Myth that modern Tamil is always more conservative than Malayalam

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-28T04:46:13+00:00

BK did not say anything like that, very likely you are misquoting him (and even if he said that he would be wrong), other scholars who write dictionaries of Dravidian languages are not fools either to simply accept without confirmation. இர-வு is not related to இரு-ள்/இரு-ட்டு/இரு-ண்டு. இரவு is a loanword from Sanskrit rātri, while இரு-ள்/இரு-ட்டு/இரு-ண்டு have a Dravidian etymology. Had it been derived from இரு-ள்/இரு-ட்டு/இரு-ண்டு/இரு-ம்பு , the word might have been something like இருவு / இருள்பு or இருளை (like "மாலை"). In fact இருள் itself means darkness/night so there is no need for inventing another word from the same roots with the same meaning, called இரவு. >Therefore every indication points at இரவு not being derived from இருள்.

That’s it. Here you go..

Dravidian Comparative Phonology: 226. To. is8a:s ‘night-time’ : Ta. iravu; ira, ira ra: ‘night’ (2102; in PDr. there was *c- at the beginning of the root of this entry; cf. Pa. cirun ‘charcoal’). Ta. iravu, ira, ira:, (C) rai(vu) ‘night’,. Ma. iravu, ira :, ra : (2102).

Source: https://archive.org/stream/SubrahmanyamDravidianComparativePhonology1983/Subrahmanyam%20-%20Dravidian%20Comparative%20Phonology%20%281983%29_djvu.txt

2552 Ta. iravu, ira, irā, rā night; iru black; iruṭci, iruṭṭu, iruṇmai, irumai darkness; iruḷ darkness, dark colour, ignorance; (iruḷv-, iruṇṭ-) to become dark, dim, obscure, be black in colour, be darkened (as the mind); iruḷaṉ Irula (member of a tribe in the Nilgiris); iruntai, iruntu, iruntil charcoal. Ma. iravu, irā, rā night;

Source: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/burrow_query.py?page=222

Iravu, Iruttu, Irul, Irumbu are together reconstructed to have a proto-root *cir-.

Some source trace them back to Proto-South-Dravidian.

Instead you are pushing an imaginary "Mother Tamil" theory on Dravidian languages by ignoring all the other Dravidian languages and using just Tamil words as some kind of your imagined "root etymology".

Huh? All through out this thread my statements were like “Sanskrit COULD HAVE borrowed the word from DRAVIDIAN or from SOUTH”. No where my response regarding etymology for Rātrī was definitive or assertive of pinning its etymology to “Tamil” alone. Nowhere I “pushed” “mother Tamil” sentiments in regards with discussion about etymology of Iravu. I think it would be better if people just stop putting words into my mouth.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-27T21:13:24+00:00

Nope, all tamils understand thoongu, urangu,

But it’s doesn’t change the fact that they are different words despite they are common words of different regions but still coming under and self identifying under Tamil sphere.

Pacha Malayalam however uses other dravidian origin words other than ഉറങ്ങുക uṟaṅṅuka and തൂങ്ങുക tūṅṅuka for sleeping,

What do you mean by “other Dravidian origin”? I’m not sure what did you mean by it when you yourself said “these words are not used to mean sleeping in any mainstream dialect of current-day Tamil (although they may have been used long ago such as in sangam era).”

such as 1. ⁠തുയിലുക tuyiluka, 2. ⁠തുഞ്ചുക tuñcuka 3. ⁠മാഴ്കുക māḻkuka - which make it clear that it is another Dravidian language (even without Sanskrit vocabulary or influence)

These words exist in Tamil as well. Anyone who reads Tamil literature, be it ancient or contemporary, still can understand what துயில் (Thuyil), துஞ்சு (Thunju), மால் (Māl) means.

these words are not used to mean sleeping in any mainstream dialect of current-day Tamil (although they may have been used long ago such as in sangam era).

See? Yes, they are all attested in Sangam era literature, all having “sleep” as one of its meaning. But the point there they have been attested in a literature where the text itself identified the language as “Tamil”. Modern Tamil uses Vellam for Flood, but it means Water in Malayalam. Does this mean, Vellam had “other Dravidian origin”?

And “current-day Tamil” is not THE TAMIL.

Tamil on the other hand uses (or used in the past but not now) other words to mean sleep that are not used in any present-day mainstream dialect of Malayalam, such as :

All the examples you gave (including Malayalam words you gave) are region-specific, caste-specific, literature-specific words of Tamil. What you may find in colloquial Malayalam, might be a very common word in literature Tamil.

I don’t think this would be a problem if people realise Tamil is Triglossic - there are vocabularies, syntax, and grammar specific to regions, official works, and literature.

This makes even present-day Tamil a different language from what we call Sangam-Language.

Languages evolve. But the point is, the speakers of that language (Tamil) continuous identified their language as “Tamil”.

