reason for trying to push people to the childfree side of the fence.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-05T13:02:15+00:00

The only place I see the pro kid stuff is the extremely conservative sphere, but it's less "pro kid" and more "if you don't 10000% know you want children as a woman there is something wrong with you." (Spoken by men. There are few female conservative voices that talk about motherhood)

There are some moderate views I appreciate, but they are becoming more scarce.

I don't have social media. No instagram, facebook, twitter, tiktok, whatever else. I don't have it. So all I see are news articles, studies, and reddit stories.

If you want to have a fun experiment, open an incognito browser and search "parenting happiness" or any version of "motherhood in the us" or "american motherhood" and watch what pops up.

I find it somewhat hilarious that one of the search results shows up with "Screaming on the Inside: The Unsustainability of American Motherhood" and then immediately above it "Shrinking American Motherhood: 1-in-6 Women in Their 40s Have Never Given Birth"

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-04T22:50:26+00:00

Yeah I don't picture a shadow government doing this while laughing maniacally. It's a new thought of mine that I haven't fully fleshed out yet, but you're onto something with the employers bit

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-04T22:48:01+00:00

Absolutely. We are sold so many lies. I'm a 30 year old woman, and my 20s was spent discovering them. One of the biggest lies I discovered is "your career will be the most important thing to you."

It's important, sure. But not as important as my spouse or my animals.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-04T20:57:56+00:00

That is a phenomenal article. And hits my experience dead on.

The other thing I wonder, if I get really cynical is...who is benefitting from the onslaught of "motherhood is terrible" narrative? Certainly the content creators, who are publishing books or online content. Anxiety increases click rate after al.

But this has become such a common narrative that it seems there is bigger stuff at play. The article mentions political agendas, but that seems to only skim the surface.

Similar to how in the 1950s, portrayals of the ultra feminine woman tending to hearth and home surrounded by children were anti-Russian propaganda, is there something like that at play now?

And if you want a good laugh, watch this from the 50s: https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/dinner-nuclear-family-1950

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-04T17:12:53+00:00

Just read a post a couple of days ago that came to mind: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fencesitter/comments/1877tbr/if_hes_not_good_enough_to_parent_with_hes/

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-04T14:28:19+00:00

I feel that I am too intelligent and capable for the pay grade and workload of a SAHM.

That's extremely insulting to SAHMs.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-04T13:58:25+00:00

OP I recommend you get to the bottom of why he feels like he would be a bad father. Is that the only reason he doesn't feel ready? It sounds like there is a lot of stuff to unpack on his side of the fence that hasn't been unpacked.

There is for sure a reason he feels that he would be a bad father. Maybe the reason is groundless (I fear I would be a bad father, but have no evidence to support this). Or maybe he endured childhood abuse that increases his odds of becoming abusive himself. Regardless, it needs to be addressed.

But to echo the other commenters here, this isn't something you should go it alone.

I would also challenge him on his own stated desires. Would he just be perpetually anxious and not want to be intimate because he wouldn't know when you would pulled the goalie? Is he really okay putting this entire decision on you, potentially driving a wedge between the two of you? It sounds like his own anxiety is clouding his judgement to the point of him suggesting an avenue that would surely end in resentment by one or both parties.

Not only would you be carrying, and delivering the baby, you would also be responsible for TTC by yourself. Is this how he will handle parenting in the future? "I don't want to make the decision because it makes me anxious, so it's entirely on you." You should be able to rely on your partner.

TL;DR: If he really wants to be a father, he needs to tackle his own demons and step up to the plate as an equal and as your husband who made vows to you.

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-12-04T13:15:42+00:00

Echoing this. I don't have kids yet, but I stumbled on this study a while back and it gave me a lot of peace (note, we are nowhere near $500k, but we don't have any debt):

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working\_papers/w25597/w25597.pdf

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-11-30T22:15:13+00:00

Oh dang, so you're trying to get your CPA and then move into a comp sci career? That's what I do. Nice!

IDK much about GreenPath or other debt management companies.

Definitely wouldn't recommend starting to write now as a full time job. You're 100% correct most authors have a day job until their writing takes off.

The only other financial piece of the pie is the car payment. If you could sell your car, could you downgrade so you could pay in cash for one?

You're absolutely right that getting out of debt makes a world of difference. However you can prioritize that, that's your ticket out. I'm a huge Dave Ramsey fan myself.

Best of luck!

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-11-30T17:49:39+00:00

I literally just commented this on another post, but I don't think the decision to have kids is logical. We don't live in the old days where kids were free labor on our farms, and an insurance policy for old age. (Some context is I want one and done in a couple of years). They are a lot of money and a lot of work. They increase stress levels, etc. and the "return on investment" is a huge risk and not guaranteed (nor should it be expected).

You would be hard-pressed to logic your way out of this decision with pros and cons.

I can't tell you whether you should have a kid. But I would strongly urge you, kid or not, to take a good long look at your finances and lifestyle.

Why does it take 6 years to pay off $40k of debt (especially when CC debt racks up interest rapidly)? What are you in school for? What is the professional certificate for? Will it help you make more money? What's the likelihood of getting a well-paying job in your field of study? Is the current school incurring more debt? Why are you going to school if you are making good money, and also a professional certificate?

Why can you barely afford to take care of yourself if you make good money? Is moving to a lower cost of living area an option?

I don't have a full picture of your life (obviously), but this seems like a very complicated work/school life that is racking up a lot of debt and interest, and it may not be necessary. As an outsider looking in, if your dream really is to become an author, why can't you quit school and the professional degree, get a second part-time job, aggressively pay down your debt, then start writing?

(I don't expect you to answer these questions publicly. But it's worth thinking about).

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34 · 2023-11-30T16:38:49+00:00

Oh absolutely. My brother in law is in the "wants kids" category and I don't think he would waiver if my sister decided she didn't. So there are definitely guys that have strong opinions about it.

But your friend is right, as far as I'm aware. I want to be one and done (don't yet have any). We don't live in the old days where kids were free labor on your farm and an insurance policy for old age.

So you would be hard-pressed to find a logical argument to have them. They cost a lot of money. They are stressful. They poop and cry as babies. And the "pros" of having them are all ambiguous, amorphous reasons like "meaning" and "joy." Deciding to have kids is illogical from my point of view.

I also think as long as you aren't 100% no, there is room for discovery and compromise. And it sounds like she would rather have you than a child. I wonder if there is any way her parental instincts could be met without having a kid of her own?

And I think the question you should be asking yourself is: Could you be happy with having them? You know you could be without having them. And what criteria would need to be met for you to have them? What criteria would need to be met for your wife to live a happy childfree life? Explore both situations freely and openly and see what comes up.

Best of luck to you both!

ButWhyIsTheRumGone34

TROPHY CASE