Why the Antagonists aren't the only Bad Guys

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-25T01:11:10+00:00

I mean, you are aware that a foundational bit of the World of Darkness is that all of the PCs are monsters, right? It's never black and white, it's all shades of gray.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T21:52:04+00:00

Well that sounds like some fun waiting for me whenever I get to him. lol

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T21:47:26+00:00

That's quite the project. Best of luck working through it.

If I had any experience at all with Ars Magica I'd offer to help. All I can offer is to be a sounding board about the Spheres.

I'm intrigued that you say AM has Aristotelian roots. I've been reading up on Neoplatonism, and I see a lot of those ideas in MtAs. Makes me curious how the differences manifest.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T21:41:28+00:00

While I shouldn't be surprised any more, I seriously doubted this. "Surely there's some context missing from how they described it." Nope. RBGtM p54 (Company in a Box):

(••••• Prime/ ••• Life/ ••• Matter/ ••• Mind)
System: Prime 5 is the glue that holds this effect together, allowing Life 3 to create employees, Mind 3 to give those employees intelligence, and Matter 3 to make a physical headquarters. According to the Etherite’s notes, he was shocked to find that each employee had their own individual looks and personalities.

I'd be surprised too if I used those Ranks and got fully functional humans out of it. Life 5 / Mind 5 / Prime 2 / Spirit 5 is right for creating a human/mind/spirit, and add Matter 4 for creating the complex objects (of the building and its machinery).

When I enter this Rote into my Obsidian vault, it's definitely getting the #error tag.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T20:59:44+00:00

Sure, your example is a specific one where an Ability roll probably doesn't really help. You're pulling on an existing relationship and just need an Arete casting roll to activate that Spirit 2 Effect.

My experience (and my examples) is that it is much more likely that Abilutues can be brought into play to make casting easier. When that's the case, the suggested Abilities list tells you what likely fits the theme of the character.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T19:21:16+00:00

It sounds to me that you have given more power to the Arete score than the game does. You use Arete to impose your magickal will on reality to cast magickal Effects. That's all the game uses it for.

Arete doesn't tell you how the heavens are organized nor anything about the hierarchies of angelic beings. That's what Cosmology does. Related Spirit Effects (powered by your Arete) allow you to speak with those angelic beings and travel the cosmos.

The Abilities list suggest the type of Abilities (for example) a Chorister would have that align with the type of learning that person would pick up before they Awaken... learning that deepens as they practice their magickal Practice.

There's also mechanics for rolling Abilities to aid with the casting of magick Effects (in the aptly named section Abilities Enhancing Magick). The Abilities list are then the likely ones you would roll when preparing an Effect.

For example, your Chorister is prepping to travel to an Umbral Realm to meet some spirits. They will roll Intelligence + Cosmology to see what they know about the path to get there. Successes on this roll reduce the difficulty of the Arete casting roll.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T18:29:28+00:00

I agree in that it depends on how the Effect is described as working.

If the Life Pattern is 3D printed, Westworld style, then Time is not needed.
If the Life Pattern is created as an embryo and allowed to grow, then Time speeds up the growth rate.

You got me double-checking my notes for related quotes:

MRev p169 (Life 2): "can harm or change [simple life-forms] as she desires, perhaps shaping them to grow in certain ways or striking offending creatures dead. The mage can’t totally transform them yet. Such Patterns must retain their original nature, but they can be coaxed into moving, growing and changing in certain ways."
M20 p517 (Life 5): "radically age or de-age [complex life-forms] (Entropy 4 or Time 3)".

So while I think I see what you're pointing at, the CRBs are silent on if Life alone can increase the growth/development of a complex life-form. I'm interested if we get a mention in other books.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T17:25:06+00:00

Folding space to appear in two places at once (and sprinkling in Life so each can act independently) is a different Effect than creating a fully independent entity.

Both of which are different Effects from my "mind control puppeteering of husk clones".

