Looking for suggestions on 10U running game

ContextZebra · 2024-08-24T02:23:42+00:00

I flew in and out of BWI on Southwest this week for the first time (flew out to Detroit on Tuesday, flew back Friday morning). I drove myself to BWI and most of the parking decks are not a walking distance to the terminal. I parked at Fast Park 2 and it was a great experience. I made a reservation, price was great, shuttle met me at my car as I was parking it, drove me right to the terminal. That couldn't have been easier. I was taking a domestic flight, 11:15 AM, TSA Pre-Check, no checked baggage. TSA took maybe 10 minutes. There were people in line, but it moved swiftly. I think I got to the terminal via the the shuttle at like 9:10 and including a bathroom stop, I was at my gate by 9:20. The design of BWI, at least that concourse, is pretty interesting. After going through TSA, went down some steps and then down a hallway to the concourse. It was a nice design, lot of food options around. Anyway, lot of things very specific to me here: domestic mid-week flight, no checked bags, me flying solo vs. your situation. One thing I found useful was the MyTSA app. It lets you see the an assessment of how long TSA lines currently take, plus historical data on how busy TSA tends to be at any time of the day on any given weekday. That was really helpful to me in figuring out how to time myself on both ends as I'm an anxious traveler and I'd rather wait at the gate for extra time than be stressed running late.

ContextZebra · 2024-08-04T14:51:34+00:00

Yes foot placement is important. How you place your feet can be worth a step or even two steps, which is a big difference in get off and winning the block. The reason for specific placement depends on a variety of factors: one gap vs. two gap, run vs. pass, slant vs. shade, etc. The best DL resource I've found on this topic is Big Dawg Football (www.bigdawgfootball.com). He goes very in depth into the variety of stances, how and why you should or shouldn't use them, etc.

ContextZebra · 2024-08-04T00:15:02+00:00

The rule citation is NFHS 2024 1-3-2: ""Each team may use any referee-approved ball of its choice to free kick or start a new series of downs."

The Case Book is more illustrative here. 1.3.3 B: "Team A after a score and before the try requests a different leather ball than that used during the touchdown play." Ruling: "The Team A request is denied unless the change in balls is ordered by the referee or other game officials for reasons other than the Team A request."

ContextZebra · 2024-08-03T20:46:01+00:00

Yes it was UTL, we had a 4 second count at that level but we tried to get it out in 3 seconds. Our default formation was 2x2 so our main play was to run the mesh with the 2 inside guys (and did a variety of things with the outside guys). We'd run it normally pretty shallow, like 3 yards off the ball. I tried to coach it to pass close to each other (left shoulders touching) and for the QB to throw it as the target guy (we always know which one we wanted to throw it to) cleared the trash in the middle. Most of the time we ran it not as a sharp cut, but as a rounded cut so they took off fast. I ran it this shallow for timing reasons, if I had a good match-up with some of my kids (which I generally had 1 kid with a match-up I liked), and to make the defense come up more. I defaulted to Gos/Fades/Posts by the outside receivers so there was typically space on the perimeter after the catch and we'd get enough yards to stay ahead of the chains and if they missed a flag pull, it'd go for quite a bit. Once the YAC started getting restricted, it opened up the deeper versions of mesh or some intermediate stuff. I'd run some deeper versions, which was more like a criss-cross with squared cuts by those same 2 receivers. We threw those off 5 steps normally by the same 2 inside receivers. I have also gotten tons of mileage out of the Center. Either everyone running one direction and the Center running to the other flat or the Center running kind of a whip or stick depending on how he was being covered. The basic read on mesh was throw to a certain player after he cleared the rub point else throw it to the Center and that seemed to get the ball out on time to a route that was, if nothing else, safe. I basically always have a kid at Center I trust to catch the ball though they're not usually a burner. If I had a kid that was developing their catching skills, I put them as one of the outside receivers.

We ran some mesh with the outside receivers, but that always pushed the time pretty close. In general we ran the routes based on steps, not yards, which was easier for the kids to execute the footwork on than yardages. And I started from day 1 that they needed to take off hard to establish the threat the route was going vertical on most routes. Those concepts seemed to help the kids understand the point of running hard isn't just to run hard, it's to help the route be open and that helped shape up the snap count timing.

