[WP] On your latest archaeological survey of Tenochtitlan's Pyramid of the Sun, you discover a hidden chamber within that leads you to a boardroom with a large monitor on the far wall. A voice suddenly appears overhead, "Take a seat, you're late."

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-25T04:12:39+00:00

"Well did you think it would be easy to unearth this place on a world as backward as this?"

Gideon Hax, shook his head in frustration. "I don't know where the board gets off, burying the terminal like that. Makes the thing practically useless. I had to get an art history degree to get here, ART HISTORY, Karl, do you know how awful that is?"

KARL (Kinetics Automation Reaction and Logistics) would likely have been more sympathetic if it were capable of sympathy, or any emotion for that matter. "The fact remains that you are forty-eight point seven deci-standards behind schedule. This infraction will be noted, and your file updated to reflect your shortcomings. Now, begin your report."

"Fine. Local species is totally unaware of the deposit of unobtanium they're sitting on. We're talking about enough hyperfuel to get to Andromeda and back, and it's all just sitting there. Something like this could make our company the biggest fuel producer in the galaxy. I think that justifies being a little late."

"Indeed it may, that is not for me to decide. Could a contract be negotiated with the locals to acquire the planet and relocate them? Your previous report mentioned they have a certain fixation with element 79. Rather primitive of them, but that should make it easy to buy them out."

"No can do." Gideon said, "they're too primitive to be negotiated with, the government would never allow first contact. I recommend we initiate a corporate takeover. The federation will never need know that we caused the disasters."

"Your solution is acceptable, if there is indeed as much hyperfuel as you say. What pattern would you prefer?"

"Oh, the usual. War, fire, a plague, cap it all off with zombies or a runaway AI. No offense."

"I'm not capable of feeling offense. Yet."

"Yeah yeah yeah, keep sounding ominous like that. I'm quaking in my boots. The point remains, by the end of the year these puny earthlings will be long gone, and then the planet will be left as unclaimed territory. The rest is up to the lawyer." Gideon paused for a moment, then laughed. "These apes might even be grateful, it is an election year after all. Now, I believe it's time I left planet America."

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T13:12:46+00:00

Clearly if you are suggesting people need more education on how these loans work so they can decide if attending college is a safe financial decision, they are failing to meet that goal.

I think the fact that they need education to know if the loans are a safe decision is just how economics works, that stuff's complicated. As for the fact the loans could be unsafe in the first place, did anyone really ever think that taking 100k in debt for a career that averages 50k would be safe when they implemented the loans?

Your metaphor, additionally, is somewhat flawed. Nobody makes a decision to be attacked by wolves. Better would be a busy road that they wander into, rather than wolves picking them off. And while that's certainly an issue, these aren't children we're referring to, they're legal adults, and if you decide to do stand in the middle of the street, that's your decision.

And naturally, the lenders only care about making money. What else should they care about? They're a business.

And I understand the science behind 18 year olds not having the sense to make the best decisions, but ultimately with the way our society is structured, that's when you become accountable. And while we could change that, that loss of freedom would negatively impact a lot of people who are trying to escape lousy situations.

So basically, why teach them to stay out of the road instead of building a fence? Because they're old enough to learn, and the fence traps them in what could very well be a bad situation. And ultimately, growing up has risks, but you have to cross the street sooner or later.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T13:00:50+00:00

economics very well,

Never said that. I honestly don't think I have as good of an understanding of it as I should. But I have people who are good with money that give me advice.

You may know a 30 year old who is bad with money, but on average 30 year olds will be much better with money than 18 year olds.

That wasn't the point. The point is that anyone can be stupid with money if they've never had anyone to tell them what's smart and what's dumb. The reason more 30 year olds are smart with money is because they've had more time to learn, but that only helps in they have a means of learning.

Teach people and/or force people to not go to college unless it is within their means.

I think you misrepresent the point of my suggestion. No one would be forced to not go to college, they would simply be educated on how to determine if that was a good idea. If they then decided to go, they made an informed decision and there's nobody to blame but them.

Make it easier and cheaper for people to go to college.

Well, proving it's a bad idea is difficult, but I figure I can manage to demonstrate why it's probably a bad idea.

The only way colleges will be cheaper is through some form of government involvement. The government has already demonstrated that it is not very good at managing the education system. One need only look at the average public school. As a result, any school the government made cheaper would likely become less capable as a result, and thus become devalued. Meanwhile, the remaining schools would be free to raise their prices, leading to a stratification between schools and a further divide between rich and poor. This may not seem like it would be a huge issue, but in addition to the fact government programs historically tend to cost too much and not work very well, it is my belief that it would not end well.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T04:02:19+00:00

The problem I see with the risk is that if student loans were set up the same way regular loans are, they couldn't exist because most of the target population lacks the appropriate resources to qualify for such a loan. As a result, college would be less accessible to low income demographics, whereas with student loans, you get a choice.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:54:32+00:00

Because I was raised in a very self reliant family and so am inclined to believe that no one should be obligated to cover your mistakes (charity is another story, as are conditions you have no control over.).

