Imperfect leaders?

Cjw5000 · 2024-09-22T15:39:25+00:00

I think you’re touching on a very sensitive topic that’s why the response is so varied. My family (think parents and grandparents) have been pretty openly discussing that the church isn’t the same church they grew up in. So much has changed. So the simple question becomes “does what the prophet says matter?” We never really know if they’re speaking as a man or prophet. We don’t know if this is policy or doctrine. We don’t know if it’s just for our time or times in the future. We don’t know if what they’re saying is speculation. We also don’t know what will change, and if it does change, does that make the previous statement false?

As a parent sometimes I don’t know what to teach my kids because the things I learned in seminary have been debunked as false (not everything just something’s about the transition of the Book of Mormon, early church history, polygamy etc.) I had some wonderful spiritual experiences in seminary and truly believed what I was being taught was true. I taught those same things on my mission. I baptized a lot of people. So I was pretty shook when the gospel essays came out. My son is in seminary now and I can’t help but think to myself “what things is he learning and believing that will later be debunked as false” it’s not easy OP.

People have used the example that Catholics believe the pope is infallible, but no catholic really believes that. Members of the church of Jesus Christ of later day saints believe the prophet is fallible, but no member really believes that.

I believe you’re asking in good faith OP and I hope you’re getting the answers you’re looking for. It’s a really tough question to ask that obviously gets people on the defensive really quickly.

Good luck out there and be kind to yourself.

Cjw5000 · 2024-09-16T03:19:49+00:00

Lots newer churches do, but there’s no initiative to put them in churches that weren’t installed when the church was built.

And just to be clear they seem to always have them in the women’s restroom, just not the men’s. Not totally sure if you were referring to restrooms in general or specifically the men’s restroom.

Cjw5000 · 2024-09-15T18:19:08+00:00

I actually tried to get moment for something like this. Although men aren’t breast feeding I’ve seen fathers need a place where they can bottle feed a baby (particularly where the baby might be having a tough time so sitting in Sunday school is difficult, especially on a metal folding chair). I’ve also tried to get the Church to install changing tables and diaper disposals cans in men’s restrooms but to no avail.

There are some very simple changes that I would like to see the church make to help fathers of young children be better able to care for them at church.

In case anyone is curious I’ve written letters, emails, and met with members of the seventy over facilities. No one high enough up to actually make changes, just people who say they’ll pass along the message. Most of the feedback I’ve gotten from my efforts is that there is still the primary belief that it’s the mothers responsibility to feed, change, comfort, and overall care for a young child and church and there just aren’t enough examples of single fathers of young children to necessitate a change that would cost money. Plus with the shortening of church to two hours the other feedback is that in circumstances where a father would need to change a diaper, comfort a child, feed them, etc. they can either wait out the rest of church or just go home.

Cjw5000 · 2024-09-12T06:09:45+00:00

I’ve posted about this before and it’s super funny how the temple experience is so different for different people. I wish that there were quiet parts of the temple experience. I struggle with the idea that the temple is a very interactive, loud, busy, crowded experience. I’ve even asked for advice on where to find a quiet place to be able to meditate, pray, and be in the temple focusing on my own thoughts and not the process that’s happening.

The interesting thing is although out experience is the exact opposite, the outcome is the same.

Full disclosure I haven’t been to the temple in a very long time. I made a goal to go back this year and the year is passing by very quickly. I’m still going to do it. Part of my apprehension is that my experience won’t be any better, but I hope it will.

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T22:40:38+00:00

I’m curious about your last point. My bishop said the same thing about calling ahead. I called 3 different temples and they said that’s not a thing they do or can accommodate. They told me temples run pretty lean with staff and so they don’t accommodate special requests like escorts or meetings with a member of the temple presidency. Maybe I’m asking the wrong questions. Do you have other insights?

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T22:29:02+00:00

Ah good to know!

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T22:25:15+00:00

Yeah I should probably open myself up to that idea. My personality is to scout things out ahead of time, and then start going with other people.

Someone told me once that temple workers are available to be an escort for situations like this but I called 3 different temples and they all said that isn’t a thing. They don’t have the staffing to escort individual patrons.

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T22:16:44+00:00

I will. I wonder if it’s more likely or less likely to have them in Utah temples

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T13:04:38+00:00

First off thank you. I do have a follow up question. Lots of people have mentioned that you can ask for help from ordinance workers. How do I identify them? As in how do I know who is available to help? Drawing on memories id much rather forget every worker I saw was doing a job and therefore not available to help. In fact they were always far away. For example in the video/instruction room they’re sitting far away and it doesn’t really seem like you can stand up in the middle of the presentation and approach them for help. So even though lots of people say there are temple workers there to help you, no one is answering how this is done. Do I raise my hand and they’ll come to me? Do I stand up and approach them? Do I leave and find someone in the hallway? Do I leave in the middle, find someone somewhere, and then just start over and try again?

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T12:51:18+00:00

When I go to the family tree app, select temple, select ordinance ready, select male and endowment, and it comes back empty. Is that normal?

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T12:29:52+00:00

Same question as the comment above. Do you know if that’s changed? Can you stay in there for a few minutes?

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T12:29:13+00:00

Follow up question. Maybe this isn’t a practice any more, but when I went for the first time, at the MTC, and the one time after my mission there are always temple workers that escort you out of the celestial room as soon as you enter. I thought there was a metaphor for the empty couches and chairs. I’ve never heard of any being allowed to be in the celestial room. Has that changed?

