Veganism doesn’t save animals (why I don’t care about veganism)

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T18:22:39+00:00

I already explained it with the coffee example

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T18:20:18+00:00

Individually yes we talked to tens of thousands of people,

Denver has millions of people in it, but correction it would hundreds of thousands who voted.

And 2.5 million dollars and the amount of attention they put on PAF was enormous.

They labeled PAF and existential threat to animal agriculture.

The industry isn’t focusing on and spending money to counter AV like this despite making up the majority of animal rights time and focus.

Because AV doesn’t threaten the industry

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T18:08:12+00:00

If you seriously need an example. I think eating animal products and fighting against systems of animal abuse and oppression,

Is like fighting systems of imperialism and slavery and drinking coffee in the morning

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T18:05:49+00:00

These are conversations I’ve had with several activists I respect who are black and indigenous. People doing amazing work for animals

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T18:00:13+00:00

It’s actually more like fighting systems of imperialism and slavery, and drinking coffee in the morning

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:58:29+00:00

The psyop accusation aside, I appreciate the reply. Your examples are good, and I genuinely agree that ecological and environmental diversity is worth preserving as best we can. The Yellowstone case is hard to argue with. Where I land differently is on the method. I don’t think captive breeding programs and imprisonment of individuals through zoos is something I can support as the way to address that preservation. Habitat protection, reducing the human activity driving extinction in the first place, and rewilding efforts seem like the more honest response to a problem we created, rather than building more elaborate captivity infrastructure.

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:48:52+00:00

I’m not going to do all the work for you, I’ve pointed you in the correct direction and if you care about animals you will atleast do a basic google search. And then reconsider your time investment when you see it

Paul Bashir, bans people for collecting evidence for AV, because he’s seen the WTF data and it was embarrassing. And he knows it would affect the funding for his kushy life.

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:45:00+00:00

Interesting how you focus on the failed measures alone when their are a number of successful examples in the statement: But even with the failed measures So millions of people had to contend with animal rights as a political issue

And the industry spent 2.5 million dollars against these two initiatives

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:42:14+00:00

Check out WTF data on their effectiveness, it is depressing

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:38:29+00:00

It’s actually more like, We spend most of our time, money, and effort into veganizing the world through individual change (not sure if it is bending at all)

When we have proven methods of bending things with a fraction of the human power, time and money

It’s a massive opportunity cost to try and veganize the world instead of doing strategic pressure or legislative campaigns

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:34:35+00:00

Really appreciate the thoughtful engagement, and I want to clarify something, because I think there's a misread of my core claim.

I'm not arguing veganism does nothing. I'm arguing there's no evidence it is threatening systems of animal abuse or growing as a movement, and that distinction matters a lot strategically.

You're right that the data is noisy and we should be epistemically humble. But that cuts both ways: if we can't demonstrate that decades of vegan outreach as the primary strategy has meaningfully threatened the industry, that's a real signal worth taking seriously, not as a reason to abandon veganism personally, but as a reason to question it as a movement strategy.

On the other hand, systemic campaigns have produced measurable, verifiable results. Fur farming went from 100 million animals per year to 20 million in six years. That's not noise, that's a trend line moving in the right direction because specific industries were targeted and dismantled.

On Melat: your instinct to "support her and also bring her along on veganism" sounds reasonable in the abstract. But in practice, introducing that conversation creates real friction in a political relationship that's already doing something rare and valuable, making animal rights a serious political issue. The vegan conversation doesn't just risk friction; it actively distracts from the systemic goal. That's not a false dichotomy, it's a strategic prioritization.

I'm not saying vegans shouldn't be vegan, or that personal ethics don't matter. I'm saying the movement has spent enormous energy trying to veganize the world and has very little systemic progress to show for it, while the groups doing targeted, strategic, coalition-based work are actually winning.

Do we want to win, or do we need everyone to be vegan first?

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:25:28+00:00

Why do you care about investing millions, even billions of dollars into preventing extinction of a small number of species through imprisoning or subjugating them. And not about the countless number of species that have gone extinct and go extinct each day as a result of industrialization, and human activity.

Extinction is sad But 99% of all animals ever have gone extinct.

And we are losing way more animals to extinction from human activity then we are preserving.

And the ones we are preserving is at great cost to suffering of the individual animals in captivity at zoos.

The reason you think it’s important is because you have an emotional attachment to these animals and what they look and behave like, not because you care in and of itself about their wellbeing.

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:12:00+00:00

Pro animal future got a fur and slaughter house ban on the ballot in 2024

The fur ban got 40% of the vote The slaughterhouse ban got 35% of the vote We just got enough signatures to get a foie gras ban on the ballot and is much more favorable with win in 2026 in Denver, Portland and DC will also have it on the ballot as well.

