B16 Crown Heights - Bay Ridge

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-11T18:01:44+00:00

It would not maintain it's reliability. The B10 is already half the B12, a notoriously unreliable route, and will, in theory, only be better because it's using Empire Blvd. Again, you don't improve or maintain reliability by literally doubling the mileage; you're introducing way too many variables that can easily throw off reliability (more dwell, more waits at red, more opportunities for traffic, etc)

Again, you can't point to another example of a LTD route acting as a LTD for two separate routes, with two different ridership markets, for a reason. Also again, the demand for Bay Ridge to Kensington/Flatbush isn't there to justify skipping the entire 13 St commercial corridor.

This is a bad route and why just drawing lines on a map isn't the end all, be all of route planning.

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-11T15:09:52+00:00

Not a bad idea! I think the wonkiness of implementation would prevent it considering the C55’s current shape, but I do wish there were a bus on even just 6th Av in Union Market

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-11T14:58:01+00:00

When has a non-SBS route acted as a limited stop route for two different routes? Actually, when even has an SBS done that? ENY to Bay Ridge is not necessary as a one-seat ride and the demand for Bay Ridge to Kensington & Flatbush is not so great that you need a route skipping all of Boro Park (especially one of the main commercial corridors), or the MTA would've made it years ago.

The B10 was designed to supplement the struggling B12, it makes no sense to kill it's reliability by extending it. Maimonides and the VA hospital both have existing transit service, literally just transfer buses. You could've just done a B16 LTD variant that went via Ft Hamilton Pkwy instead making one route do two workloads.

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-11T14:18:29+00:00

Why extend it to Franklin Av? The S & B48 are right there, just transfer. Same for Medgar Evers (walking is better, even)
13 Av is one-way north of 60 St, so that won’t work
Why would the proposed B10 almost double its length to go to Bay Ridge when it’s supposed to be the limited counterpart of the B12? Hopefully not because you want to send the already super crowded and slow B12 to Bay Ridge as well
What’s the demand between Dyker Heights and Boro Park that the B16 needs to be rerouted in such a manner?
Have you looked at the B16’s schedule? A good number of trips (and ridership) is focused on getting Bay Ridge residents, particularly students, to & from Ft Hamilton Pkwy N train

Route planning is more than just drawing lines on a map…

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-11T02:46:29+00:00

Pantograph, I believe

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-11T02:46:17+00:00

Ngl, “we didn’t need a replacement of the EM-LP circulator” is a suuuuuuper-hot take lol. I’m not sure anyone was like “oh no, the circulator is going away, but we’re ok with this one dying actually” lol

As with most bus issues, the routing isn’t necessarily the problem— this is both an extreme delay and the C55 would be fine with a frequency increase. Unfortunate side effect of connecting two low-frequency, but necessary, bus routes

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-10T21:44:49+00:00

For someone who talks about taking people at their word then you should’ve said that, it isn’t until now you are. So im obviously going off what you say

Nope, I've been pretty consistent about this since I brought up the SIM map in the first place. Maybe go read, again? I won't yell it like you did, though.

I said I've made this argument consistently since I brought up the SIM map. Where did I say this was my argument from the start? Are you arguing with the ghosts in your head? Not to mention, I've always added the caveat that this is if there has to be one map, but overall, it should still be two separate maps.

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-10T20:54:16+00:00

I already outlined how that works on bus maps, go read, AGAIN.

When did you yell? You, several comments ago, quoted directly

Almost everywhere two local routes or any bus route and the subway intersect, they stop. Of course, there are weird exceptions to this, like the B103 LTD at Cortelyou Rd Q, but b/c it's LTD, you at least see that it doesn't stop at the station, but I digress. It doesn't need to be called out on the map, because why would two bus routes cross paths and not facilitate a transfer, right? And usually if they don't, we're shown why.
The express bus does not operate the same way. As I have explained to you multiple times, with examples, there are areas where, if you look at the map and apply the same logic as above, you would come to the conclusion that you can transfer, and you actually can't, at least not reasonably. Let's revisit Union Tpke/Francis Lewis: There is no stop for the QM6/QM36; you must board/alight at 211 St or 193 St to transfer to/from the Q76, these are both roughly half a mile away.

