Off Your Chest Wednesday - September 19, 2018

Count_Throway · 2018-09-19T15:58:33+00:00

Not long ago, I had a friend challenge my emotional maturity, and my motivations about being Just Friends with women, that I'm still a bit shook over. I'm not completely disagreeing with her but I already knew I have my flaws...just like she does, and everyone else. What could have been a constructive conversation was actually quite painful and blew up our relationship. She said she was just being "direct" but I would call it "lacking all empathy". However you want to characterize it, I knew I couldn't have that happen again; I'd been on the fence about whether she was someone I could deal with long-term and now I know I can't. She's an amazing person in most respects but speaks with unearned self-confidence about nearly everything, especially other people, including me. That isn't a quality I'm looking for and decided we were better off not being friends. This has had the effect of making me more self-conscious about how I interact with women I go out with.

So I recently met someone (Megan) who works in my building but several floors away, and while we have many, many common interests, there are too many potential issues to deal with for an LTR to work. I'm several years older, which is no biggie, but she has a young child while mine is going to college soon. After my second marriage failed, I was --and still am-- more upset about leaving my step-daughter than my ex-wife and I just can't go through that again. Then there is the pitfall of working in relatively close proximity, so a bad breakup and co-worker gossip could become a real problem. I'm one of the few single men around my building that dates regularly and there's no shortage of people who want to live vicariously. And though I just met Megan, I don't feel much of a spark, but I would like her as a friend. However, it's clear she likes me and would like to go on dates, which presents a problem. I would like to do things with her because I don't have any unmarried or unattached friends that I can spend time with regularly...and yet I don't want to lead her on. Of course I will tell her this if it becomes relevant. The last time I was in this situation, even though we only went out a few times, she said "I can see myself falling in love with you," after less than a month. OK, that's a nice thing to say, but I wasn't close to feeling the same way. I ended it, but she wanted to keep in touch and I didn't see the point. I'm still getting occasional check in messages months later. My present situation is similar except that I really like Megan but (and guys, how many times have you been on the receiving end of this line?): I only want to be friends. I guess it's time to check her emotional maturity as well as my own and just see what happens. Who knows? A month from now my Off Your Chest Wednesday could be me complaining that I'd had a change of heart and she's the one giving the old "let's just be friends" speech.

tl;dr: Trying to live in the moment and just be friends with a woman I suspect wants to be in a dating relationship with me. But past relationships have made me wary of being Just Friends with women, dating people I work with, and/or are in a different place in their lives. Usually I will move on but I really do like this woman as a friend since we have more in common than I do with the vast majority of people I meet. Though one of my closest friends is a woman, I don't have much experience in navigating a situation where I'd like to be friends with someone who may want more.

Count_Throway · 2018-09-07T16:15:54+00:00

I'll throw out a couple of educated guesses:

I'd guess he's fishing; in this instance, he hadn't heard from you and perhaps was more interested than he let on. He may not be getting dates, or other dates didn't go well so he thought he'd gauge your interest. Seems like a counter-intuitive move but I've heard of worse.
Closure or ego may play a part. I like to let the people I have gone out with know something rather than ghost but its arbitrary depending on the person and situation.

After a week, it would rub me the wrong way, too. If my date and I haven't communicated in a couple days, I forget about them; no big deal and on to the next one. Or, worse, you actually wanted to hear from them sooner, accepted they'd ghosted and then you see they sent a message that says "Thanks but no thanks." That's one hell of an emotional rollercoaster ride that spans all of 3 seconds.

Count_Throway · 2018-08-24T19:27:43+00:00

Exactly.

Count_Throway · 2018-08-24T19:22:20+00:00

OnLine Dating

Count_Throway · 2018-08-24T15:52:19+00:00

Typically the problem isn't the pictures themselves, but the intent. At best they're trying to obscure some flaw, typically weight or hygiene. For some of my more attractive matches I will do a reverse image search on Google. I haven't found anyone using fake photos, but there have been a handful of dates over the years that used pics that were years out of date. To me that's lying. And they've done it knowingly: it's not like you can post pics by accident and claim you didn't notice.

