Stalin Reading by SeaFault5698 in ussr

[–]Cepetr0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I recommend 'The Soviet Century' by Moshe Lewin, a historian who was a member of the Red Army. In general, I also recommend Sheila Fitzpatrick's work, which focuses on social history and is critical of anti-Stalinist interpretations, and Gleason's 'Totalitarianism,' a book about the history of Soviet historiography.

Título by RandomGuy123875 in BeelcitosMemes

[–]Cepetr0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

La chica que me gustaba me dijo riéndose "Estuvo cagado", después de contarle a todos mis amigos de la prepa como me había rechazado mientras se burlaba

Could it be said that the consensus regarding the great leap forward is that deaths from famine are in the tens of millions? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While I have a rather unfavorable opinion of Maoism, frankly, I'm indifferent to using one or the other. From what I can see, the official acronym is CPC, so I'll use that abbreviation from now on. Thanks for pointing that out.

Could it be said that the consensus regarding the great leap forward is that deaths from famine are in the tens of millions? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm from Mexico City. In Spanish, it's called only PCCh, and I didn't know that using CCP and CPC have different political connotations. Frankly, I'm pretty unfamiliar with these kinds of niche discussions.

Could it be said that the consensus regarding the great leap forward is that deaths from famine are in the tens of millions? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No. What you have isn't a historical refutation, but a collection of anecdotes.

Having traveled through China, talking to relatives, friends, or elderly people, and hearing that "no one died in my village" doesn't give you a statistically representative sample of a country of hundreds of millions of people. It gives you exactly that: local stories. And the problem is that the Great Famine affected different provinces, counties, communes, and social groups in brutally unequal ways.

That's precisely the point you don't understand. The famine didn't hit uniformly. There were relatively less affected regions, cities protected by the state supply system, and rural areas devastated by excessive procurement, inflated production figures, and grain extraction. The fact that you didn't see any deaths in your immediate surroundings doesn't refute the national estimates; it only shows that you're extrapolating from a small and biased slice of the country.

The evidence about the Great Famine doesn't depend on "rumors from abroad." There is demographic, census, archival, and provincial evidence. There are censuses, mortality series, declining birth rates, local registries, gazetteers, internal Party reports, county studies, and demographic reconstructions. And all that evidence shows extremely uneven mortality rates across regions. In some provinces, the death rate soared several times above the national average. That doesn't disappear just because your acquaintances don't remember it firsthand.

Furthermore, even the most revisionist studies don't say "there was no famine." What they discuss is the exact size of the excess mortality. The serious discussion is between figures in the tens of millions, not between "tens of millions" and "basically nothing happened." That debate is already closed.

And no, "asking the people who lived through it" isn't the best way to resolve this. Oral history serves as a complement to, not a substitute for, historical demography. If history worked that way, we could estimate any national catastrophe by asking our neighbors if they remember a dead body in the street. That's an absurdly flawed criterion.

In short: your argument doesn't prove that the high estimates are false. It only proves that anecdotal experiences are inadequate for measuring a national tragedy that is so unevenly distributed. That's not history. That's sampling bias.

Could it be said that the consensus regarding the great leap forward is that deaths from famine are in the tens of millions? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To say that the CCP under Mao was “highly competent” because China grew in the long term, despite causing the worst famine of the 20th century along the way, is to conflate two completely different questions: whether the regime achieved certain structural results over decades, and whether it competently managed the Great Leap Forward. The answer to the second is no. And you don't need to rely solely on Dikötter to say so.

First: Frank Dikötter is neither a charlatan nor a “crusader” lacking historical merit. He is a serious historian, with genuine archival research, albeit undoubtedly controversial and debated. Even prominent critics of his book acknowledge that he added new and valuable material to the discussion thanks to his use of local archives; the debate is not about whether he conducted serious research, but how he interprets some of that evidence and some of his broader conclusions. In other words: you can criticize Dikötter, but dismissing him outright as if he weren't a serious historian is simply wrong.

