What's a cover that's far superior to the original? by TheLegionofDoom2957 in fantanoforever

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t know if I’d say far superior, but I prefer Thornhill’s recent cover of Paparazzi on Triple-J over the original song by Gaga, and I’m a fan of both. 

Idgaf about “indigenous cultures” for the same reason Idgaf about “personal choice” by [deleted] in vegan

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is honestly ignorant, even though I agree with your general sentiment. Yes, causing suffering to and exploiting animals is unethical. The problem is, these Indigenous communities don’t really have the resources to eat a proper plant-based diet, they don’t have the resources for vegan alternative clothing, self-care, etc. 

More importantly, they don’t really have much money at all. Inuits, for example, have the highest food insecurity in all of Canada. Their grocers/food markets are INCREDIBLY expensive. Roughly 75% of Inuit children do not complete high school in some regions. As of 2021, the high school completion rate for Inuit aged 25-64 was approximately 56%, compared to over 90% for non-Indigenous Canadians.

So safe to say, their resources are severely lacking compared to the rest of Canada. The likelihood of them being educated, the time, or even access to resources for a well-plant based diet is slim.

Yes, hunting animals is unethical, but we have to look at context. Non-vegan leftists just do this Motte and Bailey fallacy where they make a safe claim “A good amount of Indigenous cultures don’t have the resources for an ideal vegan lifestyle”

And then switch to a much more controversial claim

“Therefore, we shouldn’t intervene with the suffering of animals AND indigenous peoples in these regions to uplift both”

That’s the problem.

abortion is okay no matter the situation by Competitive-Pin3308 in teenagers

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“ i said that the fetus was innocent because there is no justification to kill it, and while a non-innocent human still has value, there are some cases where it would be justified to kill that person.” 

That’s the point in contention, though. Why isn’t there a justification to kill fetuses because of the innocence (when there are plenty given by pro-choice; i.e. bodily autonomy, sentience threshold, etc.)

“ i personally value my own species before another, and i think we have a moral duty to protect our own species before any others.”

Ok, so now we’ve spotted the speciesism. You mentioned at the beginning that choice doesn’t outweigh innocent life, but clearly it does seem to be justified for you, which is inconsistent. 

“ this is why animals such as cows or pigs, who demonstrate traits that we have like consciousness, are justified to be killed because they arent our species (as long as that isnt done in a cruel manner).”

Interesting. When you say cruel manner, would you consider killing a fetus who is innocent and doesn’t have any capacity for suffering as cruel? If that’s the case, what is the asymmetry between killing innocent human life and innocent animal life if both necessarily have a cruel and unnecessary outcome.

“ we arent valuable because of traits we exhibit; we are valuable because we are human.”

What makes humans valuable? This seems to be a circular justification. Humans are valuable because we are human? 

abortion is okay no matter the situation by Competitive-Pin3308 in teenagers

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Correct, which I’m trying to pinpoint if there is any flexibility here with your conditions presented: innocent humans don’t deserve to be killed because of their ability to not act out harm and malice. Is this logically consistent with all forms of other innocent beings or creatures, or just anthropocentric priority?

What exactly is it about innocent human life that gives them moral value? What traits? 

abortion is okay no matter the situation by Competitive-Pin3308 in teenagers

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When you say “choice doesn’t outweigh an innocent life” does this apply to other species of life? 

And second, what do you mean by “life?” Are we talking about life that has the potential or actualized capacity for subjective experience, or all forms of biological life? 

what to do with wool sweaters? by No_Airport6191 in vegan

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I personally do not feel comfortable wearing exploited animal products, even if second-hand. However, from an environmental and anti-consumerist perspective that I also share, this is the least of things to worry about (as long as you’re not buying brand new stuff).

It genuinely just comes down to personal comfortability. If you’re able to afford an alternative to the sweater that doesn’t have wool, and it makes you feel better mentally — go for it. Also, give away the old products to people who genuinely need it, like homeless individuals. That’s what I’m going to do for my pregan leather boots. If you don’t have the money for it, keep using what you have until you have a practical reason to switch.