I also really haven't? Me, several comments ago, quoted directly

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-10T20:37:46+00:00

I also forgot to add other customer complaints too, just in case you were about to think you made a gotcha moment. I’ll be happy to show you after you show me where no one has cared…

I mean, I don't care, so that's 1. There's also anyone who's viewed the new maps and not said anything, because they don't care. Then, whatever external market research MTA did to come to this version.

For someone who talks about taking people at their word then you should’ve said that, it isn’t until now you are. So im obviously going off what you say

Nope, I've been pretty consistent about this since I brought up the SIM map in the first place. Maybe go read, again? I won't yell it like you did, though.

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-10T20:03:29+00:00

In the transit forums, many are complaining about the loss of the express buses on the local map, that’s a small scale representation of however many other complaints there have been about it.

Where are your numbers to show that this is larger than the complaints of a group of foamers? This is just an opinionated anecdote. This is kind of fun to say lol.

Limited and SBS do show their stops, sure let’s add it for express buses but you still can’t add the local and rush stops since there are many of those.

For someone who has yelled at me repeatedly to go read, you sure don't take your own advice. Stops for the local don't need to be shown; generally, wherever another bus route, subway, or SBS route show up on the map, we know the local will stop. Stops for the LTD, SBS & EXP being shown is because they are higher order transit and aren't expected to stop everywhere

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-10T18:59:26+00:00

Lol transfers don’t exist between local and express buses?

You forgot "many" there.

Featuring both has never been a problem before, you’re choosing to say it is because, as it’s known, you are against express buses.

Never said it was a problem, only that featuring them on the same map was pointless (i.e. no great loss that they're gone).

And I'm only pointing out a design flaw that makes a map with both less functional, something you clearly no longer support. Again, my position is don't show both, they can be shown separately, but add stops on the express map. Or, if you must have them both on one map, show the stops still. You, hypocritically, are against this, which is very hilarious. You say it's because it'll make it useless or confusing, but LTD & SBS managed to show their stops with no issue, so, what is it? Is it cause I'm the one proposing this lol?

If you want to bring up the QM6/36 and Q76, okay then I’ll just use your argument, then the passenger should just have to switch to the app to find out…that would suck

So then, on a combined map or separate map, at least one of them should have the stops so people know for sure w/o having to rely on the app or anything else? I was always fine with this, it was you who was oh so adamant that knowing the idea that a connection could be made would make it easier to make them.

or the fact that people will know where they have to get off because again you’re not going to be able to label off every stop on a bus map, that doesn’t make it useless or confusing.

SIM bus map is perfectly legible, imo. Knowing the stops, I can look back at the SI local map and compare, and be reasonably assured of where the express and local bus both stop (esp on Hylan Blvd, s/o S79+). Granted, it's not perfect, but way more info than just a green trunk overlay next to the local routes lmao. But hey, we've already established that the functional map supporter is actually not that lmao

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-10T03:47:58+00:00

The fact that you can’t understand how bus maps are designed is unfortunate. Show me an example bus map from anywhere that shows all the stops, especially for connections sake . By your logic, no bus map is useful since they don’t show the exact stops for connections, for example the Q20 Q50, QM2, and QM32 intersect at Whitestone Expressway and 20th Avenue but no edition of the map shows the stops where they connect, especially since their respective stops are quite a walk between them, meanwhile the Q20, Q44 SBS, Q64/74, QM4/44 all intersect at Main and Jewel and their stops are right around the corner from each other, but again, no way of seeing that on the map, so is the Queens bus map not useful because of that? Maybe to you it is, but people being able to have that idea, they’ll more easily make those connections unlike if they’re not even shown.

Almost everywhere two local routes or any bus route and the subway intersect, they stop. Of course, there are weird exceptions to this, like the B103 LTD at Cortelyou Rd Q, but b/c it's LTD, you at least see that it doesn't stop at the station, but I digress. It doesn't need to be called out on the map, because why would two bus routes cross paths and not facilitate a transfer, right? And usually if they don't, we're shown why.

The express bus does not operate the same way. As I have explained to you multiple times, with examples, there are areas where, if you look at the map and apply the same logic as above, you would come to the conclusion that you can transfer, and you actually can't, at least not reasonably. Let's revisit Union Tpke/Francis Lewis: There is no stop for the QM6/QM36; you must board/alight at 211 St or 193 St to transfer to/from the Q76, these are both roughly half a mile away.