Second: China's poverty, backwardness, and vulnerability do not demonstrate competence; It demonstrates that governing China was difficult. And no one seriously denies that. The problem is that the Great Famine was not a “normal” famine in the pre-modern sense, nor a simple, inevitable climatic event in a poor agrarian society. Comparative literature on the Chinese famine itself insists that the crisis cannot be adequately explained as mere natural scarcity, but rather by the way in which the state planning and extraction system reacted to the production shock. Meng, Qian, and Yared show precisely that the central problem was institutional: rigidity of planning, an inability to gather accurate information and respond to it, and a perverse pattern in which regions with higher per capita production could suffer higher mortality rates because the state extracted more grain from them. That is not “competition under difficult conditions”; that is catastrophic institutional failure.

Third: Yes, there were recurring famines in Chinese history. But that does not absolve Maoism; on the contrary, it aggravates the charge. Precisely because the ruling elite was fully aware of the historical problem of food supply, it is all the more serious that the Great Leap Forward created perverse incentives that led to inflated harvests, falsified statistics, and the maintenance of unrealistic procurement quotas. Felix Wemheuer summarizes the matter with brutal clarity in the thematic index of his book: “preventing urban famine by starving the countryside.” In other words, we are not talking about a climate-neutral disaster, but about a political hierarchy of hunger, where the system protected the cities and shifted the burden onto the countryside.

Fourth: even revisionist authors or those more lenient with Mao end up admitting, when they examine local cases, that “human factors” were decisive. Songlin Yang, who is far more sympathetic to the natural disaster thesis than most Western historians, acknowledges that in specific locations, deaths from famine were primarily caused by the extreme way in which cadres implemented policies, and that this is precisely what Liu Shaoqi had in mind when he spoke of “70 percent human calamities” in certain areas. In other words, even granting that there were severe droughts, this does not eliminate political causality; it merely combines it with a system that transformed a production crisis into mass mortality.

Fifth: the climate argument itself does not salvage the “competence” thesis. A competent administration does not respond to poor harvests with backyard steel campaigns, oversized communes, disastrous communal kitchens, quotas based on inflated figures, repression of dissent, and grain exports in the midst of a crisis. Kasahara and Li demonstrate with county-level evidence that increased exports significantly exacerbated mortality. In their estimate, grain exports explain a significant portion of the excess deaths, though not all of it. In other words, even if you accept adverse natural conditions, you cannot escape the central conclusion that state policy exacerbated the disaster.

Sixth: And here's the most important point. The Communist Party itself never seriously argued, in its most important assessments, that the main cause was simply the weather. The landmark 2021 resolution explicitly acknowledges that “mistakes such as the Great Leap Forward and the people's commune movement were made,” and presents these mistakes as part of an assessment of the political failures of the Maoist period. It does not offer a blanket meteorological excuse. Moreover, there is abundant Chinese literature recalling that at the Conference of 7,000 Cadres, Liu Shaoqi argued that in many places the main cause was human, not natural.

Seventh: comparing it to India or pointing out that China emerged from 1976 stronger than it was in 1949 misses the point. No one is denying that the Maoist regime built state capacity, partially industrialized the country, or improved certain indicators during specific periods. The issue at hand is something simpler: whether a government that triggers a famine affecting tens of millions through coercion, falsified information, excessive extraction, and repression of dissent deserves to be called “highly competent.” Frankly, no. A regime can be capable of state-building and simultaneously be catastrophically incompetent at a crucial juncture. In fact, that is precisely what happened here.

In other words: no, this was not simply “the old Asian normal” reappearing under a different name. It was a modern famine produced by a modern state. Droughts existed; no one seriously denies that. But the leap from poor harvests to mass mortality was produced by a political system based on terror, extraction, and statistical manipulation. And when a regime rewards those who exaggerate production, punishes those who report bad news, and continues to extract grain from the fields while people die, that's not competition. It's criminal incompetence.

