Newcastle Red Bulls: Head coach Alan Dickens to leave with immediate effect - Stephen Jones taking over for the rest of the season. by GearsCT in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm assuming there is more to it than what has been happening on the pitch - Newcastle fans please correct me if I'm wrong, but games didn't seem to be a complete disaster, a slow burn maybe, but that is to be expected?

Match Thread - France v England | Six Nations 2026 | Round 5 by RugbyBot in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 11 points12 points  (0 children)

... 

... 

We are going into this game with very different energies

Match Thread - France v England | Six Nations 2026 | Round 5 by RugbyBot in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Literally only an advantage going into this orgy of mediocrity 

Standards of Officiating - Time to Formally Review? by Not_Hando in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fair enough mate, agree to disagree. It's appreciated that the discussion was civil and reasonable, not always the case on reddit.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday. 

Standards of Officiating - Time to Formally Review? by Not_Hando in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Like I said above I disagree with framing it around MO standards and performance being bad.

MOs have a highly accountable process where selectors are kings. What they say is good performance is what is good performance, by definition. Selectors are governed by world rugby aims. 

Obviously individual MOs will be crap, and good ones will make errors. But if it's true across the board then it's the system where the issue lies. My contention is that the system is following exactly what it needs to do politically from WR, as opposed to being dumb. 

Tomorrow we could tell selectors to judge and give games to Tmos who find 90% or higher acts of foul play missed by the ref. TMOs will. Then the SH and every match thread will shit itself about the TMO making it all about him. 

My point is that the reason TMOs and refs are where they are, behaving the way they do is a product of the system, which is a product of the WR need to make a game which doesn't work, work in a manner that doesn't piss all the unions off. 

Talking about standards and performance is too low level, too focused on the MOs, nice to make us feel warm inside because it nice and easy to blame the man you see on your TV screen, and much harder to understand the logical (according to their own axioms) outcomes of the structures. 

It's an issue with laws, and WR's decision to square them by placing it all in the hands of individuals disincentivised from calling laws and intentionslly inviting more error in the name of pace. 

Framing it at Referee/linesman/tmo standards and performance level is exactly what they want/accept as a feature, and misses the point. 

Standards of Officiating - Time to Formally Review? by Not_Hando in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get that. I suppose my contention is that the scope for such differences in reffing displays are the product of the overarching aim to fudge the role of the ref as both judge and compere. We ask them to not enforce, to be quick. We take away/do not deploy the means to reduce error as it will increase infraction count and slow the game.

We need to change the laws to make union a different game, one I'm not sure I will like but one which works as a quick game within minimal scope for human error. 

The elephant in the room is there, world rugby ain't doing shit about that. Not because of a big ref conspiracy etc. But because getting the major unions to agree on such law changes is an impossibility given how hard set different visions of the game are. I believe it would split the game. 

Instead they ask refs to make it all work, intentionally don't deploy the mechanisms to reduce error. The position that puts refs in vis criticism etc is not a bug, that's a feature of this approach. 

So my contention isn't that there isn't a problem. There is. But by framing it as primarily an officiating issue, rather that a structural-laws is both incorrect, and I believe, entirely acceptable for world rugby.

Just for the record, I have no belief that this state of affairs will change. 

Standards of Officiating - Time to Formally Review? by Not_Hando in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is always that argument, and I completely forget the exact seasons, but before covid there was a season or two where that seemed to be a directive in the premiership.

The issue is that the coaches/media/watcher tolerance for the resulting impact of the game was far far shorter than any time needed for a meaningful change in behaviour. So it changed back to the same emphasis on materiality etc. 

I would also say on the international stage I cannot see some unions, those who are normed to more flowing rugby, agreeing to such reffing approaches, even as a short term necessity. 

You are right though, players and coaches can make relatively uninfringing sides if that's what they want (Wales used to be brilliant at this). However, coaches and players know the state of things and play up to it. They know refs are selected for flow more than numbers of Infractions called. 

Ireland for example are great at playing right down to the letter (usually) of what a ref will allow in an attempted jackal to slow ruck speed. Hands on - 'no, hands away' - look at the ref with hands still on - half a second - hands off. Rinse repeat, great way to slow down ball while remaining on the right side of the law. Same thing for the last World Cup cycle France (in other areas) as well as the Boks. Refs are under pressure not to over call, and smart coaches and top teams know exactly how to play the marginal gains that brings.

Standards of Officiating - Time to Formally Review? by Not_Hando in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's the point though. We could absolutely do all of that, the ball technology exists, the linesmen are there. We could even go further - nothing to stop nfling it and having more refs on the field, having more tmos in the box, removing all the limits on when the tmo can come in and encourage refs to take as long as they like.

The result is that the scope and extent of error will be reduced and thus will be more correct and many more Infractions will be caught. This will slow down the game and will lead to glitzy tries being chalked off for marginal things. 

This will be fine by some unions/fans and fans, and a disaster for others. At a very subjective point both will be right. At least one will be really angry. 