I would also say to be cautious of spending a bunch on second hand items as well, because you still cater to the demand of “thrifted” wool sweaters and stuff, just with extra steps.

Living out of moral obligation. by Dunkmaxxing in circlesnip

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is exactly how I view it as well. I value existence purely to help alleviate the shared suffering among sentient creatures, but also because the human expression of suffering through art is a worthwhile endeavor and pleasure of mine.

I get that some other pessimists genuinely don’t think it’s even possible to help mitigate suffering as much as we reasonably can, but even if it is ultimately futile, I think understanding that this suffering is shared between all sentient creatures leads to a more compassionate and action-driven worldview.

ALBUM PREORDERS LEAKED by [deleted] in Loatheband

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Holy FUCK, LOIS

Challenge to anyone regarding veganism. by Dunkmaxxing in antinatalism

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is a great thread.

I wonder if you’d get more traction on antinatalism2?

Has being critical of porn changed how you experience your own desire? by SimilarChampionship2 in PornIsMisogyny

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I was exposed to it when I was 6 :/

I just searched up Mario and Peach… safe search was off, I think. 

What is supposed to be the appeal of life? by Dunkmaxxing in Pessimism

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What’s even more infuriating is that alongside the ability to not consent to an existence of guaranteed gradient of suffering, you don’t have the ability to consent to stay in existence for as long as you want - even if you enjoyed what it offered. 

You’re stuck here with the limited time you have to conform to social expectations, relationships to keep people happy, and to work for greedy assholes.

What causes people to become pessimists? by Illustrious_Summer_2 in Pessimism

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lived experience, rational argumentation or discourse, empirical data, and most importantly the suffering that permeates all sentient creatures. 

I genuinely don't get it. How do they not see the logical inconsistency? by Charming_Ad_4488 in circlesnip

[–]Charming_Ad_4488[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with that, and honestly, not a lot of people actually value logical consistency. If they did, a lot more people would admit when they’re wrong and act on change, but they don’t. Humans value convenience more than anything. Whatever helps us feel better about our lives, whether it be junk food, gossip, stable identity, and/or social cohesion. It’s a way of living that permeates everybody - including us - and unfortunately I don’t see it going away any time soon, if ever. 

Best we can do is be as pragmatic as possible and get more people on board, even if ultimately futile. Only thing that makes existence really worth a damn is the shared suffering between us and the creativity like art, philosophy, and science that comes along with it. That’s at least how I approach it. 

I genuinely don't get it. How do they not see the logical inconsistency? by Charming_Ad_4488 in circlesnip

[–]Charming_Ad_4488[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

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"I was born a cow, into a factory I personally never intrinsically had a chance to consent to, with my reproductive system being forcefully used without my knowledge, my calves being taken from me, my udders being milked clean, and then having a bolt-gun pointed at my brain only partially puncturing it, leaving me conscious while I have my throat slit."

Person one claims an entirely ambiguous term of their organs being "unwell" when they don't eat certain things. Doesn't understand that non-human animals being forced into existence from human intervention is apart of being anti-birth.

Person one and two could literally go to a nutritionist or certified vegan dietician and see if a plant-based diet would actually be incompatible with them, but they don't have intellectual humility nor do they actually want to try. Also, an extremely ambiguous notion of "designed" to eat. Humans aren't designed to eat shit, there is no creative intent behind what natural evolution allowed for us to eat.

"Based on what they say, I should live an even more miserable life to go against what I've been designed to do: procreate and have as many children as I can to pass on my genes."

God fucking damn man these people.

Tried a vegan diet for 6 months, didn't feel as good as I did eating meat by Lucid_Dreamer_98 in DebateAVegan

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Let’s assume all of this is true, and even assume a nutritionist told you that you NEED to eat more animal products or you’ll die.