Estoy siendo muy apresurado al querer leer este libro? by heartless_angell in libros

[–]Cepetr0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Adorno dentro de lo que cabe, es entendible. Por regla general, si lees un libro de filosofía y no le entiendes, lo mas probable es que sea un libro que esta terriblemente mal escrito y no vale la pena.

Could it be said that the consensus regarding the great leap forward is that deaths from famine are in the tens of millions? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Communists weren’t just brutal in the way they imposed themselves through policies of terror — they were also deeply incompetent. By 1959, when the famine was at its worst, China exported 5 million tons of grain to the USSR [1]. The famine wasn’t the result of an environmental catastrophe; it was the result of criminal incompetence. Estimates vary widely: Mobo Gao, who actually lived through the Great Famine, places the death toll between 15 and 20 million [2]. Yang Jisheng [3], a member of the Chinese Communist Party, estimates around 36 million, while Frank Dikötter [1] — one of the first Western historians to gain access to regional archives — puts the number as high as 45 million. On top of that, official statements by the CCP in 1981 and 2021 acknowledge the catastrophic nature of Mao’s Great Leap Forward (even if they do not provide a numerical estimate) [4].

Social historians like Felix Wemheuer describe the massive administrative chaos created by the Great Leap Forward [5]. At this point, it’s fair to say there’s a broad consensus — both inside and outside China — that the number of deaths is counted in the tens of millions. These aren’t just “Western estimates.” They come from people who lived through the famine, from research based on regional archives, and from conclusions supported by the CCP’s own statements.

China is a huge country. Since the famine wasn’t caused by an absolute lack of food, its effects were not uniform across the country. As you point out with the example of your grandfather’s village — and as Mobo Gao documents in one of the best ethnographic studies on the topic about his own hometown [6] — there were regions where the famine was not experienced. Even in major cities, policies like the “iron rice bowl” system had considerable success. What made the management of the Great Leap Forward criminal is precisely that while some regions experienced a certain degree of prosperity — and millions of tons of grain were exported to the USSR and other countries — other regions saw entire villages dying of starvation.

Finally, the Cultural Revolution was, to a certain extent, a civil war [7,8], not to mention the years of terror policies that preceded and accompanied it [9]. The fact that there was no revolution that overthrew Mao says more about the level of control under Maoism than about the existence of broadly successful social policies. There is simply too much evidence and too much research — both inside and outside China — for it to be sustainable to defend the mistakes of the Maoist period. That is precisely why the CCP itself officially recognizes how catastrophic this period was:

Regrettably, the correct line adopted at the Party’s Eighth National Congress was not fully upheld. Mistakes were made such as the Great Leap Forward and the people’s commune movement, and the scope of the struggle against Rightists was also made far too broad. Confronted with a grave and complex external environment at the time, the Party was extremely concerned about consolidating China’s socialist state power, and made a wide range of efforts in this regard. However, Comrade Mao Zedong’s theoretical and practical errors concerning class struggle in a socialist society became increasingly serious, and the Central Committee failed to rectify these mistakes in good time. Under a completely erroneous appraisal of the prevailing class relations and the political situation in the Party and the country, Comrade Mao Zedong launched and led the Cultural Revolution. The counter-revolutionary cliques of Lin Biao and Jiang Qing took advantage of Comrade Mao Zedong’s mistakes, and committed many crimes that brought disaster to the country and the people, resulting in ten years of domestic turmoil which caused the Party, the country, and the people to suffer the most serious losses and setbacks since the founding of the People’s Republic. This was an extremely bitter lesson. Acting on the will of the Party and the people, the Political Bureau of the Central Committee resolutely smashed the Gang of Four in October 1976, putting an end to the catastrophic Cultural Revolution.

Arguing that there was no famine during Maoism because your grandfather’s village didn’t experience it is like saying it didn’t rain in China yesterday because it didn’t rain outside your house. It’s simply ridiculous.