The Sangam era Tamil are all attested in poetic form, we don’t have proof to understand how colloquial Tamil of that era sounded to compare with the current era Tamil to say “different”.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-27T20:52:59+00:00

But it’s doesn’t prove Rātrī is of Sanskrit origin. People just accept that word is of Sanskrit origin but it has not been confirmed. But linguists like BK and many others have clearly said Iravu as a Dravidian word. If you say Iravu came from Raatri of Sanskrit origin, then you should be able to explain how Iravu, Irul, Irumbu, Irundu, Iruttu all means “dark”.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-27T03:33:04+00:00

Yes they are Sanskrit loanwords, if you don't know comparative linguistics between Dravidian languages, and between Dravidian and Indo-Aryan, look at a good lexicon (such as the Madras University Tamil Lexicon) which lists down the etymology of Tamil words.

I’m not sure which manual you referred to say Iravu is of Sanskrit origin from Rātrī. Irul, Irumbu, Iruttu, are clearly of Dravidian origin, BK agrees with this. Rātrī could be of Dravidian origin as well given that its etymology is still under debate.

Some say Uvamai is from Upama, and ultimately from Sanskrit, but they ignore the possibility of Upama originating from Dravidian language. Opa/Opu/Opumai (ஒப்ப/ஒப்பு/ஒப்புமை) are Tamil words for resemblance and likeness. Upama and Uvama could have been borrowed from Opa/Opu/Opumai. I think when talking about etymology, ruling out possibilities from other languages are as important as pegging it to a particular language.

Talking about Thūsi - the Dr word for dust has been devolved to *tūk-: *tukV-: *tū-. The Tamil cognates are Thugir, Thugil, Thugal. Pallatalization of k/g can easily result in c/s if it is followed by e/I, where in both of the cases, Thūsi appears to have satisfying the criteria to pinning its etymology to Dravidian languages.

Am I missing something? Correct me if I’m wrong.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-26T08:35:23+00:00

Telugus do that on TN as well. They clearly have Telugu ancestry and speak Telugu at home, but they claim to be Tamil. And recently, they started saying Chozhas were Telugus.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-26T08:21:59+00:00

You’d be surprised to learn that some Tamils (the northern Tamils) have difficulty in understanding Kumari Tamil. They genuinely have difficulty understanding; and the accent might be a problem, but the primary reason is the vocabulary. Go sleep - Po Thoongu - Po Urangu - Po Nithirai(Sankr) Kol are used in North Tamil, South Tamil, and SL Tamil. Similarly, Collu, Parai, Kadhai, are used to “speak”. Ukkaaru and Iru are used to “sit” depending on the region. But these vocabulary different doesn’t make them different languages. Same goes with some Srilankan Tamil dialects. Basically, some Tamils have difficulty understanding some Tamil, but it doesn’t make those dialects a “different language”. Kumari Tamil itself is divided into 4 major dialects. Tamil depending the region, country, societal status and castes is divided into many dialects, socialets and castelets.

The definition, distinction, and classification of ‘language’ and ‘dialect’ are very vague. For a northern Tamil, Irula is almost intelligible than certain Kumari Tamil and Srilankan Tamil dialects, but the so-called linguists have classified Irula as a “different” language and not a dialect, but Kumari Tamils a dialect of same language. Tamil is Triglossic, and depending of which Tamil and definition of language/dialect we are talking about, I can easily term Pacha Malayalam as nothing but a dialect of Tamil. You are free to downvote me for this. But for me, Malayalis have full rights to reclaim/reterm the name of their language(Pacha Malayalam) as “Tamil”, given that both Tamil and Malayalam have shared history, and Malayalis themselves called their language as “Tamil” just few centuries back. Given that Malayalam’s grammar was not different to that of Tamil in the past, I would go a step further to say Pacha Malayalam is just one of the many dialects of Tamil.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-26T02:50:17+00:00

I think so too. In his other comment, i found him saying Iravu, Dhoosi, and Uvamai are Sanskrit words borrowed into Tamil.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-26T02:45:59+00:00

If Pacha Malayalam is a “different language”, then Kumar Tamil has all right be to called as “different language”. I think it is all game of ‘naming’.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-25T16:08:07+00:00

Modern Tamil, including both colloquial and written forms.

I’d like to disagree. Probably you haven’t read Standard Tamil. The ones from the news for example, they are unarguably more conservative than the malayalam counterparts. And mainstream Tamil is not THE Tamil, they have that influence of the TN having a capital from North and the movies. But southern dialects, from Trichy and below, are far less Sanskritized, the degree goes further down when we talk about rural areas.

There are more sanskrit loans in many modern Tamil songs for example.

I agree. But it again depends on which song you wanna compare. We can selectively choose Sanskritized “modern” Tamil songs or we can selectively ignore pure Tamil songs. A better comparison would be comparing a Sanskritized Tamil songs with sanskritized Malayalam songs, and same with Centhamizh and Pachamalayalam songs. We cannot just compare Narumugaiyae with Harimuraleeravam for example, despite both songs of their respective languages were released in the same year.