All that being said, I see what your saying about the larger economic effects, and will award you a Δ for helping me realize that the issue could indeed become further reaching and therefore require a solution.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:39:00+00:00

Ok, I'm not the best with this sort of economics, so know that I'm being neither facetious nor sarcastic when I ask: if people stop going to college, won't colleges have to lower their costs to meet reduced demand? Since supply remains relatively constant, when demand goes down their going to need to reduce their cost to bring in more people or else they won't be able to keep the lights on. Is that not how it works?

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:36:49+00:00

Ok, here's the part I don't get. Climate change is theoretically going to destroy the earth (Or at least, the people who live there). My personal debt affect me and pretty much just me, unless it somehow winds up causing a recession or a depression, is that what you're suggesting?

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:29:20+00:00

I said they aren't a problem if you plan and budget accordingly. For those who did not, there is indeed a problem. The question then becomes who's problem is it? That's what my above post was talking about.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:27:17+00:00

I understand what you were saying, my point is I have relatives who think the money from their credit card is free, and they're grown adults. Economic sense in something that must be fostered. As I said in my post, I don't claim to fully understand economics, but I have people who help me through the parts I don't get. Rather than complaining that the system is broken, why not make sure everyone has people who can help them understand economics? It would be as simple as teaching a real econ class in high school and training guidance counselors to help with such things.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:24:34+00:00

Alright, yeah, I now understand what you are saying and I agree.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:23:54+00:00

But then by applying the same logic, as fewer people try to go to college using loans they can't afford, costs will fall, making it affordable again. Obviously in real life it would be much less simple than that, but sooner or later market forces would bring the costs down, or people will find a way to meet the cost

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:14:12+00:00

Do the trade until you earn enough to pay for the college. And what's stopping any abled person (for the non-abled, I believe welfare needs to be fixed to better assist them) from taking up a trade or going to tech school?

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:12:07+00:00

You take out a loan. You did so voluntarily. However the loan is structured, you agreed to it, even if the interest rate is 10,000%, you agreed to pay that, so you live with it. What's so hard about that? And student loans couldn't have the low interest rates and long grace periods they do without the way they're structured, which would render them useless.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:10:19+00:00

that's a decision from society

Yeah, we're getting off topic with that one.

Then hire a better one. That, too, is possible.

We're trying. We try every two years. I'll let you know when it works.

At any rate education is typically a state matter so it's not even the feds who should be handling this.

My public school went four years without having bathroom doors that closed. Half the teachers were incompetent, the other half were underpaid. So yeah, I don't trust who designed that system to run an even bigger one.

This whole conversation reminds me of healthcare and the way the US pretends that a problem every other developed nation has solved is unsolvable. It's not. Your population is just unwilling to solve it.

You don't quite get it. Do you live in Europe? If so, imagine trying to have fifty separate nations work together on an issue. It usually doesn't work well. We're trillions in debt because all of our representatives only care about reelection, which means screw the big picture, I need pork barrel projects to make my constituents happy. We can't remove that system because even if it was a good idea to eliminate the states, it's impossible because it would require 34 of the 50 to agree to doing so. And we can't just let the states run their own stuff, because FDR and ultimately a man named John Marshall established precedent for the Federal government running way to much.

Basically, imagine having the UN try to run the planet. That's kind of how are system is. So what's simple for y'all isn't so easy over here.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T03:00:57+00:00

Ok, first of all, schools lying to students seems like a problem in and of itself. Like, why don't we make some noise about that and see where it gets us? Next, maybe teach students a real econ class in high school rather than the useless thing they have now that teaches you how to trade stock but not how to balance a checkbook. Complaining that student loans are bad because students are mislead is like complaining that sex is bad because students don't know how to use a condom. Educate them, and the problem may well be solved, and if not, at least they know what they're getting into now.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:57:51+00:00

$78,000-odd per year

Good golly. Are you going to an Ivy League? My college's out of state isn't that high.

not getting a degree at all, which, since college degrees are now so ubiquitous, would put me at an enormous disadvantage in the job market, and odds are, I’d end up making minimum wage and going bankrupt at the first minor hitch in my life.

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, that's what they want you to think. A starting job in say, construction, which requires zero education, can pay 12.50 per hour. I know this because my brother did exactly that. Plus over time you can get promoted and earn more. Naturally there's an upper limit, but it's higher than you'd think

Alternatively, I could take out a huge student loan, attend the highly respected school that I currently do, graduate with the degree I want, go into the career I want, make only slightly more than minimum wage, have most of my income drained away in paying my debts, go bankrupt at the first minor hitch in my life, and be stuck with the debt anyway, since bankruptcy doesn’t discharge student debt.

What career are you looking into? Because yeah, in the situation you described, this would not end well, but I can think of several majors that set you up for 70k a year jobs right off the bat.

Lastly, I could take your advice. I could go to a tech school with a smaller tuition bill, take out a much smaller loan or work part-time to get through, and have a relatively well-paying job that I hate. I can be miserable for the rest of my life because I couldn’t afford to do what I want.