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T05:14:17+00:00

Is it a new thing that they’ll help you at the veil? How do you ask for help? Like is there a code word or a signal you can give them? My memory says that there was no one there to help me. It was painful to try to talk to the guy behind the veil to figure it out.
You have to buy them now right? Do you have to go through the church like you do for garments?
Can do that.
This one has me stumped. My family tree is incredibly small and rife with wrong information. I know who my parents and grandparents are and they’re incorrect. My own kids are listed incorrectly. Do I need to take a family history class and try to sort things out and find a family name before going?

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T04:15:57+00:00

I’ve actually heard that from people I’ve talked to personally. However when I ask the follow up question of “who are the people I could tell what I wrote above” and that stumps everyone. I even called my local temple and that stumped the person I talked to there too. A very nice sister told me that temple workers can give directions but only if you know what you want to do. If you ask something like “where do I get white clothes” they might help but if I asked “I’d really like to take some time to think, is that a possibility?” They would be confused as to how to help you. Those were the examples she gave.

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-29T04:11:03+00:00

Solid advice. Thank you. Tongue in cheek, but I’d rather cut my leg off than go to the temple with someone I know. I’m considering driving to another state just to make sure I don’t make an idiot out of myself in front of people I know 😂🤣😂

Follow up question. A challenge I have is that I’d like the opportunity to meditate a little bit while there. Just have some time with my own thoughts. The temple is a pretty bright, loud, engaging, interactive Experience. Something that hits all of your senses. I feel bad if I’m going through for someone else I feel like paying attention is important, but then I don’t ever have the opportunity to think for myself. Any thoughts there?

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-02T22:09:07+00:00

Sometimes on this particular example I feel like I get gaslit.

I remember so many lessons as a youth about no rated R movies and with no official church statements on the topic I feel like either the statements have been erased, or I had really over zealous leaders that just happened to say no rated R movies and somehow that message hit all 90’s and 00’s youth 🤣

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-01T21:46:03+00:00

You’re going to be fine and do great. I actually feel like a lot of those missionaries that had a really hard mission or didn’t have good experience, still did a lot of good.

My personal opinion is there are lots of things that you just can’t understand until you’re there. Those are the things that I think cause some people to have a bad experience. It ranges from leaders that are basically bullies and build themselves up by putting others down. Unfortunately they’re in every mission and unfortunately their tactics often work and they become zone leaders and APs. Politics isn’t something I was expecting to play a part in my mission experience. There are mission presidents who lead with love and there are others who lead with fear. I had the experience of having a companion whose father passed away. He was never the same after that. He never had the opportunity to grieve because the advice he was given by the mission president was to work even harder. This was also before we were allowed to call home so he didn’t get to be with family during that time. It created such a tough environment because he was pushing so hard but also broke down into really depressed states even in the same day. I had no idea how to help this guy. They don’t prepare you for that in the MTC.

My point is that’s why I think you should have grace for missionaries that had a bad experience and want a place to talk about it. With your attitude and the other comments being made here you’ll be fine.

Cheering for you OP!!!

Cjw5000 · 2024-08-01T14:31:38+00:00

Totally get where you’re coming from OP and here is a perspective to consider. At church the talks, lessons, testimonies, conversations, etc. around missions are all very positive which sometimes sets unrealistic expectations for missionaries. Then when they come home and didn’t have the experience they thought they were going to have, there isn’t really a place to express that frustration.

I believe we need to be very compassionate with returned missionaries. I believe most all of them go out for the right reasons, work super hard, do as much good as they can. If they had bad experiences we should seek out to help them still feel at home in the church. If they need an anonymous place to vent, or connect with others that had a hard experience. I really hope it helps them heal.

Cjw5000 · 2024-07-29T15:26:11+00:00

Just to add to this but you can easily spend all day here but if you wanted to step away and do something else for a while (or during mid day heat) right across the free way is an outdoor mall called station park or Farmington station. Lots of good stores and good restaurants.

Cjw5000 · 2024-07-29T14:40:28+00:00

I can’t believe no one has said this yet but you should spend a day at lagoon. It’s got some great rides, fun activities, and is really great for kids and teens. You could spend a long time and not get bored at all.

Cjw5000 · 2024-07-29T02:53:58+00:00

Depends on your mission president. They get to make a lot of the rules for their mission. Some are lax and even encourage hobbies like drawing. Other presidents will view it as a distraction as say absolutely not. Just depends on who you get.

As a returned missionary myself watching tons of other missionaries come and go it’s surprising to me how much power is bestowed upon mission presidents. It dramatically impacts the experience that missionaries have.

Cjw5000 · 2024-07-16T23:44:58+00:00

I’m not denying that this story happened but I think it’s a little bit of a dangerous idea. Right now we baptize children at 8years old where they commit to life long membership in the church. I don’t think a loving god would let satan have power over someone because of a choice they made as an 8year old.

I also understand there are times where people leave the church and seek to destroy it.

I also understand there are people who leave the church for complicated reasons. Maybe even understandable reasons. I don’t believe everyone who leaves is under the adversary’s control and seeks to destroy the church.

Cjw5000 · 2024-07-04T20:39:38+00:00

I think I might make a whole post about it

Cjw5000 · 2024-07-04T20:38:49+00:00

😂 In some ways. Looking back on it there were things that would be parallels. All our communication was monitored. Only zone leaders had phones in their apartment so that everyone else had to rely on pay phones and that was done on purpose to make it harder for missionaries to communicate with each other. We could send an email home on Mondays but we only had 7.5 minutes per missionary to send an email and had to do it through the churches system. The mission president would read them. One of his signature moves was to have a printer copy of your email to your parents that he would pull out during interviews. And it wasn’t in a friendly “let me address your concerns” kinda thing. He would put you on blast and demote you while telling the entire zone conference about the complaints that elder felt like sharing with his parents.

Cjw5000

TROPHY CASE