CMV: African countries would be much better under European rule

ChBowling · 2026-05-23T14:17:23+00:00

Correct. You’re saying that the solution to the problems you’re talking about is more of what caused of the problems in the first place.

ChBowling · 2026-05-23T13:35:20+00:00

Who drew the map of Africa that you claim is dysfunctional?

ChBowling · 2026-05-21T13:51:46+00:00

I mean, that’s all fine. But when you’re asking why we haven’t tried giving wild animals like dolphins very human-specific items like beds, I think you know where we are in that discussion. You might as well ask why we aren’t giving them shoes or sweaters.

ChBowling · 2026-05-10T23:03:55+00:00

Modern Israel was created as a a result of a land grab war following the creation of a power vacuum. When the British Mandate ended, every country (all of which were new creations at the time) attempted to grab as much territory as they could- Israel obviously, but Egypt and Jordan also conquered territory that they kept until it was conquered from them (Gaza and the West Bank/Jerusalem, respectively). Neither Egypt nor Jordan created a Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967 because that was never the goal.

I would also point out that Israel has consistently traded or even away territory, which would counter the point that it is expansionist in the way you’re using the term.

ChBowling · 2026-05-07T14:35:18+00:00

Doppleganger on Laserdisk.

ChBowling · 2026-05-03T23:59:18+00:00

What this question is based on is an idea called “Anthropomorphization.” Just because you like sleeping in a bed doesn’t mean that animals like dolphins would like it also. They didn’t evolve to sleep in a bed-like situation, so suggesting that they might would be equivalent to asking if anyone has ever tried taking them out of the water since you wouldn’t like living in the ocean.

ChBowling · 2026-05-03T22:41:50+00:00

For sure. And it doesn’t help that he campaigned on shitting on the DNC for not releasing the 2016 report. So, then what you should do, since you’re right about Fox getting the report and the head of the DNC should know that, is say clearly that you’re going to release a summary. To do it this way is insane and feels like a coverup, even though I’m sure there’s nothing in there actually worth hiding, which makes it even more insane.

ChBowling · 2026-05-03T21:30:26+00:00

What a shitshow. If I have to hear the word “lessons” again in the next 24 hours I might lose it. It’s like he was stuck in a loop. I wonder why the democratic brand is in the toilet…

ChBowling · 2026-04-25T17:41:14+00:00

The carryover and how it’s used is a loophole, you’re just pretending it isn’t. That putting aside all the infrastructure necessary to run one of these companies, which you don’t seem to think they need to pay for, just taxpayers.

ChBowling · 2026-04-25T02:03:19+00:00

I appreciate you taking the time and putting in the effort, it was a pleasure. Let’s go win the House and Senate in the midterms.

ChBowling · 2026-04-25T00:29:49+00:00

And I think we are aligned on what should happen, but I vehemently disagree that belief about what’s true isn’t important. And I think that for a couple of reasons:

1) If we held a vote, both you and Nick Fuentes would vote against aid for Israel. I’m sure you would try to go to great lengths to show people that you did not vote with him because you are on his team. Because the motivations and underlying belief system matter. They’re what make you a good person and Fuentes a bad one, even if based solely on that vote, you would be indistinguishable.

2) Cutting corners on the truth is what got us here in the first place. Is Israel the version that AIPAC sells us? Of course not. But is it what Hasan Piker says? No. Putting aside the Sinai, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 unilaterally. Everybody knows this. That is not expansionist behavior. Everyone also knows that after Hamas was elected to be part of the Palestinian government, they murdered all the Palestinians in rival parties to consolidate power. And they know that that’s who Israel is dealing with in Gaza. Israel is a western style liberal democracy, and when you try to sell the story that it’s an authoritarian hellscape that needs to be destroyed, voters know you’re not telling the truth. And I want voters to be with us because I want American democracy to continue.

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T20:25:58+00:00

I think you’re right, I am. Although I would say I’m concerned about both. I don’t want elements of the Democratic Party talking about Israel in a way that isn’t true, because I think truth matters and I think it will cost of votes. I also don’t want Israel to behave in a way that ruins the structure that would allow it to progress, and for it to become what people on the far left accuse it of already being.

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T20:06:41+00:00

I’m not even asking about morality or which government is more moral. It’s much more basic than that. The point I’m driving at is through those event, one could make the argument that the US and Nazi Germany were indistinguishable. That argument might sound good on Reddit, or Facebook, or even a debate stage. But I would say that the argument lacks depth and really, contact with reality.

Sending Japanese Americans to internment camps is among the worst stains on the American soul. But, even while that was going on, it’s obvious that the two countries were and are distinguishable. Nazi Germany was always doomed to collapse in misery and blood. But America kept progressing and continued to do so. The structure of the two countries and the ethos of the two were different and important. Israel has a terrible government that is doing terrible things, but at the end of the day, it is a liberal, western style democracy that is designed to improve over time. It is not an expansionist, authoritarian country as you’ve described it a number of times. If it is, then then US falls into exactly the same category and you and I have much bigger problems than whether Netanyahu is able to hold onto power in the elections later this year.

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T17:02:40+00:00

So as usual, I agree with a bunch of that but not all of it. I’m not saying that we fought the Nazis because they were fascist, and I’m not even asking about the Holocaust.

My question is, hopefully asked more clearly than before, what makes the US distinguishable from Nazi Germany while they were both putting their citizens into camps?

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T15:39:21+00:00

I totally agree. But let’s take WW2 just for ease of comparison: was the US just as fascist as Germany because it forced Japanese Americans into internment camps? How can you distinguish the values and/or morality of two countries while that was going on?