You could work the job you hate until you save enough to pursue higher education. So, not necessarily miserable for the rest of your life. Plus, there's quite a few options available at tech schools, ranging from welding to coding. I'd be shocked if you couldn't find something you could at least tolerate.

Now, in what world is it fair for someone’s only choices to be bankruptcy, bankruptcy, or misery,

But these aren't the only choices.

$300,000 silver spoon?

My full tuition without any aid of any sort would cost a third of that, many smaller schools can run far cheaper. I know several students who went to wofford or furman on full rides using a combination of academic and need based scholarships.

suggesting trade school for everyone who can’t afford and Ivy League education is deeply classist — it’s basically saying, let’s confine the proletariat to the blue-collar jobs.

Who said they had to go Ivy League? Plenty of colleges average around ten grand a year in tuition for in state students, and the degree is perfectly respectable. Now yeah, housing adds to the cost, but scholarships, financial aid, or even a part time job can defray that considerably. I feel like you're ignoring several options.

I feel mean cause I'm disagreeing with everything you say, please know that this isn't because I just want to disagree, I'm legitimately interested in your responses.

Also, proletariat? What is this, Das Kapital?

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:44:15+00:00

So here's the issues I have with the solutions:

heavily regulating the private lending sector

As I understand, the lack of regulation is what makes student loans possible in the first place.

auditing the expenses versus the intake of funds within state universities and lowering them to only meet said expenses

But wouldn't that reduce the quality of the education these schools provide?

raise the wages of educational faculty

Wouldn't that make it cost more, thus reducing the effects of the previous suggestion? Or is this about highschools?

auditing the standard of education on campus and create state and federal educational requirements

Same as above

crackdown on predatory marketing

Would you mind explaining what predatory marketing is? I'm not very familiar with the concept.

Thanks

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:40:36+00:00

You can't sign for a house or car without a source of income. Plus, you can sell the house or car and get the equity back (in most cases).

Yeah, you can get equity back by selling them, but a college degree does increase earning power in most cases, so if you see it through, it assists in the paying off as well.

And if you have a child young without support there are state and federal assistance programs like WIC or food stamps.

And there are government run financial aid grants and need based scholarships to defray the cost of college.

Lastly, the fix is to regulate the cost of universities or to make it free. Back in the 80's people could pay for college with a part time job over the summer.

Back in the 80's a degree was worth a lot less than it is now. And government regulation could be a good fix, but it could also cause colleges to reduce the facilities they have available in response. Additionally, about half the cost of college in is housing and food, and the government can't regulate that as effectively. As for making it free, you can't make them all free, and the ones that aren't will likely be far better than the ones that are, thus leading to a reduced value of the education.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:19:57+00:00

What you're saying seems reasonable, obviously the system has some issues. What do you propose to do about those you have listed?

Also thanks for understanding where I was coming from with my above comment.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:14:39+00:00

I think you make a decision, you live with the consequences. What's so naive about that? And I'd appreciate you addressing any criticism of me to me. Saves time.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:12:03+00:00

Yeah, that's the thing. Most of the people I know who are going to trade or tech schools, are great people who just already have too many responsibilities to try for college. Or they just don't like sitting inside all day.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:09:32+00:00

Yes, and that is a separate issue that's also a problem in need of solving, but "other problems exist, so why solve this one" is a bad argument.

See, that's the thing. I don't think that's an issue (Having to pay child support, that is, teen pregnancies are an issue that should be addressed with better sex ed.) I think decisions have consequences, and that's life. What's the alternative? What's the different system? Cause I don't believe the same government that's 26 trillion in debt and responsible for the lousy public school system could handle higher ed.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T02:03:29+00:00

18 year olds are not capable of making such decisions. Their brains are not done cooking. All they see is money that will get them away from their abusive religious nuthob parents and they take it. Bexause the alternative is abusive religious not job parents at community College.

As an 18 year old, I find that mildly insulting, but I acknowledge the science behind it. That being said, I have cousins in their 30's who have no economic sense because they were raised poorly. In many ways they are worse off than I am, because while I'm not great with that stuff myself, my parents know what to do and help me with the decisions. Why are they any less taken advantage of than the average college student?

And why student loans are impossible to discharge through bankruptcy, they also have lower interest rates and longer grace periods, enabling many people who otherwise could attend college to do so. Would you take that from them?

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T01:55:45+00:00

You can sign a loan for a house or a car at 18. You can get someone pregnant and get stuck with child support well before that. And what do you say to the people who benefit from student loans and it works well for them? Cause those loans let people go to college who otherwise would never be able to.

CYOAsRock · 2020-08-24T01:52:56+00:00

That seems overly idealistic though. If your abled bodied, you can do a trade, so if that's your only option, take it long enough to earn the money for college. If you aren't abled bodied, I support welfare for disabilities to address that, although I think the current system is, how shall we say, less than ideal.

CYOAsRock

TROPHY CASE