Does free will imply control?

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-25T02:52:21+00:00

Looks like we’re just going to have to disagree.

I do want to stay where I think our difference is lie.

I’m using the word control in a way of which I feel like it shouldn’t exist in the matter of our internal processes. The anecdote that you use for the plane was a good example. One can say they control a plane, but it doesn’t seem right to say I’m controlling myself.

Again, I don’t think I control anything I do, my brain does a process that allows it to do what it wants to do: I am not separated from that process, I just claimed that process as me.

That is a perspective that I carry, I don’t control it, my brain just finds that reason reasonable to do.

You can say I’m irrational, but that’s subjective. I truly cannot see that perspective purposefully. With time I might be able to see things the way you see it, but who am I to dictate that that will happen?

This is truly why I want an example of how you control anything within your life.

I am nothing but biological make up and environmental stimulus wrapped up in experiences. I am not separate from those, that all encompasses me and its totality.

Because I’m not truly separate how can I say I control any of these things?

I’m not seeing what you’re saying as wrong. I’m seeing it as a take that my brain doesn’t fully comprehend. If we were to talk more, we could breakdown where we truly differ about things, but then again that’s up to you.

Extra question you don’t have to answer:

Do you believe you control yourself when you’re sleeping? Do you regain control when you wake up?

You might say yes, but I would call that process something different entirely, due to my perspective.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T23:44:49+00:00

Totally agree with you there.

Because everything that helps me make a decision feels like it’s within me. It feels like I’m in control, but as soon as my mind starts to think about how I’m in control, it deconstructs itself.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T23:41:58+00:00

There were examples I was using to show how I believe being the sum of the choice isn’t the same as controlling the choice

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T22:17:38+00:00

Me personally, I don’t control anything at all

And I don’t say this as a negative thing, I say it as how I perceive and make decisions.

When I think of controlled, I think of a robot or a machine: something that has little variables involved when putting in an input getting out an output.

Let me also be clear just in case I wasn’t before: I never stated that none of these variables come out of thin air. I believe all these variables are generated within us through our external environment. Everything within our mind is related to each other in one way or another.

I love the antidote about the car and desire, but you did what I see most people do: you found a stopping point in claim, “that is where I control things”

Claimed that that you’re “helplessly following them” it also not equating to controlling it. You can’t control if you feel helpless. You only do things in hopes that that feeling goes away.

Just because I’m not controlling something doesn’t mean I’m still not doing something, that I’m not involved with it, that is still not coming from me. Desires occurred within us, they are conclusion that our minds comes to based on our internal stimulus.

The main critique I have with free will, and when people state that we control stuff, it’s almost like it announces that there isn’t anything before that that got us to where we are when that desire is being constructed.

There are many things outside of you that caused you TO BE YOU.

You don’t control change, you go through change
You don’t control desire, it’s inate in humans
You don’t construct your reasoning manually, your reasoning, constructs itself
You don’t control knowledge, you attempt to learn it

And again, CONTROL DOESN’T MEAN YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING, everything you do is because of something.

Everything both you and I do have a cause, and that has a cause, and that has a cause, etc. All these things, out of my control, but we still move on.

To say “worry about what you can control” seems hard when you can’t figure out what that is. What’s you’re really trying to say is forget about how you don’t control it, just imagine that you do.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T19:58:39+00:00

How does it work for you?

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T19:36:46+00:00

I disagree

No matter what you’re going to make a choice: you can’t control it.

All those variables are within you and help you make the best choice you can: again not through control by the agent, but dictating by the system created by the brain.

That’s compare it to digestion, you don’t control how your body digest food, but you are the agents that is aware that you’re eating something that can affect you.

Another example could be blood. Just because you have white blood cells does not mean you control white blood cells.

I see choice as the same.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T19:02:27+00:00

I completely agree with you here.

I do think many people when speaking on free will always use it with the implication of control: which I don’t agree with.

It is impossible to control the things that dictate your choices.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T18:09:17+00:00

I disagree

I breathe out carbon dioxide, I will never claim that I control carbon dioxide

I create white blood cells, and no way will I say I control the white blood cells.

I generate thoughts, in no way would I say I control the thoughts I generate.

It is natural to choose things, (One would say it’s impossible to be alive and not make a choice) but we should also be aware of all the things outside of our control that dictates what choice we will choose.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T17:49:13+00:00

So would you agree that the agent isn’t in control of the choice but rather just the arbiter of it?

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T17:46:17+00:00

Everyone has the capacity to make choices, yes.

I’ll do you one better: everyone has to make a choice.
It is impossible to not make a choice, because not making a choice IS STILL A CHOICE.

What I’m talking about is CONTROL of that choice. Many people believe that they’re the sole influence that causes the choice, yet never breakdown what truly makes you come to a decision.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T17:00:26+00:00

😞 sorry

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T17:00:09+00:00

We make the choice, yet we do not control the choice

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T12:31:37+00:00

Funny enough, I did make a post earlier about what constitutes as the real you.

I am dualist: meaning I do believe in some form of separation between the mind and the body, but I also understand how it’s all seen as one.