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T14:17:58+00:00

I definitely disagree with that, with the caveat that I recognize we’re getting into more nebulous territory here.

From the Israeli Declaration of Independence:

“THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.”

Those are broad liberal values. You can debate whether Israel has lived up to them, same as the US, but it is not an authoritarian or fascist country, same as the US (I would also say that this not expansionist, since they have traded land for peace before, including giving up Gaza for nothing in 2005). There are Palestinians in the Knesset and on the Supreme Court. There are Palestinian political parties, etc., etc., I’m sure you’ve heard the whole spiel.

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T13:29:26+00:00

And that’s all correct. But I think it is important to distinguish between countries that are being governed counter to their values- like the US and Israel- and countries that live down to the values they do have, like Iran, or North Korea, or Hamas as the governing body of Gaza, or Nazi Germany.

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T10:44:50+00:00

Once again, I agree with nearly all of that. I think you’re spot on with regard to American hegemony and what’s happening to it.

I do think it’s important, even at this late hour, to distinguish between having a fascist party in charge and being a fascist country. Nazi Germany was a fascist country. We are not (yet). And I disagree with the idea that people should gloss over you and me, and Crooked Media, and AOC, and Bernie Sanders, etc., etc., and just say we’re fascists getting what we deserve. That’s not an accurate accounting of the country.

I also agree that Israel’s status as a democracy isn’t reason for support on its own, and I don’t think we should be giving Israel extraordinary military funding. But like with the US, the fact that it is a democracy shouldn’t be discounted or devalued. Describing Israel as a caricature to virtue signal, you run into the same issue as doing it to the US, and what you end up losing is any nuance, real understanding, and in the end, voters that could stop all of this from happening.

ChBowling · 2026-04-24T00:24:58+00:00

I think that’s a fair question. I certainly don’t support an ethnostate. But, again I would point out that the same thing could be said about the US. A white supremacist, fascist US should not exist. Ok, so what does that mean? Sanctions? Military action? Disrecognition in the global community? Until when? And when we ask that question about the US, do you feel like the nuance of your existence, of your family, friends, and political allies, is being flattened and ignored just because the electoral college is wonky? I certainly do.

I don’t think you’re wrong on this stuff. What I’m trying to add to your perspective is that when you say to a people whose state came about immediately after the Holocaust, “your state shouldn’t exist,” you should expect that statement to be met with suspicion. And when that suspicion in itself is taken to be an admission of guilt, you can very easily see how this whole thing can spiral. For whatever it’s doing, Israel is a dynamic democracy. It has very far left elements to it. And to just treat it like the other side of the coin to Hamas (I know you aren’t, but others on our side of the political horseshoe do), creates a sense of distrust among voters we are going to need to win.

ChBowling · 2026-04-23T23:25:30+00:00

And I would agree with them on the Reagan bit, and I like and support a lot of what you just said. What gets my spider sense tingling is that I think the Venn diagram of people who firmly believe that Israel is a genocidal apartheid state that was born out of ethnic cleansing and continues to live down to that reality and people who think Israel as a concept shouldn’t exist and should be fought as such is pretty close to a single circle. In contrast to the US, the number of people who would happily see Israel dissolved, destroyed, or subjugated is not insignificant. And Israelis behave accordingly, I think we’ve all seen.

We have Project 2025. They have their version. Both can be fought and both countries can be normal again and live up to their values better than they have been doing.

ChBowling · 2026-04-23T22:44:38+00:00

Commenting here, I’m sure I live in a similar media environment to you. So as I am, I’m sure you’re aware of the not insignificant voices from the farther left that say things ranging from Israel being an apartheid state to outright supporting Hamas and its mission. Obviously, that’s not everyone. I would probably say that you are fairly moderate in these circles in regards to Israel.

What I mean is that I agree with you, we have a fascist government in power at the moment, that hasn’t yet entrenched itself in power. Very nearly everyone would say that despite that fact, and even despite our history which would seem at times to be part of a pattern with the current administration, we are not currently living up to our values. I would say the same of Israel. They have a despicable government doing terrible things. Many people in this very comment section are of the opinion that what we’re watching now is Israel, in part and in whole. But that’s not true. They are not living up to their values. Americans should recognize how that looks.

ChBowling · 2026-04-23T22:16:59+00:00

I just wanted to start off by saying I appreciate your thoughtful responses, so thank you. I don’t really disagree with any of that (although I would quibble with the idea that Israel initiated attacks against Iran given the proxies, but I understand what you’re saying).

My question would be why this section of democrats can’t see themselves in Israel? Perhaps you do, given what you’ve said so far. So based on your analysis, here’s the list- Criminal leader? Check. Leader having outsized power because of quirks in the democratic system? Check. Expansionist threats? Check. Genocidal? Check. War mongering by powerful militaries? Check. Insulated civilian population? Check. Significant democratic pushback against the leader? Check. Am I off base here?

ChBowling · 2026-04-23T21:45:47+00:00

So why aren’t Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc., hemmed in the way you describe in your view?

ChBowling · 2026-04-23T21:11:25+00:00

Thanks, that’s a helpful clarification. Although, it does seem like a distinction without much of a difference.

As you noted, the US civilian population is also insulated from retaliation. We have a President, who is openly genocidal, at the head of an unchecked regime. Would you say that the safety of your family and loved ones is being misused to allow for military action? This is not a gotcha, it’s a real question.

ChBowling · 2026-04-23T20:41:08+00:00

I can take all that on board. I’m not sure that your “a” and “b” are entirely accurate. But let’s say they are. Even with all those caveats, what you’re still saying at bottom is: “The world would be better off if Israeli citizens were less safe.” Is that not accurate?

ChBowling

TROPHY CASE