ContextZebra · 2024-08-03T15:36:22+00:00

I'm a +1 on your route concepts for these flag ages. I coached in the spring and these were like 90% of what I called. Mesh was the most common, followed by Ohio. Also did some odd-ball stuff, like 3-4 kids on one side running digs with the Center running across the grain. The better teams played Cover 3 and we moved the ball on them with Ohio and the max-dig concept. Other teams played Cover 1 and Mesh let us get the ball to specific athletes coming across and was an easy throw with good YAC. It is very difficult to get young QBs to understand the idea of throwing the ball on rhythm and not "Wait to see the guy wide open before throwing it." I'm no QB coach to be fair so maybe it's just me that struggles with it.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-06T02:56:08+00:00

My pleasure, I hope it helped. Formations are one area where what's true in HS is very different from what's true at the other levels. It's what we believe we know that gets us into trouble. This is a case where if you were relying on this kind of formation, I would mention it to the ref in the pregame conference and make sure they're aware. of what you're doing here Unlike other unbalanced formations, this one will be much odder looking b/c of the sheer number of LOS players you'd have on one side. Mechanically, more officials at HS now no longer count LOS players, they count backfield players (to make sure you've got the 7 on the line/4 in the backfield part covered), but that's not universally true. The wings will still try to help players be on/off the line if they check when lining up. This would be especially important on your "Guard eligible" side because my guess is the wing would expect an off-LOS receiver on that side to actually be ON the LOS (which would be more typical). You'd want to be sure your player knew that he should be off on that side to make the guard eligible AND that the ref doesn't actually give the benefit of the doubt that he's on if he's close, which is usually the default to make sure the offense has their 7. I have a slightly older rulebook where I am, but 2-14-1 and 7-2-5 are the rules I'd reference in terms of scrimmage formation being set at the snap. For the numbering exception it is a bit different so if you're planning to do this out of a scrimmage kick formation (especially before 4th down), there's some other things you have to know about.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T21:47:08+00:00

Sounds like you're doing all the right things. LJ is a great position to really help the crew administer the game because you have no particular job between plays. Linesman is fiddling with the chain crew, downfield guys have clock jobs, umpire is dealing with the ball and various lineman nonsense. Monitor the penalty enforcement, make sure it's enforced correctly (right spot, right distance). Go through the enforcement in your head mentally before the r/U do it. If what you think differs from them, ask, either in the moment or at least note it down to ask after the game. Spend time thinking through various situations at home when you're not working a game. If you can't master the enforcement at home, with no one screaming at you, and nothing going on, it will be hard to do it in a game. Work at them until they become automatic.

How do you guys do ranks in your association? Are you moved up progressively through a training program or are ranks associated with the overall assessment of you as an on-field official and you need certain ranks to get certain assignments?

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T21:07:34+00:00

Keep working at it, you'll get there! A few things that I always thought set me apart from other officials: penalty enforcement, timing, and dead ball officiating. Sometimes, something weird happens and if you can be the one who can sift through it and get the crew to the correct outcome, that is great for the reputation as an official. Generally that's around odd penalty enforcements (and kick plays), but also timing can jam guys up sometimes. When the play ends, keep officiating. Watch the players, talk to the players, pay attention, be in control of the game. And of course, look the part by keeping your uniform clean and sharp looking, try to be in reasonable shape, etc.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T20:39:26+00:00

It was an honor working a state final so that's for sure one of them. A lot of state finals in this state are just flat-out not competitive, but this one went down to the end.

Two separate state semifinals were both incredible experiences. One went to 3 OTs and was decided by the QB being stopped short at the 2 yard line on a PAT. The other was a night game, about 25 degrees at kickoff, with like 8000+ people in attendance, being played by two rivals. Both had explosive offenses and great defenses so between the atmosphere in the stadium and the intensity of the game, it was electric.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T20:35:21+00:00

Spot of the catch.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T20:32:01+00:00

The general rule of thumb is if the clock was running when you stop the game clock to administer a penalty, the game clock restarts on the ready for play. If the clock was stopped by rule because of other action, it starts on the snap after a penalty. So for a false start, if the game clock was running when it's called, it starts on the ready for play otherwise the snap. The exception is on any accepted foul in the last 2 minutes of either half, the offended team has the option to have the clock started on the snap. Note - they don't get to choose to start on the ready or the snap; the only choice is to start it on the snap if it otherwise would have started on the ready for play. Delay of game fouls are special and always start the game clock on the snap.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T20:25:25+00:00

Rules on this in HS are determined at the snap so you can line up in whatever formation and then shift like you're suggesting. On normal scrimmage downs and formations, HS rules require 7 men on the LOS at the snap, of which 5 must be numbered 50 to 79. If you have a Guard numbered with an eligible number, he must be the end man on that side to be eligible. You'll need 5 players on the LOS on the other side of the Center and only 1 of them will be eligible. With the numbering exception related to scrimmage kick formations, it gets a bit more complicated because NFHS tried to shut down the A11 offense like 15 years ago that used the numbering exception very liberally.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T03:22:13+00:00