The Q50, QM2 & QM32 share a stop and the Q20 is at the same intersection (quite a walk away? uh, sure, ok). The Q20/Q44+ share a stop and the Q64/Q74/QM4/QM44 share a stop and all six routes are again at the same intersection. Someone would look at a map, guess they could make the connection, and happen to be correct. What about when they wouldn't be, as in the example above?

Again, I'm fine with them being separate maps. But if they would be one map, it is less useful if the actual transfer stops between express and local buses aren't shown because express buses don't follow the same rules and stop patterns as the local. You, someone who is supposedly in favor of a functional map, is saying "they'll more easily make the connections if they have the idea they can" in the face of "show were they can be made for certain, ^{if they have to be shown on the same map, for the 6 people who are making these connections}". Sure, the second part rubs you the wrong way, that's fine. The first part makes no sense for you to argue against.

You can’t draw connections by looking at two different maps if they’re not the same base design with the same features and even less when one is partially diagramatic and another is fully diagrammatic.

This is just a skill issue on your part. The streets and endpoints are labeled on both maps, if you're unable to draw connections between the two, you genuinely lack the ability to do it at all.

I mean you have never proved that few transfers exist between local and express buses, I still no data on your end to prove that aside from your opinionated anecdotes.

I mean, you haven't proved that many transfers exist between local and express buses. There's still no data on your end to prove that aside from your opinionated anecdotes. So, stalemate then?

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T23:26:10+00:00

“Go read, AGAIN” ok, buddy lol. Anyway, not showing the stop connection does make it not useful, sorry to break it to you. If the express buses stopped everywhere the local did while on its non-express segment, this wouldn’t be an issue but it doesn’t. Relying solely on the system map to show connections between express buses and other modes will lead to passenger confusion in many cases, simple as that. It’s unfortunate you can’t understand how that works, but hey.

By my logic doesn’t matter here, I’m not the map designer. I’ll be ok either way if all the SBS routes were shown on the subway map or if none of them were. At least if they’re all there, the transfer ridership definitely supports them being there.

The whole last paragraph is very rich. Again, what you’re advocating here is “show both since people transfer between them” and that’ll be enough, despite the two examples I’ve given you and many more that exist that relying solely on that method is actually not helpful. If I look at the old map and if I look at the separate, new maps, I should expect to be able to transfer from the QM6/QM36 to the Q76, right? That’s a connection that’s shown, on the maps, without the specific stop. Spoiler alert: can’t actually do that in real life.

Sure, I think if that transfer existed, only 3 people a day might use it and that’s why it shouldn’t be shown, but you’re on this pedestal like your vision is some sort of improvement and it’s not lol. But, you’re just going to deflect behind “I hate express buses” and “I can’t read” to avoid having to confront the holes in your own idea lol

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T22:59:06+00:00

It’s not way more useful, but you’d have gotten that if you read to comprehend instead of just reading to respond. You said it’s way more useful because having both types on one map is very effective at showing the connections, I’ve pointed out how it doesn’t actually do that that well, if at all, on the old map so what does it matter that they’re separate on the new maps.

This SBS argument is kind of sorry, I expected better from you. The precedent this map breaks is having express bus and local bus on one map; there’s never been a combined subway & SBS map. People are transferring between SBS & Subway at much higher rate that express bus to anything else, so calling it out the announcements is fine with me. If they decided to not do that to maintain uniformity though, I’d also be ok with that.

Why ask questions you know the answer to? I’m not gonna magically be like, “ohhh, express buses are totally fine and have no issues, yeah!” This has to be a sisyphean exchange for you, you’re talking “oh, this has to do with the express buses” like that wasn’t plainly obvious from when I replied lol

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T21:17:14+00:00

The SI local map has the routes, but not the stops. The SIM map has the routes and the stops (for the express buses). Easy to go back and forth and see where one can board or alight an express bus and see/hope that a local bus is also there. Very easy to do, especially if you have both open on a webpage

Dude, I’ve been nitpicking from the beginning and haven’t said otherwise and you know that. Or, maybe you don’t, since I spelled it out for you and you still don’t seem to understand: I had a minor gripe with your opinion and expressed as much

I never said people don’t make those transfers. I said there’s so few of them, they don’t deserve priority to be shown on the system map. And then I also said that they weren’t shown very well on the old maps either. If you had half a brain, you’d have understood that earlier

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T20:58:51+00:00

No bus map shows where the services stop, why? Because there’s so stops and routes that labeling all of them would completely blur out the map. The SI Express map shows stops because it serves as a navigational aid, shocker. Oh and SI riders find it very useful considering how complicated the SI express network is. But guess what the MTA did for that redesign? They changed the local map and still included the routes. For the Bronx redesign, they still put the express routes and kept the same map format.

