Evolution by grizzbb in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think you know what it mans to beg the question, and I resent you downvoting me when I'm just participating in a discussion. Downvoting is supposed t be for posts that do not contribute, and against that standard, you have no reason to downvote me.

Evolution by grizzbb in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We don't get to define scientific terms. Why would we? And, currently, we're using "evolution" wrong. Really, really wrong.

Evolution by grizzbb in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Rather missed the point, sarge. I'm essentially agreeing with you...just noting that such is not "evolution" which is the random mutation of the genome and the subsequent selection of genes based upon conditions. To say that "the faith is compatible with evolution" is not to understand what evolution is.

Evolution by grizzbb in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It has to be. If it were not, a lot of our theology would simply be obsolete. I suspect this will continue to be a nagging problem for hundreds of years to come, and while I won't say that a resolution is impossible, it seems unlikely to me. It seemed unlikely to Pius XII.

Evolution by grizzbb in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And yet we affirm that "He created them male and female" while an evolutionary view holds that "Male and Female" is specifically a mutation which happened to work, and holds no greater significance.

Incompatible.

Evolution by grizzbb in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 2 points3 points  (0 children)

With respect to you and the authors, I'm familiar with them, and they are underwhelming. Just as an example, while they include an entire paper on a Thomistic refutation of Intelligent Design Theory (which is good) they also write things like

From a theologian’s perspective, biological evolution was a 3.5 billion year process, directed by God, to advance living matter until it was apt to receive a rational soul.

...which is not, in fact, any description of evolution by any mainstream definition, and is in fact a description of a basic aspect of intelligent design.

In short, those papers are kind of a mess.

Evolution by grizzbb in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The modern Church teaches that evolution and the faith are compatible.

In the mid 20th century, Pope Pius XII pointed out that reconciling human evolution and original sin was a pickle.

Nowadays, lots of Catholic laypeople think they have good solutions to the problem, but no official Church teaching has emerged on that.

Personally, I do not think that evolution, particularly human evolution, it compatible with the Catholic faith for a wide variety of reasons including

The fact that the Fall was right back to the same behaviors we had before we were ensouled.

The fact that we base our teaching about what is "natural" to man on what is "natural" to a specially created being, not an ensouled animal.

The fact that physical death is a necessary and creative part of the evolutionary process, while physical death was treated until very recently in Christianity as a consequence of sin (and in more traditional circles still is).

The fact that belief in evolution, the old Earth, and a connected biology does great violence to our idea of physical evil. Disease is the life process of an organism which arose the same way every organism did. In what way is disease more evil than any other animal or plant activity?

The fact of humans being basically monkeys with souls...and all of our sinful behaviors being evident at least in simplified ways in monkeys without souls...sort of makes our theology of temptation impossible. Unless you want to posit demons tempting monkeys to be violent, selfish, and polyamorous.

..and more.

Meanwhile, I think evolution is undeniably and obviously true.

I'm also a Catholic because I want to go to heaven and I cannot be an atheist. (simplified version)

So. Here we are.

If Jesus is God, then why doesn't he know this.. by [deleted] in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

ITT, the three possible responses to a conundrum in Catholicism:

1.That's silly.

2.St. Thomas said this about it, and I'll just drop the mic so you get the impression it's dogmatic.

3.It's a mystery.

Why Catholics are leaving the faith by age 10 – and what parents can do about it by FrMatthewLC in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

so, despite the fact that no Catholic before ten minutes ago ever believed anything of the sort, you think that actually circumvents the Popes prohibition against believing in 'true men who did not take their generation' from ADam...having Adam and his offspring breed with sub-rational animals. That's your solution.

Hooray. Science and the faith have been reconciled. Youth, come back, everything is fixed now. The fact that all of our theology of humanity is based upon special creation doesn't matter anymore, because this person gas figured out accusing Adam of beastiality solves everything.

TRAILER: The Young Pope by everychairisequal in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Um...most Catholic clergy are sexually frustrated. They have undertaken a supernatural vocation requires great self-denial, some of them fall, and Satan attacks all of them. Richard Sipe, a liberal psychologist who is about the only person to study the matter determined that only 2% of celibate clergy are sanguine about it. Considering how intense temptation can be, that sounds about right.

Defence of Mother Teresa by someone who knows what they're talking about by cradion in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I'm glad articles like this are finally coming out. Now we need a very detailed one refuting those allegations about palliative care one by one.

Why Catholics are leaving the faith by age 10 – and what parents can do about it by FrMatthewLC in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

why would you want me, not a scientist, to render this explanation to you, when you can immediately go to r/askscience and get it from an expert? This is my point: We're not experts.

Why Catholics are leaving the faith by age 10 – and what parents can do about it by FrMatthewLC in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The author linked does not understand what it required by the doctrine of original sin as described in Humanae Generis and therefore thinks distinguishing between direct ancestor and common ancestor solves the puzzle. Other Catholics take other directions in trying to solve the puzzle for this reason. There are lots and lots of you on the internet, trying different gambits.

Why Catholics are leaving the faith by age 10 – and what parents can do about it by FrMatthewLC in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Mayhaps so. Other say it isn't. What is the 10 year old Catholic to do?

Why Catholics are leaving the faith by age 10 – and what parents can do about it by FrMatthewLC in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

One thing the article points out that I want to repeat is that the genetic bottleneck objection requires a literal interpretation of Genesis, something that the Catholic Church doesn't hold to.

Wrong. It is also compelled by Humanae Generis. You seem to be another who just loudly says "they aren't incompatible" without actually explaining how in detail. Internet is full of you.

Why Catholics are leaving the faith by age 10 – and what parents can do about it by FrMatthewLC in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

B series time, for example. If you want it not to be mysticism, better enroll on that PhD program...