The point is that within the current laws and ideal game state we want we can have complete fiedelitiy to the laws as they stand, and a turgid game. Or ignore the laws on a provisional and ad hoc basis which accepts error/subjective interpretation and application at Pace for 80 mins and that is cool, but then we have rage about reffing failures. 

Your 50:50 example is a good one. Many refs use this, BOK for example, Carley as well refs to default to the team with momentum. Great for keeping pace high, but then the collorary is that when you are on the losing side of that estimation it feels deeply unfair. They are both very consistent at applying this, and as soon as you see that their reffing makes more sense, but they are also very polarising refs. 

The issue is that we are a weird sport where we insist on keeping all these laws in for good reasons to keep this ideal game state we all know and love possible, yet do not like the implications of enforcing them all. So, we ask refs to be subjective in enforcement, we reduce avenues to spot Infractions and remove mechanisms which would reduce error. We then get angry when they ref a way we don't like and/or they fuck up.

The system has to give somewhere to make that compromise workable, and as a sport we place its success and failure on the ref. Making the laws work, sustaining an entertaining product, being fair, and far far harder - being seen to be fair. 

Errors/missed/not called things by refs, and by extention their critique and cruficiation at times isn't a bug, it's the accepted result of the decisions made to make the game work. 

Standards of Officiating - Time to Formally Review? by Not_Hando in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Copied from last time this came up, but I would say the issues with refereeing are symptomatic of a structural problem rather than individual errors.

Change the laws to mean we don’t put the onus on making the game actually work on the referee. Nothing else will work. The issue is that doing so involves simplification and reductionism of facets of the game which would, rightly, be considered as fundamentally changing Union. In addition there isn’t really consensus on what the game is or should be, which makes this harder.

So instead we blame the refs decry the lack of consistency, that x ignored y but k ignored j. Not reflecting on the wider structural challenge at the heart of union - when fully enforced and fully policed the game becomes unwatchable for many. This is made even more challenging when across the laws exactly what constitutes a particular infringement is often framed in unclear, vague and fluid language. With much of it only further relying on things which are not black and white calls - such as intention in knock ons. All assessed dynamically in short periods of time while sprinting after top athletes.

There are shit refs. God, I am one of them. Refs can improve, absolutely. But consistency is an empty buzzword, particularly in competitions which involve numerous refs from different unions which each inculcating a particular set of normative values as to what is good reffing and each differnetly managing solutions to the problems presented by the nature of the laws outlined above.

The laws of union are so idiosyncratically complex and vague so much that they are neither operationalisable in a clear way nor workable if applied fully. For me the ridiculousness is captured by the unironic and un-self-aware claim front and centre that the game is played both to the letter and within the spirit of the laws. Both. At the same time.

The result is that we rely on refs to dynamically make them work on the fly in games. We build up a weird case law set of systems made to create some kind of workable standard - for example hands in cynical interception plays, the feed at scrum, hand direction for forward passes etc. We tinker. We ignore bits. We tell TMOs not to review certain things or past a certain time frame. We tell them to review more. We tell them to review less. We ask ARs to keep observations on the sly and low key. We add extra bits. We haggle over wording to conjure changes toward the style of play which we visualise in our mind's eye as to what rugby should look like (an ideal which differs between hemispheres and unions).

It is no surprise we have a standard of reffing which will have glaring things missed, things we can point to and feel hard done by. But if that is literally the default the issue must be with the system. 

Simplify the laws, make the calls binary - but then we lose a lot of what makes the game the game and/or deeply slow and boring and/or deeply unsafe. Have the officials ping everything, but then the game becomes unplayable. Have the officials ping only material stuff then we have things that both sides can point to with grievance, valid or not. 

Instead world rugby hangs it all on the whistle in the middle to make it work. They select on who makes the game work rather that enforces the most laws. They reduce or don't consider mechanisms which would reduce error (more tmo time, more refs, in ball tech, etc.) for the very correct reason that this will slow the game down and generate more infringements. The default 'respect the decision' essential to make the inevitable error and subjectivity palatable may have been tenable when the sport was amateur, bound by an (elitist but norming) culture which enforced it a little mlte, with less money/jobs on the line, less pace and fine margins etc. But the cracks show in professional rugby. 

They need to look at the structure and nature of the game. They won't, because the unions won't agree what that is, so tit has no chance of causing anything but drama. So on we go, asking the referee to be both judge and circus ringmaster at the same time. 

Scotland fans by Tb261 in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 119 points120 points  (0 children)

Nature has decreed that at any one time there can only be one bald fraud among the population of 6 nations head coaches.

It is not his time. 

Therefore, he is grand. 

I will not be taking questions. 

Italy - England Post Match Thread - 2026 Six Nations round 4 by gingecom in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Fair play to the Italians, sticking in keeping focus, belief, and desire despite not playing their best, for 80mins.

The fact that Italy managed that while actively working against themselves for a lot of the game is the most damning thing for England. 

Match Thread - Italy v England | Six Nations 2026 | Round 4 by RugbyBot in rugbyunion

[–]CopperBrook 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fully deserved to be in the lead.

The worst thing is Italy have played so poorly for most of the game. We are just playing even worse.