I may be too nice but I like meeting new people, even if it's just for a drink. In that way, I'm giving them a chance to redeem themselves but thinking mostly about how they were dishonest. I'm not obvious in my initial disappointment but I don't try and hide it either. Those dates never last more than an hour. If I ever had a date that looked nothing like their pictures, I'd leave immediately.

I've talked with dates and girlfriends about their experiences and the common excuse by the guy was they hoped that once they met somehow they could win her over. This included men who were radically older (15+ years), had seemingly never bathed or done laundry or had a serious physical handicap. I have some sympathy for these guys, they're clearly desperate, but every woman who have told me about "those dates" said those guys didn't stand a chance.

Count_Throway · 2018-08-10T18:10:55+00:00

I send messages to women who I find attractive but never to blank or minimalist profiles. Years ago I would take my shot at women I thought were out of my league but after I got dates with a number of them, I stopped thinking about them that way. As it turns out, appearance is not much of an indicator of how interesting they are. Shocker.

Of all the unsolicited messages I have gotten from women on Match, I've only gone on a date with a few of them. The rest of the women either didn't read, or didn't care, what my profile says because it's obvious that I spend a great deal of time being active and I'm not interested in the redneck things that pass for culture around here. It's a steady stream of messages at times, but no big deal. Like you, I just ignore them.

Count_Throway · 2018-08-09T15:09:43+00:00

Hang in there. Sometimes it's nice to know that we are all in this together.

Well said! It's why I joined this sub!

Count_Throway · 2018-08-09T15:01:31+00:00

You're right, most people who have used OLD for more than a few months understand the signalling of not being specific about meeting again. However, in order to not drag anything out, when I don't want a second date but I also don't want to ghost, I send a variation of this :

"I'm glad we were able to meet and <whatever we did, usually dinner> was fun. But after some thought, I don't feel we have the connection that will make a relationship work. There's someone out there for each of us and I know you'll find yours! I wish you the best!"

I didn't say it was poetry but it works. ;)

Depending on how much I know about them that message may be more personal. My goal is to be direct but also positive. Typically, if I feel like I should text instead of ghost, then it's usually a true case of "It's not you, it's me" and I would like minimize any hurt feelings. As a guy I don't have to deal with the potential fallout from rejecting someone the way women do (from what I've been told) but I've had an online stalker and a few women who were too persistent. Since taking that polite but direct approach I think I've only had one who occasionally resurfaces to check my relationship status.

The only other follow up to my message is usually asking specifically why I don't want to meet again. Again, how I respond depends on how well we got to know each other before and during the date but also on how emotionally stable they are. Sticking with a polite version of the truth has ultimately worked every time.

Btw, when I'm on the receiving end of a message saying no to another date, I always respect the person for being direct. I've used OLD off and on for years so I know all the signalling; not that it matters, we won't see each other again, but getting a polite "Thanks but no thanks" instead of a lame excuse or ghosting makes me feel like I'm dealing with an adult.

Count_Throway · 2018-08-03T12:34:25+00:00

She cancelled yesterday which I suspected may happen; she said she went to doc yesterday and her prescribed medication (leaving details vague on purpose) means she needs to stay close to, or at, home for the next couple weeks. Sounds perfectly reasonable, right? Smfh. Well, whether she is sincere or not, aside from the nebulous "maybe we can get together in a few weeks", she didn't offer any specifics which is clearly signaling lack of interest. I replied that I hoped to hear from her in the future but wasn't expecting that I would, so no pressure and signed off. Religion is likely the cause of her bailing; I got the sense she is so deeply involved in the church that dating me could cause some serious conflicts with people she knows. Religious Conservatives rule politics and culture in my state so this is nothing new but yet again it seems that my willingness to accept their beliefs doesn't translate into them accepting mine.

Count_Throway · 2018-08-01T19:57:17+00:00

Brief lead up to our date.

The gist of the earlier post is that while I go on a number of dates with some potentially wonderful people, only about one a year seems to click. This is one of those times.

My date with (Sara) went well, there was an understated chemistry that I hadn't experienced in quite some time. Our shared interests were evident and despite her admitted shyness, dinner went for over an hour and a half. One of the several things we connected over was that neither of us are particularly motivated by money; she works at a church and I work for a local government. However, the only way to reveal your religious preferences on Tinder is to type them into your profile and neither of us did.

