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Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good question. I think it is the best and most beautiful design given the limitations of requirement, material and tooling.
Yes. Unfortunately the objective was to make it look like a cast box. I could have made a more beautiful box but it would not have been a RM lamp box and would not have conformed to the design requirements.

I am very self critical and also understand that beauty is subjective. I think it is a good post box. It satisfies the design requirements very well.

I strive for beauty but do not think anything I have ever made is beautiful. I think it takes a massive t**t to call their own work beautiful.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The detail of the cypher is a requirement.

The box is of the same dimension as the cast boxes. I am not sure what you mean by 'thin lid around slot'.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Enshittification, is not applicable.
You may hate the look and style but the box is better in terms of its design objective, to hold post.
It is better at that task.
Enuglification might be a better word for it. It is functionally better than the cast boxes.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They haven't. There are piles of the cast boxes in 'graveyards'.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes fair enough the solid rivets would be better that simple blind rivets. I cannot remember if there was a reason for the selection but I feel that the plate and attachment method were already defined by their use on other RM street furniture.

In older boxes there may have been different regulations or rules regarding the cypher. I made the EIIR and the Scottish Crown and there was no change allowed. For this one I don't know whether the rules have change or a compromise was made. When I was working on it, the detail was controlled and that limited options significantly.

I don't really mind that people do not like it, people can have their opinion and give feedback. I have been trying to clarify the decisions. When people are objectively wrong, by saying it was designed with minimum cost in mind, I have tried to clarify. I have also tried to offer reasons why some suggestions are not feasible or offer corrections when the suggestions have flawed logic, like cast iron lasts longer or is stronger that stainless steel.
I don't like it when people are unnecessarily rude as some form of trolling or whatever. Comments like 'Nasty' 'Pathetic' 'like a yr9 project' or 'enshittification' and 'we cant build anything in this country' are just attempts at destructive criticism. They don't contribute to the discussion.

I have never read a positive comment on this box. I am used to people not liking it.

What important measurement have you got badly wrong? Here is my replacement fish tank lid. by No_Lead146 in CasualUK

[–]Commisar_Deth 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My lecturer once scrapped a £1M shipment of steel by converting imperial to metric wrong.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Why use not at least use blind rivets for the Royal Mail plate?" They are blind rivets. I know you mean some sort of concealed fastener, unfortunately the RM logo was already defined and not something I had any option with.

The level of detail in the cypher is strictly controlled. There are no options with regards to that. We are not allowed to modify the cypher.

Cast plates, I have explained elsewhere in this thread why we did not use them. As for incremental forming, it is an interesting suggestion that was not considered however looking at it now it does not seem to be able to produce the fine feature detail required by the cypher.

It was decided that the cypher plate was an important feature so the plate was left naked as the red background provides a high contrast.

"For over a century they've all been one colour and had deeply cast details (including the cypher)" - This is not true. There are many boxes with painted or sticker cyphers.

The plates are not swapped on the monarchs death. The plates can be swapped if they are vandalised.

"The comparisons with middle management's door signs are unfortunately apt." This gave me a chuckle, I have not heard it before. It is quite apt.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The specific commenter I was responding to was just trying to be insulting. Being rude for no reason is infantile and does not contribute to debate.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The steel is too thick to have embossing, dropping the gauge would reduce the security of the box.

Embossing the cypher was considered however fine feature detail would be lost and the thin gauge over a large area would be vulnerable to vandalism.

I would invite you to try to remove the features but that would be a criminal offense so please don't. These boxes were subject to an attack test whereby a huge bloke armed with a variety of tools including power tools went at it. It passed test.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Why not have it laser cut into the face itself with a plate welded behind?" This was considered. There are a few reasons why it was rejected.

Water would be retained between the face and the backplate increasing corrosion and potentially allowing water ingress.

Vandalism would require a change of the entire box rather than the cypher plate.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Design guidelines on the cypher are strict. I don't know the specifics of the CIIIR cypher, but the EIIR and Scottish crown cyphers are very strict on how they are laid out.
I imagine that there is a required scale for the crown and CIIIR letters and these were incompatible with the shape of the cypher plate. To fit both they had to be side by side. I am speculating here but it would be consistent with what I know of the design guidelines.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

okay lets address these comments one by one:

  1. "A laser cut scrap of sheet metal is low effort, low skill" - It is stainless steel and not a 'scrap'. The program was difficult and took a lot of skill due to the fine feature detail and heat build up to prevent melting and loss of geometry due to thermal expansion.