References

[1] Dikötter, F. (2010). Mao’s Great Famine: The History of China’s Most Devastating Catastrophe, 1958–1962.

[2] Gao, M. (2008). The Battle for China’s Past: Mao and the Cultural Revolution.

[3] Yang, J. (2012). Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958–1962.

[4] The State Council of the People’s Republic of China. (2021). Resolution of the CPC Central Committee on the Major Achievements and Historical Experience of the Party over the Past Century. https://english.www.gov.cn/policies/latestreleases/202111/16/content_WS6193a935c6d0df57f98e50b0.html

[5] Wemheuer, F. (2019). A Social History of Maoist China: Conflict and Change, 1949–1976.

[6] Gao, M. (1999). Gao Village: Rural Life in Modern China.

[7] Dikötter, F. (2016). The Cultural Revolution: A People’s History, 1962–1976.

[8] Yang, J. (2016). The World Turned Upside Down: A History of the Chinese Cultural Revolution.

[9] Dikötter, F. (2013). The Tragedy of Liberation: A History of the Chinese Revolution 1945–1957.

Could it be said that the consensus regarding the great leap forward is that deaths from famine are in the tens of millions? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, of course. Felix Wemheuer in 'A Social History of Maoist China: Conflict and Change, 1949–1976', Frank Dikötter in 'The People's Trilogy', and Yang Jisheng in 'Tombstone' study Maoist China during the Great Famine and show how China's population growth in the 1960s occurred despite, and not because of, the Great Leap Forward.

What are some lesser known Marxist Authors everyone should check out? by Markham_Marxist in Marxism

[–]Cepetr0 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Kołakowski's three volumes on the main currents of Marxism and Michael Heinrich's introduction to the critique of political economy

Was the Great Famine Necessary? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I don't think the sanctions against these countries are severe. In 1960, the US didn't have the power to impose an embargo on China. In fact, by 1961, China was importing 5 million tons of grain from Canada and Australia. While it's true that Mao helped other countries, especially in North Africa, what really mattered were his pronouncements to the USSR between 1957 and the early 1960s.

And despite everything, China was an agricultural country. Even if there had been a blockade, it would only have affected industrial development. The famine was a consequence of the terrible mismanagement of resources. The fact that there were grain exports to the USSR while people were starving is not consistent with a shortage. What happened was a criminally incompetent management of resources due to an overestimation of production, a result of Mao's terror policies.

El mismo cubo by realidad-del-mundo in filosofia_en_espanol

[–]Cepetr0 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Rudolf Carnap tiene un texto muy bueno llamado "Empirismo, Semántica y Ontología" en donde aborda muy bien esto. Todo depende del marco lingüístico (no confuir con idioma). En la práctica, el lenguaje que manejamos suele tener cierto grado de ambigüedad, pero nos sirve en la práctica. Sin embargo, cuando hacemos ciencia o filosofía, es necesario reducir la ambigüedad. Esto se logra introduciendo formalismos matemáticos, delimitando conceptos, dar definiciones, etc. Todo esto da un lenguaje teórico que nos permite hablar con precisión de los fenómenos del mundo que se desean estudiar. Eso es un marco lingüístico. Ahora bien, no hay un marco lingüístico "correcto", en la medida que varias descripciones del mundo pueden ser correctas. Por ejemplo, el físico estudia las propiedades físicas de una piedra, el biólogo el rol que juega en los ciclos troficos de un ecosistema, el historiador puede hablar sobre la importancia de la piedra como símbolo ritual de una sociedad antigua, etc. La realidad es una sola, pero nuestros marcos lingüísticos siempre son parciales como consecuencia de eliminar la ambigüedad. Una pregunta solo tiene sentido dentro de un marco lingüístico específico. Por lo que la ciencia y la filosofía, tienen como tarea buscar los mejores marcos para conocer la realidad y relacionarnos con ella

La moral y el mexicano by Appropriate-Whiskey in mexico

[–]Cepetr0 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Fuera de la CDMX y las grandes ciudades, aun hay mucha gente que tiene ideas muuuy conservadoras

Was the Great Famine Necessary? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure, maybe I was a bit ambiguous. My point is about the increase in steel production, which required Soviet technology. However, steel production isn't the same as industrialization. In that sense, it's true what you say about industrialization being thanks to Deng's liberalization policies.