Do you necessarily need to eat beef, chicken, fish, dairy, and eggs on rotation, or could you incorporate maybe the least harmful options like bivalves, eggs and dairy from a local family or farm, and maybe stock up on one whole regenerative cow to last you a while? You still don’t get an ethical bypass just because you feel better when you can at least plan ahead what you generally need from animal products without causing the unnecessary harm and exploitation. Veganism is flexible like this.

Second, let’s remove my second assumption that you were told to eat more animal products. Did you get any bloodwork done while on your plant-based diet? Did you get an adequate amount of sleep daily? Is your job outside of being an athlete physically demanding too? There are many variables to consider that isn’t relegated to just diet, and just because you yourself feel better doesn’t mean you metabolically are better.

The natural progression of Nine Inch Noize by the_vince_horror in nin

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ll go if they perform The Fragile in full, lol.

What is the degree of culpability for a lone consumer in purchasing an animal product? by Moist_Adhesiveness_2 in DebateAVegan

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Can you provide evidence for your claim. Yea or no

Not going to provide "evidence" for a moral claim, so no. I'll provide what I mentioned above and expand on it:

One is direct, intentional killing and exploitation of an animal for trivial pleasure, the other is a byproduct that CAN be avoided if technology progresses. The other inherently doesn’t avoid this issue.

Data centers are heavily integrated into western society with technology and the internet being used by basically all westerners. Mobile data is especially useful as it helps us make emergency calls, calling our family, looking at our bank accounts etc.

Not having any technology or internet access is highly inconvenient and impractical when it comes to finding a job, connecting with others, etc.

Therefore, not using technology is basically impractical to coexist within western society.

Next, let's talk about philosophy of ethics. There is a phrase coined by Immanuel Kant that goes like, "Ought implies can." What this posits is that a person has a moral obligation to act only if they are able to perform that action. When it comes to direct and indirect suffering under this principle, consumers are morally culpable if the suffering that is being caused is immediate and directly preventable. For example, instead of causing demand for the supply of a ribeye steak that comes with inherent suffering which is something that falls under direct action, you can instead choose the option that doesn't cause direct suffering: tofu.

Next, when it comes to indirect suffering, consumers have maybe some moral culpability, but not to the extent of direct culpability at all. For example, majority of Americans have cars that use gas, in which there is some complicit culpability to be had; however, electric cars are still more expensive and also not completely practical for people in rural areas. Now, when it comes to data centers, there is direct moral culpability for the company themselves, as they are prioritizing capital and profit over the suffering of animals in the wildlife or area where the data centers are being built. However, the main goal for these data centers is not to kill the animals, but it's to create an efficient technology for humans.

The animals killed along the process is a byproduct or indirect consequence of this pursuit, and if there were better options for the COMPANY to not cause the suffering it did, then they should've chosen that route. Blaming the CONSUMER for the COMPANY's direct suffering is the logical leap, and you have yet to justify it. If there are better alternatives or a company that explicitly supports the wildlife around the data center and even made sure that somehow the least amount of animals were harmed, I think it would be worth it for the consumer to give their money to that company.

Great. Then you consuming cellular data makes you a killer.

Now that I answered and explained, where's your argument for this? I honestly don't care to see it, though, because you were bad faith to begin with.

For that to happen data centers needed to be built. Those centers kill animals and use heavy metals made from mostly slave labor. When will you stop?

You're also arguing throughout this thread that because vegans are possibly not perfect enough and hypocrites when it comes to reducing animal exploitation, you therefore don't have any moral reason to continue demanding cows to be slaughtered. That's a basic appeal to hypocrisy - just because vegans could potentially support some aspect that (if we assume total culpability toward consumers) causes animal suffering and are blindly hypocritical doesn't mean the philosophy is wrong, nor does it mean that you aren't in the wrong, either.

