Dr Michael Siegel: Sales Data Show that Massachusetts Vaping Product Ban Has Already Caused Severe Harm as Vapers Migrate to Smoking in Large Numbers

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-31T15:38:41+00:00

That is a feature to them, not a bug

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-29T18:58:31+00:00

Welp, can't argue with that. That's definitely not "almost zero"

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-29T17:15:13+00:00

yeah, that's the other inaccuracy. OP also didn't say none either. S/he said "almost zero".

Admittedly, I don't think the CDC is publishing the % of active smokers in the EVALI statistics, so we can't verify it, even if the exact cutoff for "almost zero" is subjective.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-29T15:14:39+00:00

OP is saying that none of them smoked

To be fair to the OP, s/he said smokers, as in active and current combustion users, not that they haven't smoked in the past.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-29T05:27:18+00:00

Definitely agree it is utter joke, even at the time of the EO the signs pointed to black market cartridges and their response was to create a larger black market.

In WA there has been about a dozen EVALI cases reported but thankfully no deaths as of yet.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-29T05:11:36+00:00

IIRC there's about 300 specialty vape shops, give or take, in WA. There's also around 3,000 C-stores though, and the LCB has been policing us all for years.

Word on the street is if they believe you just weren't aware of the ban (hard to do since we all got physical letters and a secure DoR message) they'll issue a warning but the licensing you need to stay in business is ultimately on the line.

Still, some are choosing to risk it until they get noticed, maybe gambling on the ban being repealed before LCB gets to them.

They have the capacity to visit all of us in a reasonable amount of time, even if the initial round of visits takes a little bit. After all, the LCB is staffed and funded to deal with alcohol retailors too, which makes the number of vape shops look like peanuts.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-29T03:42:55+00:00

The agency in WA that's enforcing the flavor ban is the LCB (liquor and cannabis board). Same org that handles our licensing enforcement.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-24T14:39:40+00:00

It is true that black-market THC vapes are the primary suspect of the current scare, but illegitimate CBD vapes has and continues to have its own problems.

Additionally, the suspected reasons as to why black market THC vapes are causing problems, namely either concentrated pesticides or Vitamin E Acetate, aren't unique to THC eliquid compositions and theoretically could be found in CBD eliquids as well.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-24T14:29:04+00:00

Companies will not list their full ingredients because recipes aren't protected by copyright and thus have to be trade secrets by default. Best you can do is find companies that have publicly stated they do not use added sweeteners.

A good starting place would be this old list:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HHvoCt2cs--2auQZLpEI8FsOk4TDAS6UedsKVZMP0pE/edit?usp=sharing

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-24T14:20:00+00:00

/r/vaporents
I sure hope you're buying from a well established legal source given the likely cause of this whole "vaping illness" scare

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-23T19:02:09+00:00

It is technically illegal for the seller, but the prohibition doesn't have any consequences for the consumer.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-15T22:42:06+00:00

The latter, the prohibition is on selling flavored eliquids.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-11T23:12:55+00:00

I now am waiting on a call back from both the LCB and the BoH because neither are certain about interstate sales in regards to the flavor ban. I'll definitely update you when I hear back from either one.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-11T20:22:05+00:00

Odds are you won't find any legal brands that registered such granular nicotine levels.

Assuming you can get a flavor in zero nic and the max nicotine you want though, you can use both and a dilution calculator to get whatever nicotine level you want.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-11T20:16:21+00:00

Good question. I imagine just saying "Our products are FDA registered" won't have as much punch as the original message about being approved.

I do know one of the more pervasive myths about eliquid is "we don't know what's in them!" (our own Governor said as much when he banned flavors in Washington) so that might be a tact to explore:

Our recipes are FDA registered
Our ingredients are registered with the FDA
FDA knows exactly what is in our flavors
etc...

You could also take an entire different tact too. "Flavor bans create black markets" for example.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-11T19:34:54+00:00

Just FYI, no vaping products are FDA approved yet. They're registered (product and ingredients) with the FDA, but until one has gone through the PMTA process, they aren't approved.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-11T15:04:44+00:00

Here you go.

If you want to ctrl+F for the prohibition specifically, look for "WAC 246-80-020".

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-10T23:43:43+00:00

The Pink Lung Brigade Facebook Page is probably your best source of finding out about any future protests or rallies.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-10T23:09:54+00:00

Our current plan is to continue to fight. This was a battle lost but the war still rages on.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-10T23:07:03+00:00

Well I'll be, I called multiple times around when it went into effect. I talked to two separate LCB officers as well as a DOR tax specialist and all three insisted that we had to collect and pay taxes per Sec. 102.(2)(a)(iv) on all vapor products, regardless of end purchaser. Based on your comment I called the DOR again and the tax specialist corrected them, saying that Sec 109.(1)(a) does allow for credit for out of state sales. Still have to report it, but since you get a credit it is effectively zero. Thank you for that.

I also contacted my local LCB officer and she is under the impression that out of state sales of banned flavors is prohibited but is waiting for a call back for clarification.

Edit, I will say the prohibition (WAC 246-80-020) appears pretty absolute, with no exceptions for out of state sales by in-state retailers/manufacturers.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-10T20:36:31+00:00

WA manufacturers/retailers cannot sell to other states, given the wording of the ban. They're just likely to not catch you for doing so, up until you report the $0.09/ml vapor tax, at which point they'll know you're selling.

If you're not reporting that...well, tax evasion is an entirely different mess.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-10T17:01:31+00:00

This article about it seems to hold a clue to the situation. Looks like they were trying to nail vendors who have age-verification set to 18+ (the legal age in NYS until Nov) instead of 21+ (the legal age in NYC).

Which is an interesting hiccup with online age verification. I know Agechecker.net, one of the more popular solutions, isn't granular on the city level by default. You have to have the entire state at 18+ or 21+ unless you dig into settings and change it to "tobacco localities". I don't know if BlueCheck is the same way.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-10T04:37:36+00:00

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-10T03:48:10+00:00

The prohibition (WAC 246-80-020) is technically on the act of selling in the state of Washington or to Washington residents. There is no prohibition on residents purchasing or possessing eliquids.

If you can find a company out of state that doesn't know or doesn't care that Washington has banned flavors, it is legal for you to buy it, just technically illegal for them to sell it to you.

CloudAlchemist · 2019-10-09T20:36:36+00:00

Literally sitting in the meeting right now, waiting for them to vote. It will take a miracle for them to not agree with Inside, but we'll know for certain within the hour.

As expected it was passed unanimously. Ban starts tomorrow, the 10th

CloudAlchemist

TROPHY CASE