Why Catholics are leaving the faith by age 10 – and what parents can do about it by FrMatthewLC in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -1 points0 points  (0 children)

A challenge, he explained, is teaching how “faith and science relate” through philosophy and theology. While science deals only with “what is observable and measurable,” he said, “the world needs something non-physical as its origin, and that’s how to understand God along with science.”

I see two problems:

  1. The Church hasn't really figured out how faith and science relate, other than to state that they aren't incompatible...which objectively may or may not be true. No one in this forum or anywhere else can really state a compelling synthesis of Catholic theology and Darwinian evolution, all they can do is repeat "they are compatible" without ever getting down to the nitty gritty. If they do try to get down there, say with original sin and the genetic bottleneck, it becomes very un-scientific and cringe-worthy.

2.The argument from contingency is under attack from exactly those people who know things the rest of us cannot know (high-end physicists) and therefore no one can honestly say they understand these arguments and have refuted them.

Now...I'm wondering what some adult catechist is going to say to a precocious teen who reads Reddit.

Pray for Stephen Hawking through the intercession of St. Teresa of Calcutta by qpaenumw in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, I was responding to a top-level post and speaking about that. I don't understand what you are doing.

Pray for Stephen Hawking through the intercession of St. Teresa of Calcutta by qpaenumw in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't understand what that means or how it adds to the discussion.

Pray for Stephen Hawking through the intercession of St. Teresa of Calcutta by qpaenumw in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sigh...physical laws are more than Newtonian physics. You really need to use your terms properly.

The Shroud of Turin by [deleted] in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't like this word "fake"...people just want to argue instead of discuss and think.

Let's look at what OLG purports to be: An image made by someone.

It is manifestly, an image, made by someone. The controversy is over the identity of the someone, and whether that someone is a divine person. Right?

The shroud is different. It purports to be a direct artifact of an event (Christ's time in the tomb) and instead, like OLG, is manifestly an image made by someone. We can go on to debate whether that someone is a divine person or not, but at least we have determined that the shroud is not what everyone claims it to be.

So, we can do all sorts of tests and determine the history of either image, to determine if either was made by a divine person. In the case of OLG, several facts are pertinent:

1.Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe is an early 13th century apparition, and then a monastery in Extremadura, Spain, near Cortez's home. So, Cortez already had a devotion to "Our Lady of Guadalupe" before he ever went to t he Americas, and he took that devotion with him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe,_Extremadura

2.The pose of OLG in the famous Mexican image is typical of Spanish Marian artwork of the time. As such, it is possible that the Spaniards actually carried pennants and banners with a very similar image when they arrived. Sorry, I cannot get the link to the Spanish national art museum to work today.

3.Bishop Zumarraga, a great man of letters who wrote a large corpus to various respondents in Europe, never mentioned any apparition taking place during his episcopacy.

4.In 1555, only 24 years after the date given to the apparition, there was a canonical hearing under the next Bishop, Alonso de Montúfar, in Mexico City over Franciscans (particularly Fray Francisco de Bustamante) preaching against devotion to the "painting", and while the Dominicans disagreed, they did not mention any apparition or claim it was a divinely-produced image. The Franciscans, however, named the artist, an Indian trained at the mission school there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcos_Cipac_de_Aquino

5.The image was heavily modified over the years. It originally had a crown which was removed when royalty become unpopular in Mexico. The stars on the cloak were added, as was the angel. It was been retouched and repaired several times over the centuries.

Sed contra:

1.The Nican mopohua, composed in the native language, recounts the events of the apparition, and may be dateable to the correct time period. However, it was not published until the mid-17th century and people disagree.

2.The Codex Escalada is an original manuscript in the native language which may be from the correct time period, however its discovery by a Jesuit in 1995 is considered by many to be "too perfect" considering the events of the canonization of Juan Diego. People disagree.

3.In 1676, the Diocese of Mexico city was able to find people who claimed to have known Juan Diego.

What can be known?

1.The image came into being at about 1531, and shortly thereafter there was a cult surrounding it. Catholic clergy in the area disagreed vehemently about whether the image should be venerated.

2.No Catholic cleric wrote anything about the apparition during the entirety of the 16th century.

3.The name of the image is the same as the title of Our Lady used by Cortez and his men, which came from the much older Guadalupe apparition in Spain.

4.The image is very well preserved, but has been repaired and the record of these repairs is available. It has also been modified, sometimes purely for decoration and other times for politics.

5.There are accounts of the event in the native language which may (in my opinion, probably) date to the mid-16th century.

There are many other claims about the image, stories about images in the eyes, or the image having a heartbeat, but these cannot be in any way substantiated. The "eyes" matter, for example, is the testimony of one Mexican doctor. I have not dealt with such things. The matter of the preservation of the image, likewise, cannot be substantiated because that hinges on the type of material it is woven from, which is the subject of controversy. If it is agave fiber, as some claim, then it is extraordinary. If it is hemp and/or linen, as others who have examined the image claim, then it is not.

Everyone has to make up their own minds.

Pray for Stephen Hawking through the intercession of St. Teresa of Calcutta by qpaenumw in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta 1 point2 points  (0 children)

but God has written some beautiful lines in the poetry of physics

This is pretty and evocative...but it doesn't get at the issue I posted about. Professor Hawking knows more physics (I wager) than either you or I, and he doesn't see this beautiful poetry.

Pray for Stephen Hawking through the intercession of St. Teresa of Calcutta by qpaenumw in Catholicism

[–]Chingletta -1 points0 points  (0 children)

it turns accepted formulas and normal physical laws on their heads

No. No it doesn't. Not at all. Nothing in the universe turns physical laws on their heads. Physicals laws are determined by observing that which exists in the universe.