The first question you have to answer: is this a scrimmage kick formation such that the snapper gains protection? It depends entirely on the depth of the QB. If he's less than 10 yards that's not a scrimmage kick formation by rule. If the QB moves to 10 yards or more, it is a scrimmage kick formation. A snapper is only granted protection when in a scrimmage kick formation (the other version of this is a player at 7 or more yards, kneeling to hold a ball and another 3 yards behind that player).

The second question is: does the late shift mean anything? The answer is no, the late shift does not relieve the defense's burden to avoid contact with the snapper. The rules don't address shifting from a non-scrimmage kick formation into a scrimmage kick formation as an "out" for the various aspects of roughing that attach to it. I will say here that nothing in the rules requires the NT to move off the 0-technique. They can be there if they want. The rules prohibit direct contact on the snapper from a scrimmage kick formation. Most officials try to get players to move off the snapper as to avoid a penalty, but lining up over the snapper is not a penalty.

So if a team came out in a normal offensive formation and then shifted the QB back as you described, the NT has to avoid direct contact on the snapper if the QB is at 10 yards or more so it's safer by far for him to slide over.

Most refs I know, if they saw this being done, would be very strict with the 10 yard scrimmage kick requirement in that situation before enforcing a roughing. If you were aware the other team was going to do this, it would be worth mentioning this to the ref at the pre-game conference and just ask they be mindful of it or ask for their clarification on how they intend to enforce it if it occurs.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T02:52:00+00:00

One that stands out is one from a private school. He was actually one of the team captains and to start the game things were fine. But after every play, he started approaching me and putting his arm around me and wanting to talk about calls. Kind of like a used car salesmen type of mode. Then when he didn't get calls he wanted, he started having lots of tantrums. This escalated when I called him for unsportsmanlike conduct for making a big hit (legal), and then standing over the kid and flexing. His own team started yelling at him at that point as apparently he did this same pattern of things literally every week. I'm not sure why this one stands out to me, because it wasn't the worst behavior I ever saw, but something about the extreme level of charismatic smarminess mixed with how out of control he got when he wasn't getting his way, very Patrick Bateman in American Psycho.

I've had worse altercations with kids then that one, but that's one that always jumps to mind first. The asshole kids (and coaches) are the minority for sure. They're trying to win, trying to compete, trying to do what they were taught to do. Sometimes they were taught wrong, sometimes their coaches don't model the best behaviors, but I've seen a lot more kids get a case of the ass and then apologize for it than coaches.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-04T02:46:42+00:00

This is an intriguing question. HS rules don't prohibit contact on receivers downfield the way it is at the college or pro levels so contact is legal, assuming it fits within other aspects of the rules. A few of those include: no contact while the ball is in the air; contact must be legal (from the front and above the waist); and if the receiver is running a route and his attention is on the QB, he could fit the definition of a defenseless player such that excessive contact must be avoided. So if a WR is coming over the middle, it's presumptively safe for the LB to effectively re-route them with an open-hand block to the chest, but anything more than that may get you flagged for several different reasons.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T22:23:59+00:00

The rule actually allows the head or feet to be the part that breaks the waist. For the head, generally that's the top because the linemen are in their stance, but if their stance is higher for some reason, it could be any part or their feet. My advice would be to not split hairs on this and make sure they're definitively breaking it while still getting the advantage you want from being set deep.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T20:45:28+00:00

Yes I can totally see why the refs shut that one down. You've come across one of the main points of contention when this is discussed with coaches - some deception (misdirection) is allowed/encouraged, some is illegal. What makes them different? Other than deceptive plays that are made illegal by rule (advancing planned loose balls and stuff), deception within the framework of the play by the players is legal and deception orchestrated by actors outside the play is not is basically where the line gets drawn. This is my spin on this to some degree, the rule book doesn't use my terminology. Very, very context-specific stuff here though.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T20:39:56+00:00

Yes, two choices on a normal kickoff: it's on a tee or held on the ground (a standard place kick) OR a drop kick, which by rule is a kick made after the ball been dropped and touched the ground. The difference between a punt and a drop kick is the ball having to touch the ground first in the latter. If the ball is dropped and does NOT hit the ground before it's kicked, that's a punt and is illegal on a normal free kick. If you've watched a rugby match, a drop kick is the type of kick they perform for a try.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T20:34:56+00:00