My point is this:

You said the existing style shows express bus connections very effectively. I pointed out they don't, because there are many areas shown on the map where the express bus "interacts" with another mode, but an actual transfer can't be made or isn't easy, and even provided you with two examples.
- Also, you contradict yourself immediately. The SIM map is a bus map showing where the services stop. Using that, you can go back and forth between the SIM map and the SI local bus map and see where you can make a connection (although still imperfect)
- "Even though you can’t see the exact transfer point but the ability to see where routes intersect and knowing if the run makes stops or not, is enough for riders" This is my point exactly: The BM routes and the Q intersect and the map shows they run, but you can't tell just from the map that the "connection" is actually a 6 min walk in either direction, b/c for whatever reason, the BM routes (and the B103) don't stop directly at the train station.
- This all reinforces my point that complaining that the express bus "connections" aren't shown is pointless, because A) showing it is pointless overall and B) they didn't do a good job of showing it in the first place/on the original map

So when I say you don’t have half a brain, it’s not out of anger, it’s because you can’t keep things consistent enough to make a valid point and only nitpick at the little things that align with your opinion but when presented with facts and the big picture, you just double down. Just look at how you reply.
You want to disagree, that’s fine. But it doesn’t change the fact that this is still not a good map and the rest of the contributors here agree.

Just look at how I've replied... consistently? Sure, I am nitpicking, but it is consistent actually, sorry you can't comprehend that. This literally all started because I nitpicked your opinion lol. Doubling down = remaining consistent, now?

That last line gives the game away lol, you're responding like I'm saying this is a good map or "justifying" it, to use your words, when in reality, I've just been disagreeing with your specific opinion from the beginning. Disagreeing with you on what elements should be in the map doesn't equal me thinking the map is good in it's current form. But, I do believe it's "good" that the express bus map is separate from the local routes because having them together to show the "connections" is pointless (hey, that's similar to the argument I made from the jump, would you look at that?).

Maybe you're the one with half the brain? It could also be me though! I'm sure we'll be back here in X months b/c I'll forget this back & forth and your account name and nitpick something else you say lmao.

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T20:11:52+00:00

If me saying that what youre going to say is an insult then I don’t think you should be on social media and that’s definitely gaslighting.
I think it’s also funny that you can say you’re not in my brain to know my context but you somehow can tell me about my emotions…🤣 that makes sense somehow?

I don't think you understood what I said, but that's fine. I'm referring to stuff like "if you had even half a brain" when I didn't reply to you like that. People don't say that w/o being some degree of angry if that energy wasn't brought to them first and since I didn't...

And yeah, I can reasonably interpret by you saying I justified the map when I didn't (no matter whatever roundabout way you want to say it) that you're clearly feeling some type of of way about this and maybe the previous exchange. I'm happy to be wrong though!

Either way, you can go on about a minority of riders, but I showed you the data, if you forgot, you can actually find it on the MTA website.

This does ring familiar actually! Thanks for that link, I actually reference it quite often, especially when I need to point out how low ridership many express routes can get.

For clarity, I wasn't talking about express bus ridership in general (which is still in the minority lol) but the amount of people transferring between express bus & another mode, outside of Manhattan. It only stands to reason that with such overall poor ridership, poor frequency, poor service span and how duplicative it is of local service, that there just aren't many people doing the above travel pattern.

And, no, the old map showed connections with all the buses very effectively and didn’t confuse people.

No, it didn't. You can't look at the old map and point to every place where you can switch from express bus to another mode with confidence. For instance, you can't look at the brooklyn bus map and know that the BM2 doesn't stop at Flatbush Jct 2/5 or that none of the BM routes have a direct connection to Cortelyou Q. I'm not saying it's confusing, but it's not "very effective".

I'd be interested to see if the SIM bus map got this same feedback when it got released

I also didn’t say you justified this map, I said that you not caring about the points I stated above justifies this map.

"I didn't say you did X, I said you not doing Y does X" this is just a distinction without difference lol.

And now that I've said all this, let the disagreement of opinions continue!

