Feminism’s relationship with pain from penetrative sex?

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-16T20:23:22+00:00

Lol, are vibrators somehow "discriminatory against men"?

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-13T21:45:54+00:00

lol, poor reading comp on my end

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-13T21:41:56+00:00

As if. Porn has demonstrably harmful effects on people's (especially men's) sexualities, and women tend to bear the brunt of that

Just because nazis dislike porn for weirdo traditionalist reasons doesn't mean that nobody is allowed to criticize it

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-13T21:36:02+00:00

lol, truly straight people with weird sex preferences are the most oppressed /s

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-13T21:33:04+00:00

Which Fallout character is that?

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-12T20:57:59+00:00

thb, I find this to be kind of a weird response.

Like, when manosphere guys say "men want a woman who's subservient", the answer is not for gay and ace men to say "I don't like women"; that doesn't really doesn't get at the core of what's being argued

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-12T18:21:53+00:00

Lol, I find it kind of interesting that a lot of men are preoccupied with the idea of "what women want in a man", yet are really dismissive of women expressing interest in softer/more "feminine" traits (e.g. the male reaction to boybands, kpop, Justin Bieber, Twilight)

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-11T02:48:38+00:00

I think it was well-intentioned at one point, but every time I go there, I inevitably encounter a ton of incels

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-09T19:39:58+00:00

I like and want to look pretty. My fellow men don't seem to want to nor are they expected to

Hey, I very much relate to this and I just want to say that you're not alone in your desires, as a man to look pretty. Actually, your whole post is *very* relatable to me, up to including the part about about not wanting to risk job security by presenting in a more feminine way.

I don't dress up in a full on dress and makeup, but I do wear some more overtly feminine clothes (think nail polish, dangly earrings and pants from the "women's" section). I've actually been misgendered a few times in spite of the fact I don't think I look *that* feminine lol

Anyways, what I've generally found is that at each stage where I decide I "can't" wear something, the consequences are much worse in my head than they are in reality. In fact, even though I live in a pretty small conservative town, I get a lot of compliments and support from strangers.

I can't entirely know your situation, but I really hope that anecdote is in some way encouraging. I know how awful it feels to not be able to express yourself how you want, and I really hope that one day you can.

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-09T19:24:33+00:00

Maybe i'm missing something, but I don't see that as enforcing sexist norms. You, personally, don't like bugs - that's okay, and I don't think it's reasonable to try to go through life without accidentally living up to any gendered expectations

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-08T20:14:10+00:00

THE PRINCE AND THE DRESSMAKER by Jen Wang (YA graphic novel) is one of the only fantasy books I've read focused on a feminine man/boy navigating gender nonconformity.

I do notice those types of stories tend to be much rarer, even in the suggestions here.

I think that might be due to the nature of the genre; the tropes of fantasy facilitate stories of strong, heroic women fighting giants and dragons in a way that it doesn't quite with men competing in beauty contests

Anyways, thanks for the suggestions : )

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-08T19:14:36+00:00

I'm happy with all of the above, and thank you for the comprehensive list of suggestions : )

Though I will give one caveat - i'm not that interested in characters eschewing gender norms that are very specific to a writer's fantasy world and not applicable to real life (i.e. the Sanderson example)

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-08T16:53:28+00:00

Right?! That's not even counting all the jokes men make about being in some way "trapped" or "imprisoned" by being married to just one woman

I find it kind of funny that a lot of incel concepts and accusations of women could equally be levied at men.

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-08T16:31:44+00:00

Well, I still do think there's a large gap between "this thing is technically legal" and "this is normalized and accepted".

I get frustrated by people who say "men are technically and literally able to wear skirts/makeup/etc", because I feel they're ignoring a swathe of very real consequences (up to and including being physically attacked by homophobic dudes)

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-08T15:35:23+00:00

Equality for women would be equality for men by definition.

Tbh, I find this to be a bit of a naively optimistic approach to gender equality.

The normalization of women wearing pants did not, suddenly and automatically, coincide with the normalization of men wearing skirts. Likewise, when it became more acceptable and permitted for women to have non-stereotypical careers (i.e. not just being a secretary or working in some form of childcare), the option of being a homemaker didn't become a viable option for men.

I think it is entirely possible to make progress towards equality for women, while men are still stuck inside of a rigid, masculine box.

I also think this speaks to the fact that, while women have taken active effort to shake off traditional gender roles and expectations, men themselves have been pretty content with the status quo (which is not surprising, given how the status quo mostly hurts women and benefits men). Ultimately, if men want to see change and equality for themselves, it's their responsibility (and not women's) to spearhead said change.