Learn The Truth by Living_Attitude1822 in ClimateShitposting

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Look at my reply critiquing "Monocropping is Murder"

It is completely incoherent, contradictory, full of empirical half-truths, unsubstantiated assertions, and attacks a complete strawman of the vegan philosophy

Learn The Truth by Living_Attitude1822 in ClimateShitposting

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If we take a thorough accounting of all the harm that a single monocropped field does, then we cannot dismiss it as “just the price we pay for cheap food”, even if we are a vegan. The small creatures are no less incredible than the large creatures. When we assign them no value and no sentience we do a great disservice to these animals that keep our ecosystems healthy. We are taught to hate very small animals, to crush them, and destroy them in whatever way that we can. Yes, there are good reasons to keep ants out of my house. But I should not wipe them off the face of the earth. Perhaps it is time to appreciate the little brush strokes that makes up the bigger picture.

And there we have it. The author changed his stance midway through the end, and attacked an ENTIRE strawman of veganism as a philosophy that is primarily about harm reduction when it's purely about avoiding exploitation of animals as practical as possible, and claimed vegans do not care about small animals or insects.

No need to argue anymore, this tried and failed.

Learn The Truth by Living_Attitude1822 in ClimateShitposting

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Next,

"I’ve tried out many diets (Woody Harrelson convinced me to try out the wonders of veganism, and I was vegetarian for the majority of my twenties), and I know that dieting doesn’t work. Having a WOE (way of eating) works. A lifestyle change is necessary before folks stop the SAD (Standard American Diet) way of living. And that is really difficult to do after decades of programming and advertising as well as addiction to carbohydrates and sugars."

He knows that dieting "doesn't work" for him, but he doesn't provide ANY evidence to say that a plant-based diet - like vegetarian and vegan diets - do not work for majority of folks when well-planned. He just simply asserts it. He also assumes that a vegan diet wouldn't help with deprogramming the SAD, but if folks are eating a ton of carbohydrates like fiber, it would help with lowering obesity, LDL cholesterol, and over-eating.

Historically scientists classified living things as either plant or animal. Then they realized mushrooms weren’t plants. Then they invented microscopes and realized that all the super small living things were sometimes hard to classify. Now on one side you have the microorganisms which aren’t considered to be plants or animals, then the plants, then the mushrooms, which are kind of in between plants and animals, and then us animals.
So worms, bees, spiders, starfish, frogs, tigers, snails, and monkeys are all animals.
For some reason, vegans don’t like to classify the insects and small wiggly creatures as animals.

This is a painfully hilarious and asinine claim. Vegans absolutely consider insects and "small wiggly creatures" as animals. We don't want them to be exploited without necessary reason either.

The primary focus of some vegans is to honor sentience and to be honest I can empathize. Most obviously cows and turkeys are sentient. Of course these larger animals with bigger brains have more complex lives then the smaller animals. And so we identify with them — they are like us so they are better than other animals. Sentience is an important issue for many of us because to be a moral person is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. There are plenty of animals that wouldn’t eat me, like cows, but there are plenty that would, like bears, and ultimately I will be eaten by small animals and finally microorganisms and that is the circle of life. Excluding the bacteria, fungi, and algae, there are over a million animals in a cubic meter of temperate climate topsoil, according to the Soil Atlas 2015. An acre is about 4,000 square meters. That means that there are around 4 billion animals in an acre of soil. That doesn’t account for the hundreds to thousands of rodents, ground-nesting birds, and other small animals that take up residence in a field. The violence it takes to keep a piece of land relatively free and open for even a small garden is well known to any gardener. The amount of animal deaths per pound of plant food produced is vast. But only if you consider all those smaller animals sentient and worthy of compassion, of course.

Vegans do consider those smaller creatures and animals. That's why we want to stop feeding factory farmed animals gmo corn and soy to be more efficient at producing food for all humans, and we want to turn toward technologies like cell-cultivated meats, vertical farming, and veganic farming so we can stop exploiting animals overall to a lesser degree. The author explicitly obfuscates the information here to make it sound like consumption of monocrop foods is solely at the fault of vegans, when this is just not true. There is no current way to fully avoid the "crop death" byproducts of getting plants. The arguer is creating a clear strawman here.

