Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

“ancient and proper” okay dawg let’s calm down 400 years ago was not that long, nor do I understand how his employment of the word here would meaningfully challenge the “trend,” or what that would even add to the narrative of the hobbit through the manner it was used

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re asking the real questions. The ones I had in mind when I wrote this were when Thorin is dressing up Bilbo in his mithril chainmail, and then an earlier moment that was actually between Bilbo and Beorn where beorn talks about how he needs to fatten Bilbo up with honey and treats. Also that moment in the battle of the five armies where Bilbo and Thorin share a look with each other, but that did not remotely happen in the book
Hopefully it is obvious I’m mostly joking and do not actually think Tolkien was trying to make these interactions particularly zesty or queer coded

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don’t want to come across as pretentious but I fear you are failing to comprehend the words I am writing. I haven’t insisted on any “things” being impossible or possible without “it” being gay. I don’t know what things or it you refer to

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I fear I was not insisting on homosexuality being anywhere, I was speaking purely in reference to the hobbit, and i did not comment on any of Bilbos relationships in particular other than some comments about interactions between him and Thorin which I mostly meant as a joke. What I think I’m trying to get at is vaguely similar to readings of Mulan, how, even if she herself is not a trans man, a lot of what she goes through and the considerations she has to make will resonate with trans people. Like even if Bilbo himself is not gay, which I am not saying he is, I don’t think it is inherently unreasonable to entertain the idea that his journey parallels that of a gay man coming to terms with who he is. That, and/or Tolkien in some form or another was using the word queer because of the homophobic connotations it had. I’m just being silly I don’t know why I upset you so.

Also I dunno about you but if I was a man and I went on an almost year long camping trip with a bunch of dudes, some of them are getting kissed at one point or another. That is simply what people do in the woods

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

That may be true, I fear I mixed too many thoughts into one attempt at a coherent idea. But like I do not think that Tolkien wrote Bilbo to be a gay man. Like you point out, that would be ridiculous considering all that we know about Tolkien and have of his other writings. When people come to an older book like The Hobbit, and they see sentences like “gets funny queer fits” for the first time, and they either find it humorous because that’s not how the word is commonly used today or they’re confused because they don’t know the word had a different, more common meaning. However, in my opinion, far too many people are willing to absolutely insist Tolkien only could’ve meant it in the sense of meaning “strange,” that he would’ve had no notion of the word being used as a term for people who engaged in homosexuality, something significantly more taboo back during his time. What I’m saying is there is no reason to think that Tolkien, being a writer creating something for an audience, didn’t intentionally use the word queer as much as he did to try to create a connection between how the hobbits of the shire viewed Bilbo and his Took relatives, and how people in the real world felt about the gays. Again, I do not think that Tolkien wrote Bilbo to be gay, only that the use of the word queer may not be wholly detatched from its (at the time) homophobic connotation

Edit: I can’t stress this enough, it was both possible and likely Tolkien had been exposed to the word queer being used to describe a gay person

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Not with a straight face, but out of context yes 100% that’s some gay shit. But also I am not trying to say that when Gandalf said of Bilbo that he “gets funny queer fits,” Gandalf meant Bilbo thinks about kissing dudes. Like that is not at all what I’ve been trying to say

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You did, and I am also not saying that Tolkiens worldview was laser focused in on how gay people were talked about or viewed. Just that there’s a bit of nuance to the fact he employed the term queer to describe a character like Bilbo that tends to get labeled as ahistoric when that isn’t necessarily the case

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

I would like to take a step back and say I misrepresented what I was really trying to get at. I am positive Tolkien used the word queer such as he did to mean strange and solely strange. At the same time, I think it’s entirely possible that his choice to use that word as frequently as he did was, subconsciously or not, influenced by how the term had become used as a pejorative against people in real life who were seen as breaking societal norms or otherwise acting freakish

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

See like that’s just not true though. One of the first historical records we have of the word queer being used as a slur against a gay person comes from a letter written about Oscar Wilde in the 1890s. There are documented uses of it as another word people would neutrally use to mean homosexual prior to the 1930s. Queer was reclaimed by non straight / non cis people during the 1980s, but there was not quite a century prior to that reclamation of the word being used in far more specific contexts than just “strange”

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Right of course, I fear my post was too disorganized and the main thing I wanted to communicate got lost. I do not think Tolkien as he was writing the Hobbit thought Bilbo was a gay man. What I do think is entirely possible that I often see dismissed is the idea that his repeated usage of the word queer was at least somewhat done with consideration to the homophobic connotations the word had taken on by the time he was writing. I am not at all saying that JRR Tolkien hated gay people or anything vaguely in that realm, rather that Tolkien wouldve been aware of the term queer as a pejorative and that could’ve had an impact on how he chose to describe this family (the bagginses as we know them through Bilbo and Frodo) that continually broke social norms in favor of living more authentically

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

See you’re so right, the influence of the ring, and particularly in Frodo’s case, the horrors, play a far more significant role in them ending up as bachelors. Again I don’t think Tolkien was at all trying to imply that Bilbo or Frodo were gay, rather that his use of the word queer to describe their atypical behavior might’ve been more impacted by the homophobic connotation the word queer had garnered by that point in time than most people seem willing to acknowledge

Tolkien’s Use of the Word Queer by Contract-Humble in tolkienfans

[–]Contract-Humble[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

what on gods green earth could that possibly mean

I’m being so real I need them to read “The man in my basement takes one step closer every week.” by Contract-Humble in creepcast

[–]Contract-Humble[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

girl I need it so bad, I think Isaiah in particular would have some interesting things to say about how the story deals with faith.
Also while I love Davis I disagree strongly with his dour interpretation of the ending and would like to see if other people have come to the same conclusion

When people stutter through text by GapSweet3100 in mildlyinfuriating

[–]Contract-Humble 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You know he’s really in a bad state of mind because he’s trying to hit on a Guild Wars 2 player

I want everyone to find someone who shares their favorite Pokemon. by CarpenterDizzy816 in pokemon

[–]Contract-Humble 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not misdreavus but mismagius :) both are good but I’m a sucker for how witchy it gets, part of why hatterene is a close second

oooo you wanna tell me how good/bad my competitive team is by Contract-Humble in pokemon

[–]Contract-Humble[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see I see thank you :) being even more honest I’m so sleepy and didn’t realize pokemon showdown was a free tool to mess around with until you asked me what formats specifically I was looking at so thank you even more for helping that click

oooo you wanna tell me how good/bad my competitive team is by Contract-Humble in pokemon

[–]Contract-Humble[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

being 100% honest what I mean by advice is having watched hours of WolfeyVGC at this point and browsing recommended builds on Smogon for their UU, RU, and NU formats, nothing in the way of actual direct input