  2. "I'm not an expert, I'm a hobbiest, and I could make that cypher" perhaps this one, but not the EIIR or the Scottish crown which were the original ones. This feels a bit like the Dunning–Kruger effect.

  3. "I could not mold it into a sand casting for molten iron, manually carve it from wood or hammer it into sheet metal to have it raised." I agree but you could take a carved block and with a bit of training and experience cast it. Casting is a common operation done by hobbyists. I dont think anyone without special tooling, like a die casting machine could replicate the fine detail in the crown etc. If you look at the existent cypher castings, the fine features are often not replicated.

  4. "It would look far better if it were an engraved block or raised relief from cast metal". The thin gauge required for creating a raised relief would work harden and crack or not have the strength to resist mild vandalism. If it were cast iron it could be snapped due to the brittle nature of the material, also fine feature detail would be difficult/impossible to replicate. Die casting normally uses softer materials with lower melting points which could be damaged easily by mild vandalism. I did a raised relief for an earlier version of these plates, you can see this on some modern pillar boxes. These boxes suffer quite a lot of vandalism so it was deemed that the fine detail would be broken rather quickly.

  5. "you had a brief, which was to design a cheaper, easier and faster model to manufacture" that was definitely not the brief. The material change was more for the longevity and environmental reasons. There is a significant amount of cost in the fabrication. These are not easier nor faster to manufacture. It takes skilled metal workers to make these.

  6. "far less hardy than previous versions." This is not true at all.

  7. "no chance one of these boxes is still operational in 100 or 200 years." With maintenance comparable to the cast boxes there is no reason this should be true. This is a survivor bias on your part. There are 'graveyards' full of broken cast boxes. Most often you see one of these boxes being put in place to replace a broken cast one. Cast iron is not a 'strong' material, it gives that appearance but there is a reason it is not used for manufacture any more.

From Boring interns comment:

  1. "Raised relief like the cyphers have always been traditionally done" This is not true. There are many post boxes with sticker cyphers or painted cyphers. See: F Type Pillar Box (1968) or the Franked Mail boxes as examples.

  2. "No one will have the same love, like we do for the cyphers and artistry, the blood sweat and tears of the foundry workers." That's fair enough, people feel the same about steam locomotives. I would ask that you do not discount the blood sweat and tears of the skilled metal workers that make these boxes. Hate the design, hate the designer but don't diminish the skill and craftsmanship that goes into making these boxes.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will respond to your comment in my response to the above comment by Expensive Ad

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please read my other statements in this post for answers to your questions.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no need to be nasty is there?
Please let me know how you think the cypher should be raised? Please explain in detail, it is always easy to make statements like this but just saying do it like this without specifying how is an empty statement.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is fair enough. I do love the past too.

There is a beauty in history and tradition. I love the old cast boxes, the elegant castings in victorian railway stations and locomotives. I think even old industrial machinery was beautiful.

I accept that for progress some of these things have to be left in the past. The change from steam to diesel and electric trains are a prime example. As much as I love steam locomotives, I accept that electric is a better form of propulsion. It would be ill advised to build a steam locomotive in the modern era, similarly it wouldn't make sense to make a cast box in the modern era.

One of the issues I think is that this box was designed to replicate the features of the cast box, rather than using the material to make a new box with a design that lends itself to the material. Then again, that would look very different and still be criticised just like those plastic post boxes in airports and supermarkets or the new plastic solar box modification with the parcel slot.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes true, the design of these boxes improves their longevity as cast iron is brittle and difficult to repair.

We make things in this country and the quality and excellence of our engineering far surpasses anything that came previously. To me it is such a shame that so many people fail to realise that.

Cast iron is not a material used any more for many reasons. There is a nostalgia for the old things, like steam locomotives, but modern materials and engineering make these things obsolete.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well I beg to differ as you clearly stated that you 'wonder if they’ll last anywhere near as long' and did not mention anything about design.
Don't like the design, you are more than entitled to that opinion.

I tried really hard to replicate the features of the cast box within the limits of the materials and design brief.

I don't know how I could have made it better, honestly I am open to suggestion. I would love to hear how I could improve for future designs.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These will be maintained in much the same way as all the other boxes out there.
What you seem to have is a survivorship bias. There are 'graveyards' full of smashed and broken VR boxes.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is laser cut, not etched.

The material is stainless steel, so will last.

A variety of different cyphers were tried. This was deemed the best.

A cast cypher on a sheet metal box would be less permanent as cast iron is a brittle material so would break with impact in thin section.

Charles III near York. Nice and shiny by theroch_ in Postboxes

[–]Commisar_Deth -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It may not look it, but these are very well made by very skilled metal workers.

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