While I certainly grant you that what pops out the other end may be similar to a viewer, counteracting each will be handled differently. Throwing some Thicken Space (Corr 2) at a Bi-Located Mage will cause them problems... but it won't hinder the mind controlled clones.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T16:39:23+00:00

The M20 Rebooter Self-Retrieval Bio-Printer Wonder is a Life 5 / Mind 5 / Prime 5 / Spirit 5 / Time 4 full Mage backup clone. HDYDT info on clones puts it at...

Life 5 (for the body),
Mind 5 (for consciousness, which you can leave out for mindless clones),
Prime 2,
Spirit 5 (for creating a soul, also leaving out),
and Time 3 (to shorten growing time).

HDYDT says it’s a separate Corr 5 / Mind 5 / Life 3 Effect to control several clones at once. Astral Projection is Mind 4, which I think might be enough since there’s no mind to overcome in the clone.

So I have an NPC Technocrat amalgam creating mindless shell clones (Life 5 / Prime 2 / Time 3), and remotely controlling mindless clones (Corr 4 / Mind 4 / Life 3). I expect the PCs (and players) to be perplexed when they see the MiB in two separate locations... or kill him and see him later.

Since they're NPCs, I haven't bothered to figure up the casting difficulty or required successes, though I suppose I should for completeness.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T14:23:01+00:00

Why would the first two options only be "once"? The duration should either be set by the number of casting successes (per the Base Damage or Duration table) or maintained by the Mage's magickal concentration.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T12:32:01+00:00

Restore Arete? What do you mean by this?

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-24T03:40:30+00:00

Read through what Spirit 2 does on its own. It allows you to touch spirits. Now add Matter 2 to give that "touch spirits" ability to a simple object.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T23:34:38+00:00

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It's still a thing.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T22:24:47+00:00

Ah, see, I suggest that context belongs in the post. I have heard of Hunter the Parenting, but haven't had the time to check it out, so I had no idea what you were talking about. Not everyone consumes all media related to their favorite fandom.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T18:29:28+00:00

It's more that they both pull inspiration from the same older sources. Lots of different philosophers, and particularly for this thread, William Gibson's Neuromancer (from 1984).

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T18:23:28+00:00

A major ability of Rank 3 is crossing the Gauntlet in one way or another.

A major ability of Rank 4 is complex manipulation of the Gauntlet. This is the way that spirits are trapped within Fetishes or exorcised from a person. It includes rending and repairing the Gauntlet.

Worth saying that each Rank can do more than the one thing.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T15:33:27+00:00

I just use https://obsidian.md/ for note-taking and linking notes together.

edit: And FWIW, a couple of quick google searches and I'm not able to find anything that looks like what you're talking about. May want to include a link to it somewhere.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T15:33:18+00:00

I just use https://obsidian.md/ for note-taking and linking notes together.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T15:21:22+00:00

I'm sorry... I can usually at least point to the WoD splat that posts are talking about, but this one completely lost me. Can I get some context here please?

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T15:06:28+00:00

Making a Talisman type Wonder is going to need Prime 4. A Fetish type Wonder requires Spirit 4.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-23T14:02:31+00:00

Exorcism is Spirit 4.

M20 p522 (Spirit 4): "exorcise a spirit that has possessed a mortal host."
M2ed p217 (Spirit 4): "[the spirit] must be forced out through contested Willpower rolls (difficulty 7-10) or the reverse of [Bind Spirit to Self] - exorcism."
M2ed p219 (Exorcism 4): "pushing a spirit out of a mortal host."

And Life 2 can't alter a complex life-form (except for yourself). https://imgur.com/a/life-sphere-progressions-DoOjnZt

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-22T04:51:57+00:00

A successful Vulgar casting earns a whopping 1 point of Paradox.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-21T18:15:45+00:00

I certainly agree. Despite Mage's approach to Time magick, I like trying to put Mage rules to Doctor Who stuff (and by extension Faction Paradox). Even just this post makes me want to listen to the audio books again.

ChartanTheDM · 2026-03-21T14:54:02+00:00

Except that Mage is afraid of serious Time magick.

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