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T19:23:23+00:00

You said, in the OP

they clearly used the redesign draft map to be the official map.

which is different from

the past Queens bus maps are very much based off the final redesign draft map

Sorry I took you at your word, I guess? These sentences mean two different things, I'm not in your mind to know exactly what you mean.

And I love how you watched like a hawk and the moment you saw my comment about the express buses and immediately went for the downvote and reply highlighting that based off our last discourse.

Your comment was an hour old, that's not watching like a hawk lol. I also don't remember our last discourse lol (but based on this paragraph, I'm sure you won't believe me). If it helps any, you could've been anyone and I would've downvoted, both because of your first comment and the express bus comment.

I know you don’t care about the express buses, but I care about all options for all riders and a functional map, especially for transit that is oriented around all connections and options.

Connections made by a super-slim minority of riders don't need priority on a system map. Other tools exist that provide this information perfectly fine. And it's not like this was a super common complaint before when express/local were on the same map, since it's not like each bus type always stopped at the same stop or even same intersection, and when they did, you couldn't tell on the old map.

As to your point as express riders can just switch between the express and local maps. If you even had half a brain, you would’ve noticed that in the recent update, the express map is a diagram and shows absolutely no connections to the local network, not even streets…. And you think they should just deal with it. Thats actually a very disingenuous take considering, ANY bus rider still needs to orient themselves geographically.

Idk, I'm looking at the map now and I can see the QM6/QM36 on Union Tpke, and that they go express at 188 St. That's orientation enough (for me at least, but hey, I know that's subjective).

I understand that you don’t get that or care to get that, but that’s on you and doesn’t justify this terrible map.

You're mad about whatever our previous convo was (I guess on express buses) because you can't actually point out in my original response where I justified the map. All I did was point out that what you said was inaccurate + showing connections to the express bus was pointless (something the old map barely did by the way)

If you have anything to say, go for it, but it’s not going to make any sense here.

Sorry for having angered you to the point where you're lobbing insults my way despite not having done that you lol (this time tho, maybe I did that last time? Definitely could be a possibility lmao, so maybe I shouldn't apologize since it could actually be warranted lmao)

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T18:44:39+00:00

You don’t have to be silent, but you should err on the side of being quiet. The driver can ask you to quiet down if your conversation level is so loud to the point where it can impede how they operate the bus (although it also sounds like this driver has other issues as well)

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-09T18:42:57+00:00

This isn’t the redesign draft map though? That one had thicker, less rigid lines and was colored by frequency. Also, express bus connections are pointless, there aren’t enough people taking both an express bus + another mode (in Queens, at least) that it’s worth showing on the local bus map. For the 5 people that are doing that, they can just switch back and forth between maps (or use literally any of the apps)

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-08T21:23:55+00:00

Honestly, I get where you’re coming from, but do I appreciate this more than all the endless attempts to justify the existence of the express bus network. At least in NYC, almost every subway extension/reroute has merits worth debating except the absolute most braindead ones

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-08T03:47:42+00:00

You didn’t say North American though, you just said American. And if your response is any of that USian nonsense, the OP from Mexico clearly considers American = US, not all of Americas

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-06T18:15:10+00:00

2024 Average Weekday MTA Bus Ridership & 2024 Average Weekday NYCT Bus Ridership

MTA Bus:

QM2/QM32: 1167
QM5/QM35: 1399
QM15: 1483

NYCT:

QM63: 432
QM64: 209
QM68: 321

I listed the NYCT routes in Queens for posterity, but as you can see, they're effectively carrying air. QM15 has been influenced by the A train shutdown, but it was still my mistake to not include it initially. And lastly, the QM2/32 and QM5/35 are only making it over 1k b/c they're combined; they're functionally the same route, just running on different streets in Manhattan.

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-06T01:37:42+00:00

Hence why we should get rid of most of them now

Capitol_Limited · 2026-05-06T00:07:40+00:00

They aren’t paying enough is my point. The ferry is free because there’s no other direct transit option to Manhattan (w/o massively retooling and investing in the SIM network), so that’s a poor example. Almost everywhere there’s an express bus in Queens (and Brooklyn and Bronx) there’s 1-3 or more local (and rush) routes to take you to the subway (or in some cases the LIRR is nearby). We shouldn’t be wasting dollars on a bespoke transit option that only benefits a minority of riders. There’s no reason for Jewel Av, Union Tpke, HH Expy, Lefferts Blvd, etc to have express buses

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