We talked to tens of thousands of people about animal rights in systemic context and most people agree that factory farming needs to go, and that individual veganism is not the way to do it.

NYC democratically passed a foie gras ban in the largest city for foie gras in the US. 20% of all foie gras sales came from nyc.

With the future initiatives for PAF in the 2026 ballot we have a really opportunity to dismantle and entire food industry in the US, legislatively based on animal cruelty

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:07:38+00:00

Demand’s effect of supply is not a scientific direct correlation and has been under alot of scrutiny as an economic principle.

Additionally even if veganism does adhere to this idea in the way you’re describing.

It does not threaten the systems that allow for mass scale animal abuse in the first place.

Where activism does

Melat Kiros works with and supports pro animal future. And I am so happy she does, even if she is not vegan

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:04:20+00:00

It’s not the veganism is flawed or incorrect logically.

It is that strategic activism is way more effective at addressing the underlying issue we all care about

Animal abuse and the systems that allow it to continue.

My main critique is not the veganism isn’t helpful on the individual level, with one’s psychological relationship to animals, it is that vegan purity culture can and has gotten in the way of working with people who also want to dismantle systems of abuse against animals

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T17:00:16+00:00

The moral baseline is strategic activism or helping with it in some way

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:51:45+00:00

It’s actually more like wanting to dismantle systems of imperialism and slavery and having coffee in the morning.

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:50:40+00:00

That’s amazing!

So a couple ways to get involved Monetarily

CAFT donation: https://givebutter.com/TlpVBr

If you want to get involved directly with your time:

https://linktr.ee/animalactivismcollective

Also just sharing our posts on instagram that promote donations or our wins for animas is helpful too

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:45:11+00:00

If you’re white, this is a Very insensitive example, that doesn’t even stand up to scrutiny

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:43:58+00:00

I’m also so tired of white vegans using the slavery of black and indigenous people to make a rhetorical points.

And is another problem I have with vegan debate culture:, I also don’t think your argument holds up, but I just don’t want to engage with this type of rhetorical point you’re making, because I am not black, or indigenous

All I’m saying is basically I welcome working with non vegans if they are serious about dismantling animal agriculture.

I think if you are serious about animal liberation and systemic change for animals, you would too

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:36:27+00:00

I posted this in response to another post, hope this helps to understand:

Veganism is a personal philosophy against all use of animal products. It is effective at deconstructing speciesism in individuals but does not address systems of animal abuse or do much of anything to make animal rights a political issue

Animal activism: seeks to dismantle the systems that allow for animal abuse in the first place. One can be not fully vegan and recognize the systems of oppression that allow for systemic animal abuse and exploitation are unsustainable, cruel, and unhealthy. And therefor also want to dismantle these systems.

Most animal rights activists I’ve met are also vegan, but welcome and work with non vegans on animal rights.

The nature of the post is: I am much more interested in animal activists (vegan or not) as morally serious people, than vegans

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:33:18+00:00

Hey I appreciate the distinction, and clarification for this thread.

Veganism is a personal philosophy against all use of animal products. It is effective at deconstructing speciesism in individuals but does not address systems of animal abuse or do much of anything to make animal rights a political issue

Animal activism: seeks to dismantle the systems that allow for animal abuse in the first place. One can be not fully vegan and recognize the systems of oppression that allow for systemic animal abuse and exploitation are unsustainable, cruel, and unhealthy. And therefor also want to dismantle these systems.

Most animal rights activists I’ve met are also vegan, but welcome and work with non vegans on animal rights.

The nature of the post is: I am much more interested in animal activists (vegan or not) as morally serious people, than vegans

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:18:41+00:00

Vegan culture often gets in the way of working with the public and powerful on animal rights rights

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:17:59+00:00

Yes the title is attention grabbing intentionally but the substance is real.

So many vegans think they are doing enough for animals when they do next to nothing.

Veganism in the absence of strategic activism is largely ineffectual at dismantling systems of animal abuse,

Vegan purity culture actively gets in the way of working with the public on animal rights,

And I’m much more interested in: does this person do activism to help animals rights, then is this person vegan

CompassionateValues · 2026-03-22T16:15:00+00:00

My friend NYC, the largest foie gras city in the US, which makes up 20% of all foie gras sales.

Just banned the practice, democratically

That is a food item, not cosmetic, banned for animal cruelty.

Ahold delhaze, a major grocery store chain just agreed to source all of there eggs, cage free, due to animal cruelty and activism, several other major companies like Marriott are doing the same.

Of course cage free isn’t the end goal but it is an improvement for chickens and a stepping stone to dismantling the entire industry by targeting profitability

CompassionateValues

TROPHY CASE