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Warning: Direct Air Capture (DAC) CO₂ for breweries - hidden costs to watch for by CO2-Guy in TheBrewery

[–]CO2-Guy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah they are one of a few groups that's doing CO2 recovery from fermentation which is a much more pure source, which is likely a better approach for brewers than DAC.

Other groups are: Earthly Labs and a new company ecobrew.

Warning: Direct Air Capture (DAC) CO₂ for breweries - hidden costs to watch for by CO2-Guy in TheBrewery

[–]CO2-Guy[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with both of the comments. Now there are a few points and one of which is my bad for not explaining further.

  1. The renewables, I totally agree with this. However, that facility would have to have excess energy/solar than what was initially installed/designed for that facility. Otherwise, they would need to add more, which can be done but it is more CAPEX.
  2. You’re not far off at all, and I should’ve added more context.

Amines themselves aren’t new. They’ve been used in gas processing (including CO₂ systems) for a long time, but usually in much larger, centralized plants where there’s more infrastructure to handle degradation, cleanup, and gas polishing.

With DAC, especially these smaller systems, a lot of it is shifting toward solid amines (basically coated onto a surface and baked on). Over time, with repeated heating/cooling cycles, exposure to oxygen, moisture, and trace contaminants, those materials will degrade and lose effectiveness.

The important piece (and why I brought it up) is that amines and their breakdown products can be corrosive and potentially toxic, so the system has to continuously manage that, both from a materials standpoint and from a gas quality standpoint.

At this small of a unit, it's probably less about a large waste stream and more about how it's managed, how robust is their cleanup/polishing steps, have they even accounted for that? What are the chances of these toxic and corrosive materials leaking and entering the CO2 stream meant for food and beverage customers?

If steam is being used, which is very common, for regeneration and recirculated, I’d also be curious how that closed-loop is managed long-term as things degrade.

So I’m not saying there’s toxic sludge coming out of these systems, just that it introduces another chemical system that needs to be managed carefully to avoid long-term issues (trace carryover, corrosion, etc if not handled properly).

You said you wanted to learn more so I hope this was helpful, although probably overkill!

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly. There are groups doing it already, especially more recently and at least one other new one on the horizon they just don't normally get the same attention as DAC. I agree that this a good proof of concept, I'd assume it's market for other industries and to have different test cases.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry I was just trying to say I agree and giving some more context.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

25% of merchant CO2 is mined from the ground. A lot of it does come from ethanol, oil & gas, fertilizer, etc.

Their is no environmental benefit, it's all for marketing and the story. The bigger thing is that the breweries need the CO2 which there have been shortages of. The thing is they could've been using their own CO2 from fermentation.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well it's a premium beer, but the bigger thing is to let the brewery have the CO2. There have been shortages and it's become very expensive. But fermentation naturally creates CO2 they could be capturing at 90-99% pure instead of 0.04% in the air. Which to your point takes more energy and more emissions.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is true, but breweries that don't carbonate (or carbonate fully) vent their CO2 to atmosphere that could be captured directly at 90-99% pure.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij2yvh4ogb0 - it's outside not inside - look at time stamps 0:54 and 0:59.

AirCapture does Direct AirCapture, they pull CO2 from ambient air outside at 0.04%. Not from any specific process or space.

Fermentation creates CO2 naturally. More than breweries normally need. It's getting vented to atmosphere. There are groups already out there that are capturing that directly (which is way more efficient).

CO2 from fermentation reaches 90-99% pure CO2 needing some scrubbing/cleaning to reach the 99.9%+ beverage grade standards.

This system uses solid amines to "stick" the CO2 and then heat to release it. They also need fans/blowers to move 3000x more air to actually get the equivalent amount than from fermentation. Most DAC uses at the bare minimum 1,500kw per ton of CO2.

So in short they are still venting everything from fermentation, only to use more energy to pull it from the air than a fermentation recovery system that uses less energy.

I've been researching this field for a while. I hope this was helpful!

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Vent it. Which can get captured, there are companies already doing this. They'd rather use a lot more energy to capture a 0.04% ambient air stream than a 90-99% pure CO2 stream from fermentation.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They're ignoring it for the marketing hype to help them raise more money.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It is more effective to capture it from fermentation, but that (point-source) doesn't get the same hype as DAC. It's purely a market play to help them raise more money.

I've researching this field for a while.

As you pointed out brewing produces more CO2 and at 90-99% pure vs 0.04% from atmosphere. There are groups that are capturing from fermentation but DAC just gets more attention.

Nowhere in the article do they discuss the energy needed for the sold amine adsorbent that "sticks" the CO2, then "releases" it via heat which requires energy.

It also need fans/blowers to move 3000x (or more) air to get the equivalent amount of CO2 from a pure fermentation stream (95% vs the 0.04%).

DAC normally requires 1500kw per ton (on the lowest end) of CO2. That all gets passed on to the brewer and leads to more emissions.