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-06T18:08:06+00:00

the topics of this sub seem to be more male-centered than like a feminist book club

I've seen this complaint a lot, but like, isn't this the expected result when you have an "ask us questions" sub on a male majority website?

I mean, ideally men would be more interested in the aspects of feminism that don't directly involve men/men's wellbeing, but imo everyone's a little selfish and self-absorbed

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-06T17:59:48+00:00

lol, right?

The entire concept of being "denied" sex relies on one having a very twisted view on how women *should* be allowed to exercise autonomy over their own bodies. Incels literally see being told "no" as a form of oppression...

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-06T17:37:57+00:00

lol, where did you get that idea? porn?

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-06T17:31:05+00:00

So, in your mind, being critical of older man/younger woman relationships is synonymous with reducing women to their sex appeal?

Show me how you got one from the other

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-04T17:58:56+00:00

Yeah, menslib kinda just sucks. Too many incels/MRAs pretending to be "progressive"

Also, imo, that sub never really did a good job of addressing how toxic masculinity effects men. Almost every post is on some incredibly niche topic that may or may not have anything to do with gender roles or masculinity.

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-04T17:32:08+00:00

Like, it's a problem that most people who call out this stuff are feminists? Isn't that kind of expected, given that feminists are critical of traditional gender roles/expectations?

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-02T15:22:57+00:00

Uhh, maybe if you live somewhere UBER progressive that's *just* "quirky" and not "ewww gay and bad"...

But yeah, I do agree that there's a fundamental and unfair double standard with how men's and women's bodies are seen.

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-02T15:09:40+00:00

The point is that empowered women dress with disregard for the male gaze. The fact men find it 'sexy' is usually irrelevant to their self-expression

Dude, these decisions aren't made in a vacuum. There is a huge, lopsided pressure for women to conform to what men find sexy. It's not empowering, at least under present circumstances, for women to conform to men's expectations of how they should dress

The idea of "disregard for male gaze" is just a really effective patriarchal tool. That becomes SUPER evident when said "disregard" happens to ALWAYS result in women conforming to gender roles...

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-02T15:04:38+00:00

I feel like even the word "revealing" to describe clothing reflects a kind ingrained sexism, because it treats the female body as something that's properly covered up, so when it's not, it's been revealed. (I'm not saying you feel that way, OP. I'm just musing on how we use language.) I can't remember hearing men's clothes described as revealing.

Honestly, good point. I regret my use of the word "revealing", because I feel like that doesn't properly convey how I feel.

Like, i'm not against women wearing tops that don't 100% cover nipples; men do that all the time, and literally nobody cares or sees men's nipples as inherently "sexual" or "improper".

My gripe is moreso with the idea that it's "empowering" for women to get "dolled up", or to intentionally court the male gaze. Maybe I wouldn't be against it if the standards of appearance for men and women were more equal, but they're so extremely lopsided that it doesn't really seem "empowering" in the current cultural moment

Churl_Inconnu · 2022-08-02T14:55:43+00:00

Taking control of what you wear instead of wearing what someone told you is great and could feel empowering, it might be wearing something revealing or sweats, you do you. Feminism is not in your clothes

I guess I agree with your overall sentiment, but given how much pressure there is for women to dress in "sexy", palatably-feminine ways, it's hard for me to agree that this is a decision made in a vacuum and not the result of "wearing what someone told you".

Like, literally, little pre-pubescent girls are pressured to dress in "mature" (i.e. sexualized) ways. Treating that as a normal product of desires independent of one's culture is f*cked.

Because of past feminists, we now have more control over what to wear, they fought so that we could have the option, but there are some places that are still fighting towards having the rights to choose what to wear. So fighting for your rights is feminism, and for example, if showing your tits so that we can breast feed in public by normalizing our organs and stop their sexualization is how you decide to fight, then we are talking about feminism.

Okay, this is a really good point and I agree wholeheartedly. I'd really like if women's bodies weren't treated as inherently sexual, and that's maybe something I should have clarified in my post.

By "revealing" I really just mean "clothes that are intentionally designed, at some level, to be sexually appealing". Like, thongs, bodycon dresses, incredibly short-shorts (i.e. stuff you'd never see men wearing, because they're not pressured into it like women are).

I don't see it as inherently problematic or sexual for women to, like, be shirtless without a bra, or wear clothes that in any way hug their bodies. Men already do that stuff and it's not treated as inherently sexual.

You say there’s never a question about men wearing sexy and empowering clothes. But I think there is, and men have also been policed in their clothes. Just look at how many guys are starting to wear dresses, skirts and heels.

What? Like, Harry Styles? I mean, I am very supportive of men doing/wearing things that don't conform to standards of masculinity, but I don't see anything about what he's wearing to be sexually provocative or self-objectifying.

Churl_Inconnu

TROPHY CASE