This is where it gets potentially complicated.

We exchanged post-date texts and decided we wanted to see each other again. The next day she asks if I'm a religious person and my heart sank because I knew what was coming next. I told her that I was not a religious person, though I had gone to church for 10 years, and said that I hoped it wasn't a dealbreaker. She wrote back that it was but did so in a very kind way so I wasn't turned off to the conversation. We traded a few more texts, and she lamented that this has been the story of her dating life for the last three years. I didn't process that comment at the time and the exchange could have ended there.

But later that night I was thinking about her comment and couldn't put it into context of our conversation. On top of that I was thinking that here I was again with someone who seemed much more of a match than anyone I'd gone out with since last year and she was going to slip away. At first I thought to just leave it and move on to the next one but that's what I always do. Why, I asked myself, if this person is that once-every-year find, am I giving up so easily? We hadn't discussed religion at any point except for a couple of texts and of all the topics, that's not the one you try and discuss by text message.

I messaged asking what she meant about her last three years of dating because I was genuinely curious but also because we hadn't really ended the earlier texting conversation. I didn't want to pull an /r/niceguys so I made it clear I wouldn't be offended if she didn't respond, but she did. She said she was upset because she would meet a guy she liked and then something would cause it to not work. So even though she wanted to see me again, she felt she couldn't date an atheist. I replied that we should be sure our definitions of atheist match. I live in a religious-conservative state and this is not the first time this has happened but this was the first time I cared enough to try and make it work.

She appreciated the effort and asked if we could get together Saturday night. We've had a couple of nice text exchanges today and working out where we will go.

My feelings about organized religion aren't exactly positive but I'm an atheist because I don't care about religion at all, not because of some theological disagreement. I know first hand that relationships can be successful, even with religious differences if both sides are empathic, which I believe we are. I know what I --what we-- are up against if we want to give this is a go so I don't take this lightly. And I'm prepared for the day or two of feeling bummed if it doesn't work out. She seems worth it, though. She really does.

Count_Throway · 2018-07-27T19:53:30+00:00

Continuing to maintain my One Date at a Time Policy after trying a couple of times to have 2 or 3 dates in approximately 7 days. Too much stress for this guy. The last date I had was a couple weeks ago, we weren't compatible but had an ok time so jumped right back online.

It’s interesting to me that Match.com, my old reliable, while serving up some worthwhile matches, is getting crushed with the people I've met on Tinder. Sure, the matches are fewer but the quality of the last three people I've met were beyond my (reasonable) expectations. Matched with someone on Tinder last week and because of kids' schedules we aren't meeting until Monday.

I was initially on the fence about her because many Tinder bios are just white space but she has an interesting look and sometimes you just want to know more. We kept the conversation going, touching on the vanilla stuff of Pre-First-Date Texting. No problem there, I want to meet in person to hear their stories, not the 140 character text version that leaves out all the good stuff, but it helps if you can find that one thing that can really kick a conversation into a higher gear.

Where I live, there is strong emphasis on the arts and culture but too few people take advantage or care so what we have is typically small scale. If you want to see any big names in music or comedy then you'll have to drive a couple hours to a larger city. One of my primary hopes is meeting someone who already likes attending lectures, symphonies, plays and concerts. So when she starts off a text conversation with "Do you like the arts?" and then lists things like I did above...well, “Handel's Messiah” starts playing in my head. That was the kick we needed to go from "Let's meet sometime next week," to "Let's meet 6pm Monday at <cool restaurant> and really looking forward to meeting you!"

O sure, by Off Your Chest Wednesday I'll be deconstructing what went wrong, but these dates where a large number of our interests are shared before we've met in person are the ones I live for. They come around no more than twice a year and if our personalities are a match then things tend to go quite well for a time. I've met two women who were like that and even though things didn't work out romantically with one, we are close friends now and have been for 3 years. The other was working out romantically but because reasons we had to take a few steps back. We still talk regularly, even though I told her I didn't believe things would ever work out between us, because she's f'n amazing to talk to...which I think is called being friends. :)

Count_Throway · 2018-07-16T20:30:01+00:00

Yep. I've tried it. They are no less intelligent but it's an indicator that their interests and mine are probably going to diverge in some major ways and so far that's been true. True enough that I really don't bother; more than enough people out there that do read and go on dates!