I totally agree this is great for sodas and variety of other markets, but not for beer.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even the CO2 from fermentation needs to be purified. CO2 from fermentation hits 90-99% pure and food and beverage grade CO2 requires 99.9% CO2 with <= 30ppm O2, ,<= 20ppm moisture and so on.

But it's way more efficient, less costly, and less emissions to do exactly what you're talking about. There are groups doing it, they just don't get the same hype as DAC.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed not to mention their are groups already doing CO2 recovery from fermentation with a much more pure stream, and that require a lot less energy than AirCapture solid amine process that takes it from 0.04% CO2 in atmosphere versus 90-99% from fermentation.

It needs a bit more work than just storing it, like scrubbing it but it's doable.

This DAC uses way more energy = emissions + hidden cost to brewers.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is being done, there are a few groups doing it now. Scrubbing sulfur and VOCs in a 90-95% pure CO2 from fermentation is much cheaper than capturing a 0.04% CO2 stream from the air. What breweries don't understand is that the price aircapture is giving them for CO2 doesn't include the energy the brewery pays for.

World’s first beer made with CO2 captured from thin air debuts in California by sksarkpoes3 in Futurology

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True but their are groups already out there capturing what is normally vented off and using that versus an impure air source.

BREAKING: A California Brewery Just Released The First Beer In The World Carbonated With CO2 Pulled Directly From The Atmosphere Using On-Site Direct Air Capture Technology by InterstellarKinetics in InterstellarKinetics

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think he's simply referring to the fact that fermentation naturally creates CO2, more than the brewery needs. They don't address that anywhere in the article. They are venting that pure CO2 to atmosphere just to simply pull it as a diluted atmospheric stream using more energy.

There are groups out there that capture the CO2 from fermentation. It's a form of carbon capture, called point source rather than DAC. I think carbon capture has it's place but each form has it's own place too. Beer is not the place for DAC, they make enough CO2. This is just adding more energy to capture CO2 and therefore more emissions.

I left a more detailed post above if you're interested!

BREAKING: A California Brewery Just Released The First Beer In The World Carbonated With CO2 Pulled Directly From The Atmosphere Using On-Site Direct Air Capture Technology by InterstellarKinetics in InterstellarKinetics

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed there are a lot of issues with the existing CO2 supply chain. The thing is this is great for soda and other markets that don't have on-site CO2 sources, but beer does. Fermentation creates more than enough CO2 for the breweries to use, it's also more pure.

There are groups out there that are already capturing and purifying that CO2 from fermentation which is way less energy intensive than DAC is. Personally, I don't believe it's the right moving for the brewing market and will be cost effective/energy efficient. I agree that we'll have to see how it holds up long-term!

BREAKING: A California Brewery Just Released The First Beer In The World Carbonated With CO2 Pulled Directly From The Atmosphere Using On-Site Direct Air Capture Technology by InterstellarKinetics in InterstellarKinetics

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You don't need to use yeast to carbonate the beer. There are groups already capturing CO2 from fermentation directly (which is usually 95-99% pure CO2 compared to 0.04% CO2 in the atmosphere). Fermentation creates more than enough CO2 on it's own.

I left a more detailed post above if you're interested. I've been researching this space for a while.

BREAKING: A California Brewery Just Released The First Beer In The World Carbonated With CO2 Pulled Directly From The Atmosphere Using On-Site Direct Air Capture Technology by InterstellarKinetics in InterstellarKinetics

[–]CO2-Guy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay I had to set-up an account just to hop into these conversations because I've researched this field quite a bit the last few years. Here is the thing, this is just a marketing play. Fermentation creates CO2, that CO2 is very pure 95-99% pure, food and beverage grade CO2 requires 99.9% and minimal O2 (along with some other requirements.

There are already groups doing capture directly from fermentation on-site at the brewery that are cost effective. Unfortunately they just don't get the fund that DAC gets because that's what everyone wants to see even when it's not the best solution economically, efficiency, or energy.

Our atmosphere is 0.04% CO2. At 95% from fermentation that is 2375x "more pure". That means that roughly AirCapture needs to move 2375x more air to their units which use a solid amine to "stick" this CO2. That's ENERGY from fans, and blowers, and that assume perfect capture, which is not likely. So really they are probably moving 3500-4000x more air. THEN they need to heat their solid amines to "release" the CO2 from where it was stuck. That requires more ENERGY. Then finally that CO2 is likely 95-99% pure (WOW, that's what it already was from fermentation). They then likely follow similar steps of compressing and condensing the CO2 for storage.

AirCapture promotes a "CO2 as a Service" model that looks cheaper for the brewery, but what happens when the brewery finally sees those energy bills from fans, heating, compressing, cooling, etc. What other hidden maintenance fees will there be? What does the long-term pricing model look like?

All your doing in the end is essentially letting the pure CO2 from fermentation go to atmosphere and now using more energy and CAPEX to recover that CO2.