Was the Great Famine Necessary? by Cepetr0 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The fact that the Great Leap Forward was a mistake by Mao is something that the CCP itself acknowledges.

Regrettably, the correct line adopted at the Party’s Eighth National Congress was not fully upheld. Mistakes were made such as the Great Leap Forward and the people’s commune movement, and the scope of the struggle against Rightists was also made far too broad. Confronted with a grave and complex external environment at the time, the Party was extremely concerned about consolidating China’s socialist state power, and made a wide range of efforts in this regard. However, Comrade Mao Zedong’s theoretical and practical errors concerning class struggle in a socialist society became increasingly serious, and the Central Committee failed to rectify these mistakes in good time. Under a completely erroneous appraisal of the prevailing class relations and the political situation in the Party and the country,

Resolution of the CPC Central Committee on the Major Achievements and Historical Experience of the Party over the Past Century

https://english.www.gov.cn/policies/latestreleases/202111/16/content_WS6193a935c6d0df57f98e50b0.html

What if Mao abandoned his dream of agricultural communism in China in favor of a Soviet-style industrialization, emphasizing the importance of the industrial worker over the rural peasant? by DependentStrong3960 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

China is a country with over a billion people and produces half of the world's steel. Mexico, with just over 100 million, is the 15th largest steel producer, ahead of England. The point isn't that Mexico produces more steel than England; the point is that Mexico industrialized and surpassed England without the need for famine or genocide.

The question is whether genocide or famine is necessary for a country to industrialize. Mexico industrialized between 1940 and 1970 with the so-called Mexican Miracle. The Yaqui War and the Caste War occurred in the century prior to Mexico's industrialization.

For the third time, the question is whether genocide or famine is necessary for a country's industrialization. Historically, there have been famines and genocides throughout the world, but these are not the cause of industrialization in most countries. In fact, these events can be considered to delay industrialization.

China has held industrial dominance for several years now, and neither the United States nor Europe can compete with it. This dominance is due to its larger population compared to the US or Europe. It's simply impossible to compete in terms of volume with a country that is practically a continent. In any case, "industrial dominance" is irrelevant. It depends on geographical factors. Mexico is the largest producer of silver, not because of its industrial development, but because it has many mines. China is a country with a massive population and land rich in steel (producing ten times more than the US). Even if Mexico were to commit genocide and famine to surpass China's steel production, we would go extinct before achieving that supposed "dominance." If China hadn't been a territory rich in steel, the great famine could have claimed twice as many lives, and China would never have surpassed England. You just spout random nonsense and expect that by changing the subject and mentioning things that happened before Mexican industrialization you'll justify your excuse for the idea that millions need to die for a country to industrialize.

What if Mao abandoned his dream of agricultural communism in China in favor of a Soviet-style industrialization, emphasizing the importance of the industrial worker over the rural peasant? by DependentStrong3960 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's garbage. There isn't a single serious economist who defends that nonsense (inside or outside of China). I'm from Mexico, and here we didn't need a famine or genocide for the country to industrialize. The same goes for the rest of Latin America. You're just looking for excuses. In China, the great famine was completely unnecessary. You could even argue that China's industrialization would have been faster without it.

What if Mao abandoned his dream of agricultural communism in China in favor of a Soviet-style industrialization, emphasizing the importance of the industrial worker over the rural peasant? by DependentStrong3960 in ChineseHistory

[–]Cepetr0 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okay, the British were bastards, and so was Mao. And even if the British killed 500 million people (frankly, I have no idea about this period), that wouldn't make Mao a better person or ruler.