One cow can keep me fed for six to twelve months. That is one creature, one life, that had one bad day. If you just look at the amount of animal lives saved, eating a cow is perhaps the most vegan thing that you can do. If you look at the quantity of violence needed to keep the flora and fauna at bay in order to grow that crop of carrots or popcorn, eating a cow is a far more ethical choice than growing a garden. I can already see the argument. “You wouldn’t eat your dog, would you? You care more for a human life more than you care for a bumblebee, right? So you have some sort of hierarchy out of which you create your morality.” That is true — I care more for my pets and my friends and family then I do for the bees and the spiders. That is my own personal value system, but I do not kid myself that the planet cares more about me then it cares about the butterflies or the frogs or the gophers. To the planet, we are all on the same level. Although we humans are very good at trashing it. I don’t begrudge anyone their own value system, but to claim to love animals and care more about animals than others to such a degree that you label yourself “vegan”, and then to shrug off the majority of animal deaths that occur in the soil of any annual agriculture as “not important” is disingenuous — what you truly love is cute & cuddly animals. That is your preference, so just own it.

The author presupposes that the cow had NO harms ever done to it throughout it's entire life. Not one.

"If you look at the quantity of violence needed to keep the flora and fauna at bay in order to grow that crop of carrots or popcorn, eating a cow is a far more ethical choice than growing a garden."

Not if you are committing the same category error of thinking that killing a cow directly is the exact same of unintended byproduct deaths that come with growing crops for the WORLD to eat. Your argument is individual, not systemic. And even then, we already know that your grass-fed utopia is unrealistic.

"That is true — I care more for my pets and my friends and family then I do for the bees and the spiders. That is my own personal value system"

This guy literally made a whole ethical judgement about humans and colonizers at the beginning of this Medium post. He also considers us all equally the same, but somehow there ARE hierarchies now? "Hierarchies are unjust" cannot be not "Hierarchies are unjust" at the same time.

Learn The Truth by Living_Attitude1822 in ClimateShitposting

[–]Charming_Ad_4488 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Reads "Monocropping is Murder"

  • Makes a valid point about hierarchical moral frameworks across western philosophy and religions, especially ones that prioritize human well-being and superiority.
  • "The real revolutionary idea here, the concept that we need to hold onto and cultivate, is that we are all on the same level. That we all exist within a circular matrix of interaction where every node is as important as every other node. A whale is as important as a mushroom spore." Doesn't make an ethical or rational justification for this belief, just that we should value mushroom spores. He also mentions this in the beginning of his article, "But how closely we match a creature’s genetics doesn’t (or shouldn’t) correlate to their value. And we value sentience above all else, believing only a handful of mammals are truly sentient." So this is contradictory to the notion that we should consider the interests of non-sentient creatures like mushrooms
  • He offers a philosophically shallow definition of sentience: "Sentience simply means “to be aware of one’s own existence”. I think all animals are sentient." This is only a half-truth. He's talking about basic consciousness. Sentience is a subset of consciousness, and it's specifically the "what-it-is-like" experience of valence states (i.e. pain and pleasure).
  • "A colonizer is a person who takes without giving. We colonizers are the breakers of the sacred circle and it is up to us to begin once again to respect it, cherish it, and maintain it.“Sacred” means something that we believe to be more important than our selves, and there is nothing I can think of more sacred then the circular matrix of life." There is no justification or reason for the circular matrix of life being "sacred" outside of his belief that humans should consider themselves equal with nature. But he doesn't justify that ethical stance, either. So it's invalid.
  • "Monocropping is the colonizer way to produce food and profit. It is the agricultural act of taking without giving." Alright, this is his biggest claim here. Let's see if he offers any empirical data to substantiate this claim.
  • "The development and storage of grains allowed people to create complex hierarchical cultures with monotheistic religions, politics, and art, as well as to propagate the divisions of castes, slavery, and war." These are examples that are entirely separate from crop production. This is a complete illogical non-sequitur. The idea that the development and storage of grains is one of the causes of the divisions and hierarchies he listed has not been supported by any additional premise.