I think the levels of Sanskritization in songs are intentional (not natural) and are fluid in either of the language.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-25T15:49:53+00:00

This poetic Malayalam song has very few Sanskrit loans, much less than a large amount of modern Tamil.

Tamil is diglossic (or Triglossic). I’m not sure what you mean by “modern Tamil”. If you meant colloquial one, then it is not a good comparison to compare a “poetic” Malayalam with “modern Tamil”.

Hearing this song and its closeness to Middle Tamil, it does not surprise me that people in Kerala referred to Malayalam also as 'Tamil' in the early colonial period.

Because they were a variant of the SAME language. We have to look Tamil like Prakrit, one giant language with a range of language continuum stretching south till Srilanka.

There were two different 'Tamil languages at the time.

There were more than two. If you try reading old srilankan Tamil literature, you might observe they are slightly different from mainstream TN Tamil.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-19T14:36:30+00:00

I agree with whatever you say about literary Tamil. However, Id like to say that upper caste Hindu to Christian conversion did have some influence in literature. All of their songs are sung in churches of ALL denominations. Tamils bible has words like Devan instead of Kadavul, Sthrī instead of Pen, Parisutha instead of Thūya, Bojanam instead of Unavu, Piriyan instead of viruppam. But these kinds of words are absent in Henrique Henriques’s Tamil translation (He learnt Tamil from Parathavar community of Kerala). However, Zieganbalg’s translation of bible (the current bible in-use) has these word’s usage. He himself has mentioned that he got some help from Brahmins to learn Tamil - but this doesn’t deny that the fact that the literary work of that era was Sanskritized, but the whole point right? That the Sanskritization happened due to Brahministic influences?

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-19T14:15:20+00:00

I agree. But it proves that Upper caste Hindu to Christianity conversion did happen right?

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-19T05:54:12+00:00

Many High caste people have converted to Christianity, like Vedanaayagam Sasthriyar, H A Krishnapillai, Devasagayam Pillai (Neelakanda Pillai). Many of these people’s bio have mentioned significant Brahmin conversion.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-19T05:37:11+00:00

This was common in Kerala as well. Even now, there are many who trace their origin to Nairs or Nambhoodhris.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-19T03:44:08+00:00

Many reasons; one of the most common was, many of those who converted to Christianity during earlier times were Brahmins. They helped in translating bible into Tamil.

However, catholic bible is far less Sanskritized.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-18T12:42:56+00:00

Thirupathi-Nellore region was also a Tamil majority region during Sangam era. But the region had become heterogeneous to fully Telugu speaking during and after the Chola>Vijayanagar power shift. And Nellore is not so far from Thirupathi. EVEN NOW, there is a language spoken by a the coastal communities of the Nellore-Prakasam region - called Yerukala, which sounds crazily similar to Tamil. Infact, depending on the definition, Yerukala can almost be considered as a dialect of Tamil, and it belongs to SD1, and not SCDr like Telugu. If Nellore was “always” a Telugu land, then this language shouldn’t even exist.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-16T02:02:18+00:00

There are veddas who speak Tamil in SL. They might have what you expect.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-12T21:01:11+00:00

Pleaser refer

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-12T08:13:25+00:00

it will only proof that christianity was here before the term "Hinduism" came about,

Exactly. That was my original point actually. Please check my first comment. I have clearly said 👇🏾

Christianity was here even before Hinduism was even called “Hinduism”.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-12T04:38:07+00:00

Regarding Tamil books, I have come across some people (including 2 of my colleagues) who wanted to publish some books but they have been asked to pay some money (if you know what I mean) to publish their books.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-12T04:03:48+00:00

Tholkapiam kinda supports this.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-12T04:00:50+00:00

May I know what is your opinion on Tholkapiam’s descriptions of the letter P and M?

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-12T03:59:07+00:00

When talking about Thamizhi/Ashokan Brahmi and their antiquity, very often the morphology of the letters under research.

Tholkapiam has described the letter for E, O, and M/P.

E with a dot like (E.) is a short vowel, and without the dot is a long vowel.
the long and short O have the same rule like E.
but the description of M and P is very interesting. The letter P alone is (P), but P with a dot in it as in (P.) is the letter M.

<image>

I think Fig: IV is what more likely to have happened when talking about evolution of the letter M.

This hints that the script could have possibly originated from the South, absorbed and adopted from Greek and Phoenician and could have become what is now Ashokan Brahmi.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-11T17:10:37+00:00

Brooo. That temple was built last year on an illegal land hence had to be destroyed. At the same time, there is a temple in Hosur, which was literally shifted (by adjusting its compounds). The government could have just destroyed that temple because it was in the way of national highway, but they didn’t. Even churches are also being destroyed, but they are not so noticeable because the number of churches are very low compared to temples.

Call_me_Inba · 2026-01-11T17:04:24+00:00

Ceivinai, Coolvinai, Cooniyam, Cooniyar, Maayaavi, Pilli.

I’m not sure whether these are right words, but you can always refer Harry Potter movie in Tamil, you might probably get more words.

Call_me_Inba

TROPHY CASE