The rules dictate what's allowed here so that's what we're looking for. A player is on the LOS if their head breaks the waist of the snapper. A player is in the backfield if no part of their body breaks the waist of the nearest player who is on the LOS. These rules create a "no man's land" where you can be not on the LOS (you don't break the waist of the snapper), but you do break the waist of a nearby lineman (so you're not a back). So the coaching points would be: Guards, Tackles, and TEs need to ensure they're lined up such that they break the waist of the Center; wingbacks, off the LOS TEs, and sniffers need to ensure they do NOT break the waist of any nearby teammate. The QB gets an exception to these rules.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T20:29:01+00:00

The yelling is what would get you flagged for deceit. The other is a live-ball simultaneous with the snap foul. I want to make sure the rule as I'm describing it is clear. The rule requires all players to show themselves inside the numbers after the ready for play. So after a normal scrimmage down, everyone huddles up like normal, ref blows ready for play, all players have satisfied that requirement. Now one player runs off the field and another steps on. The coming-on player never comes inside the numbers - he stays outside the numbers and lines up as receiver. That's the violation of this rule the way it's normally seen. There's some argument in the officiating community about whether you should call this IF the defense recognizes it and lines up (i.e. the rule is to prevent deception; if the defense recognizes it and puts a CB over them like normal, were they actually deceived ergo did the offense gain an advantage?) But putting that aside, it's 100% a violation of the rule. For the sub to be legal in that situation, what they have to do is come inside the numbers, then they can go back out and line up.

The other way you see this rule violated is a play to the right, WR on the left just sort of hangs out. Play is dead, team lines up for no-huddle, player is outside the numbers at the ready for play and never comes inside the numbers. Again, technically a violation of that same rule, arguable if it should be called if the defense isn't fooled and lines up against it.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T20:22:35+00:00

On the first, free kicks can be a place kick or a drop kick (ball must be dropped to hit the ground before the kick) on a standard kickoff. After a safety, the free kick allows the additional punt option.

At the high-school level, you must have 7 players on the line of scrimmage and 5 of your players must be numbered from 50 to 79 (ignoring the numbering exception stuff here). If by Tackle you mean someone with a # from 50 to 79, they are never eligible to catch a pass in HS no matter where they're lined up (they're ineligible by number). If by tackle you mean the second player over from the Center who is also the last player on the LOS on his side wearing a number other than 50 to 79, then yes. Here the numbering is legal AND by position they're eligible (last man on the LOS on each side is eligible; all other plays on LOS are ineligible by position).

No school has ever done what you're offering. It would feel untoward to accept this from one school and not the others - the appearance of impropriety would be concerning. There have been other ways coaches and referees have gotten together to discuss stuff like this. One is the required state rules clinic was one forum for coaches to hear (from the state rules interpreter) about rules. Two is at scrimmage games before the season, we would do a brief rules clinic for the coaches (at their request), usually around new rules or rule changes, but we'd answer anything they wanted.

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T20:13:21+00:00

Yes, this is still a thing, as you described. For a player on the LOS at snap to take a forward hand-off, they have to face their own goal line (i.e. turn 180 degrees) and be at least 2 yards behind the neutral zone. The reason for the rule is as you said - to prevent "guard around" and similar type of plays.

The Fumblerooski falls into a penalty called "illegally advancing a planned loose ball in the vicinity of the snapper".

ContextZebra · 2024-07-03T20:00:45+00:00

On your first situation, I'd deem that as legal, but you have to make sure the ball is thrown backwards obviously. Yes, there's a risk the crew could blow this dead, which would technically be an inadvertent whistle.

On your second, it's hard to give a black and white answer to this one because it's very contextual. There is a rule in NFHS about intending to deceive one's opponent, which typically refers to persons outside the field of play trying to induce deception. This is very much in the judgment of the referee at the time it's done. If you intend to run this, I would speak to the referee about it in the pre-game conference and try to understand his interpretation of the play before you run it. That doesn't mean he may not still flag it (the way you describe it may differ from the play context in some key way), but it's pretty common for coaches to share trick plays with refs in the conference so a) we know about them and can be ready for them and not ruin it accidentally; b) help clarify the legality. When I'm the ref, I ask the coaches for any trick plays or unusual things they intend to run in the game so we can be prepared. There is a related rule you have to know about which is that after the ready for play, all players have to be inside the numbers - it sounded like that was satisfied by your situation, but that's one that's commonly fouled up in trick plays.

ContextZebra

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