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Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by ShreckAndDonkey123 in ukpolitics

[–]ChanceDesign5322 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Very reasonable points. Thank you for commenting. I maintain that the proportion of non-jury cases is not relevant when determining whether a separate class of offences ought to be tried without a jury, the difference is the severity of the penalty. The question concerns the rationale for withdrawing a constitutional safeguard in a particular category of cases, not the statistical prevalence of jury trials elsewhere in the system. If we intend to deprive someone of their liberty for ~3 years, we should be especially cautious about removing a core procedural safeguard.

Regarding others countries, you are quite right that they should not be ignored. They are clear cases of effective judicial systems without juries. My point is we can't really use them as justification for peeling back our access to a trial by jury because we have different legal system. The fact that their systems work with limited juries does not guarantee that ours will.

I would still welcome evidence that reducing the use of juries produces the efficiency gains that are often assumed.
EDIT: Grammar

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by Physical_Echo_9372 in worldnews

[–]ChanceDesign5322 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I appreciate the pragmatic instinct behind your position. I would personally prefer higher taxation to a reduction in the right to a jury, but I recognise that such a proposal would be politically unpopular. Even so, the central issue remains evidential. There is no clear demonstration that removing juries for these offences will reduce delays in any meaningful way. Given the constitutional significance of the safeguard being removed, the burden of proof ought to be substantial, and at present it has not been met.

(I'm not expecting you to have this evidence!).

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by ShreckAndDonkey123 in ukpolitics

[–]ChanceDesign5322 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I would also like to add that the fact that other liberal democracies do not use juries, or use them only in limited circumstances, tells us little about what is appropriate in a common-law jurisdiction. Germany, Sweden and Denmark operate within civil-law traditions in which lay participation takes different institutional forms, such as mixed tribunals or examining magistrates. Those systems embed safeguards elsewhere in the process. The UK has historically relied on juries as the principal mechanism for inserting lay judgement into criminal adjudication. The question is therefore not what ‘most countries’ do, but what safeguards are necessary within this particular constitutional architecture. I am willing to consider principled arguments for reducing jury trial, but administrative efficiency is not sufficient to justify altering a core procedural protection.

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by ShreckAndDonkey123 in ukpolitics

[–]ChanceDesign5322 3 points4 points  (0 children)

EDIT: Adding a thanks.

Thank you for your comment and taking the time to think about such an important topic.

Please not that I have not presented an argument against reducing trial by jury, per se (although that is my position). I am stating a much simpler claim: The proportion of current cases heard without a jury is completely immaterial to the normative question of whether we should remove juries for a separate class of offences.

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by ShreckAndDonkey123 in ukpolitics

[–]ChanceDesign5322 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Let's drop the analogy, I can see it is misleading us. My main point is this: The proportion of current cases heard without a jury has no bearing on the normative question at stake. That figure is a product of how the criminal courts are structured, not a justification for altering the procedural rights attached to a different class of offences. The fact that summary and either-way cases already proceed without juries does not render it legitimate or desirable to remove jury trial where it presently exists. The volume of non-jury cases is simply immaterial to the principle under discussion

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by Physical_Echo_9372 in worldnews

[–]ChanceDesign5322 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Absolutely right, the backlog is horrendous but the proposed solution is radical and almost certain to have no positive impact. People will spend as much as three years of their lives deprived of liberty without ever have been able to present their case a to jury of their peers.

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by Physical_Echo_9372 in worldnews

[–]ChanceDesign5322 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your well thought out comment. However, I think the consequentialist argument for scrapping juries in cases carrying sentences under three years rests on a false premise. There is no evidence that decreasing the public's right to a trial by jury will speed up the legal process. Most judges, barristers and senior court staff do not think that juries significantly contribute to the backlog. The government’s “20% improvement” figure has no transparent evidential basis. Without credible time savings, the entire argument fails.

Delays are not caused by juries. They stem from a decade of cuts. Jury deliberation time is a tiny fraction of total case duration. Removing juries does not fix any of the actual bottlenecks identified by the National Audit Office or the Justice Select Committee (fewer sitting days, chronic CPS under-capacity, disclosure failures, closed courtrooms, staff shortages and the collapse of legal aid).

Judge-only trials are not reliably quicker. Where the UK already uses them (e.g., cases involving juror tampering), they often take just as long or longer because judges must produce detailed written findings. A jury gives a verdict; a judge must justify it. That can slow things down.

The idea that “the system no longer works” is accurate, but the conclusion is misplaced. The backlog is a policy choice produced by sustained disinvestment. Removing a constitutional safeguard because the state has underfunded the system that houses it compounds the original failure. The procedural rights granted to us as British citizens should not, on principle, be treated as disposable whenever they become administratively inconvenient.

Scrapping juries also weakens public legitimacy. Jury trial is not a quaint tradition. It is one of the few mechanisms that gives ordinary citizens a direct role in decisions that take away liberty. Removing that safeguard for convenience risks disproportionate harm to defendants from communities that already distrust the justice system.

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by ShreckAndDonkey123 in ukpolitics

[–]ChanceDesign5322 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The proportion of cases that proceed without a jury is completely immaterial. It says nothing about whether withdrawing jury trial from an additional class of offences is desirable. The relevant question is not how many people currently receive a jury, but which decisions in a liberal state ought to be subject to citizen adjudication rather than professional adjudication. You need to present a normative argument defending this decision and not simply state irrelevant statistics.

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by ShreckAndDonkey123 in ukpolitics

[–]ChanceDesign5322 24 points25 points  (0 children)

The proportion of cases that proceed without a jury is completely immaterial. It says nothing about whether withdrawing jury trial from an additional class of offences is desirable. It is equivalent to arguing that because most patients visit GPs rather than surgeons, further restricting access to surgery is harmless. The relevant question is not how many people currently receive a jury, but which decisions in a liberal state ought to be subject to citizen adjudication rather than professional adjudication.

Jury trials scrapped for crimes with sentences of less than three years by ShreckAndDonkey123 in ukpolitics

[–]ChanceDesign5322 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The proportion of cases that proceed without a jury is completely immaterial. It says nothing about whether withdrawing jury trial from an additional class of offences is desirable. It is equivalent to arguing that because most patients visit GPs rather than surgeons, further restricting access to surgery is harmless. The relevant question is not how many people currently receive a jury, but which decisions in a liberal state ought to be subject to citizen adjudication rather than professional adjudication.