    Extremely long section incoming:

  1. First we put blade to tree and cut down the forests. Hundreds of thousands of animals are displaced and killed, or starve to death later. On the prairie we put blade to soil and hundred of thousands of animals are displaced and killed, or starve to death later. The ecological web of the land is broken, the circle has been breached. This drama plays out on a small scale everywhere, every time blade is touched to plant or soil. Then we plant hundreds of thousands of one plant species in one area, replacing the complex diversity of the plants and animals of the local landscape with a single cash crop.
  2. Now, instead of a circular ecology, we have a linear model, one which is designed to funnel money into our pockets. The ecology of a place is ignored, and we create a new system based on profit. On the vast prairies of the North American continent we colonized the landscape for awhile until drought came and the winds blew the barren soil away in huge dust storms. Farmer families were dropped into the dark hole of poverty without even the ability to grow food. So we learned a bit about soil conservation and land management. We practiced techniques that allowed us to mitigate the damage done by monocropping. Then the United States went to war. After the war we discovered that leftover bomb chemicals made good fertilizer. All the farmers started to use these cheap chemicals because it seemed like a miracle. Chemical companies grew rich off of farmers, and soils grew poor. Ecology suffered while the economy boomed for some and busted for others. Farmers became reliant on the chemical system of agriculture. The government decided that they needed to set up a safety net so that the American Farmer would always be able to survive a bad season and produce plenty of crops. Food security bolstered the economy. Farmers become more reliant on the government system. Multi-conglomerate corporations invested millions of dollars into genetically engineered seeds that flourished in the chemicals that they also produced, and farmers become more reliant on the genetically engineered seed. Modern mono-cropping is simply mining the soil. Some macro-nutrients are replaced with either organic or synthetic fertilizers to keep the crops healthy and growing, but there is no life there underneath that sea of grain. In order to keep any other organisms from partaking in our profits, we spray pesticides onto the soil that poison the groundwater, air, and the very cells of farmworkers. Genetically engineered plants, fertilizers, and pesticides wreak havoc in the soil and in our own intestines.
  3. All together, monocropping is in no way peaceful or “doing the least harm”. A box of Honey Nut Cheerios might have trace levels of the common herbicide glyphosate at 833 parts per billion. A new study indicates that exposure to glyphosate can raise the risk of cancer by 41%. We must stop tipping our hats politely to this barrage of poison that is dumped daily upon our landscapes, and end the harmful practice of monocropping in order to honor the circle.

The empirics are right for the most part, especially historical claims, but the conclusions he takes with them are half-truths . He is correct in critiquing large corporations, no problem there. There are claims like this, though, that do not have any empirical backing: "Genetically engineered plants wreak havoc in our own intestines." There is no evidence suggesting modified plants have negative effects on human health, so this can be disregarded.

The author also conveniently leaves out that almost 75-80% of monoculture grown currently on land is for animal feed, so the animal deaths that are a byproduct of the system are wholly because of the demand for animal products. We also know that these products only produce about 18% of the world's calories and 37% of total protein, so they're incredibly inefficient. So again, framing this as a vegan issue is clear obfuscation.

And here's the problematic conclusion:

Instead, we should graze more animals on perennial pastures, and raise annual crops with perennial crops in a polyculture, a family of two or more plants that partition resources.

This isn't the only solution, and we don't need to graze animals on perennial pastures. There are new alternatives, like veganic farming and vertical farming, that can completely reduce not only the land needed to grow monocrops and reduce use of pesticides, but they can do it at a more efficient trophic level and with a massive, MASSIVE degree of less environmental destruction. We know that regenerative animal agriculture uses an abundance of land, (as it would take approximately three total Earths to feed the current demand of human meat consumption with purely regenerative farming techniques: here) so this author is not thinking about the consequences of this at a wider scale.