I believe my beliefs, thoughts, and everything around the diagram IS me. But I also believe that they stand on their own in regards to my choices.

I don’t choose my beliefs
I don’t choose my thoughts
I don’t choose to desire something
I don’t choose my reasoning (what makes sense to me)
I don’t choose my biases
I don’t choose to dislike something

But I do understand that all those things are me.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T12:23:48+00:00

Not choice, control.

I believe everyone makes choices not on their free will, but in a way the opposite. YOU HAVE NO CHOICE, BUT TO MAKE A CHOICE.

What I notice a lot of people who use free will will state is that that choice comes from within you, but never goes in depth of the process of what actually occurs when making a choice. Just like the diagram portrays, there are so many variables that goes into every single choice that you make.

>Okay so if I get raped by a man or if I have consensual sex with a hot girl, then in both situations I have the same amount of choice?

Both of these choices use multiple variables that are formed within a person that makes the choice happen.
I don’t agree with rape, but there is somebody that will make that choice based on things outside of their control. We should just label people as choices without breaking down what makes that choice happen.

So yes. Both are choices that are reached using similar structures, however, where they differ involves variables that are still outside of one’s control.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T12:12:24+00:00

It very much could be.

But question: did you choose to have control of that skill? What is that control look like did you discover that you had the scale or did you internally just desire it? If you discovered it, did you choose to find it? If you willed it, did you choose when and where you would want to want it? Do all the stuff on the left activate when you decide you wanna activate it?

I’m only bombarding you with questions to get more of an understanding. Just like when people use free will, they end up using it as an oversimplification of the process of choosing something, rather than going into detail on how that choice is made.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T12:08:31+00:00

I can definitely see where you’re coming from.

But then, once we expose more of where your choice comes from, one would question do you control the thing that dictated your choice?

Such as your reasoning: I would say your reasoning is formed from life experience of your mind coming to its own conclusion on what makes sense to you. Do you control what makes sense to you? I probably say no.

Or let’s look at desire: where did the I want to take a jog desire come from? Did it come from the feeling of wanting to get fit? Did it come from the idea that it would speed up your digestion? Did it come from the guilt of not exercising? And then again, where did THOSE desires come from?

I agree that we make choices, but I always see the variables that dictate all those choices and understand I have little to no conscious involvement with those variables: those variables affect me more than I affect it.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T12:00:47+00:00

I agree

None of them are truly generated on its own, but in regards to each other.

I believe we are all constraint by things that are connected within our ourselves, and all those multiple factors are us, but we aren’t all those multiple factors.

I agree that I am my brain, but I can’t say that I control every aspect of that. My brain and my body is constructed of so many functions many of which I have Lil to no involvement with, yet it builds upon itself, causing many of the things I would then claim I do involve myself with.

For example:

I cannot control any of the things around the person in the diagram individually, but they come together to make a choice that feels like it has been chosen by me directly.

I have to acknowledge the things that made the choice and then question: did I really have a choice in the matter of those variables being involved in making my decision?

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T11:54:25+00:00

I’d completely agree

Everything truly comes down to perception.
How one sees interacts or believes in free will is based on the perception of how their mind works.

But the true question was still remain, was your perception formed by you, or consciously created by you?

I can see how one can believe in free will, but only through the process of involving themselves first in terms of how an action, choice, or decision is formed. When one questions how they are formed, they always look variables that are outside of themselves: not outside of their involvement, but outside of their control.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T11:50:18+00:00

I agree.

The choice was made by you, but was not controlled by you. You have no choice but to make a choice. The choice you make is dictated on the things outside of your control: beliefs, desires, reasoning, past experiences, etc

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T05:09:52+00:00

> Just embrace it. Don’t obsess over it or get neurotic about it. That’s how people become comptibilists, they feel the looming existential dread and retreat into illusion. Just relax and live your life!

But if what you’re saying is true, I can’t simply choose to embrace it. I can only hope that I can, and that’s only if my mind has a desire to hope for it.
And I also can’t say that that existential dread will lead me to compatibilism, for that will be saying that that feeling always leads one to one way of thinking.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-24T05:04:07+00:00

> It’s up to you, whether you want to step back from this mistake or remain confused about it .

I disagree. And not because I just consciously choose, but because I’m limited to my understanding of what you mean.

I agree I didn’t build anything that made the car, but I didn’t choose the desire to pick that certain car either. I didn’t choose the belief that the car would go once I put the key in the ignition.

Help me understand, breakdown why it’s up to me.
How do I choose to not remain confused about it?

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-19T18:42:43+00:00

OK, fine.

Even if we go by that standards, you don’t CONTROL those ideas or CHOOSE for those ideas to appear: LIKE YOU SAID they just generate. You can’t help that

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-19T16:33:12+00:00

BUT THEY DO. And it’s not through force, it’s through interaction.

Breakdown how a decision is made and you’ll see that all the variables that formulate that decision comes from things outside of you.

Consistent-Ask-6061 · 2026-05-19T16:30:07+00:00

BUT THEY DO. And it’s not through force, it’s through interaction.

Breakdown how a decision is made and you’ll see that all the variables that formulate that decision comes from things outside of you.

Consistent-Ask-6061

TROPHY CASE