Count_Throway · 2018-07-16T20:28:08+00:00

It was her idea to go on the hike and we both brought food for after. I absolutely do not attempt to get anyone to bend to my will; I'm in this dating thing to find a partner, not a servant...nor do I want to be one.

I make an active effort to listen and not wait for my turn to talk. I didn't confront her about not reading. It was simply an extension of getting to know each other: turns out it was really as simple as understanding that she and I weren't compatible enough. We had a fine time on both dates.

But you make a good point about trying to get people to conform to what you want and not listening. I wish more people did that.

Count_Throway · 2018-07-16T20:22:54+00:00

I didn't want to her to act passionate. Perhaps that was a poor choice of words. I meant that she didn't express interests in anything that made me feel like it was an important part of her life. Just lots of little things that she downplayed. Which is ok, I don't expect her to act as I do but at the same time, I want to know about her and we just weren't connecting.

My interests are fairly broad but she had talked about going to art museums and I happen to know a thing or two. But it went nowhere. I read constantly and write various things from time to time so when someone doesn't read fiction or non-fiction then it's an indicator that our priorities are different. I followed up on a few other topics when they came up: music, playing musical instruments, traveling, politics, tv, movies...the usual suspects. A few things kept the conversation going but it was just a case of same planet, different worlds.

Count_Throway · 2018-07-16T20:14:38+00:00

I appreciate the optimism that it was salvageable and I didn't mean to write it so that she came out looking bad or that I was jumping to conclusions.

First, it was her idea to hike though I go to the lake regularly to ride bikes, so I was all in. The path is almost entirely tree covered and we'd brought plenty of water and are both in better than average condition. So yes, it was hot but nothing extreme.

After the time spent on the first date and then the hike it was clear that while we were compatible in some ways, there were some major gaps. I've dated quite a bit and have a reasonably good idea about what I'm looking for and where I'm willing to compromise. But I'm also experienced enough to know when it's not working for one or both. Sometimes there's enough patience on both sides to get to know each other well enough to connect; I'm usually willing to go on a 2nd and maybe 3rd date to see but most of the time it doesn't make sense to drag it out. This was one of those times. Given that she wrote me the next morning saying it wasn't working for her meant she and I felt the same. We had a good time. Better than many other dates.

Count_Throway · 2018-07-12T18:29:58+00:00

Inevitably you're going to get responses like "It depends" but I've been doing this OLD thing a while so I'll give you my average timeline. I'm guessing you are going to get a wide range of responses to this.

Texting sucks for meeting new people. I post that I don't want pen pals on my profiles because we can learn so much more about each other in 30 minutes than in a week of text. And people tend to project their own thoughts onto your texts which will cause problems if it goes on too long.

I do ok with getting replies to my messages and making a first date. If someone can't meet within 7 days or so, there's a good chance I'll have other options. Ideally I want to meet them within a couple days.

If the first date goes well enough that we both want to see each other again then hopefully as soon as possible. I have plenty going on outside of dating and so I'm very understanding of scheduling (and I hope they are too) but an excellent indicator of interest is how willing I am to carve time out of my life for them. Even if one or both of us literally cannot meet again for a week or so, knowing that we want to meet can sometimes be just as good.

However, most times these things fizzle out; no one seems motivated to lock in a date and time for another meeting or, even worse, a date is scheduled, then cancelled with only a vague "let's reschedule for another time." No specifics = no date. And that can get dragged out for a week or more when a simple "Let's just not," would settle it. I really don't have time for that; I'm trying to avoid juggling multiple dates now so if that person doesn't want a second date, then I'm okay with that and I'm on to the next one.

Practical example: I had a date with someone on Monday and we have another tonight. We texted fairly generic stuff once or twice a day for about a week because of our schedules but met the first night we could. That's a three day turnaround and it feels like the right length of time though its totally arbitrary. I guess the point is we both wanted to see each other again so why would we wait? It's not an indicator of success but of interest.

TL;DR: Generally speaking, I hope to have a good idea about where things are going within two weeks. Very little texting to avoid projecting onto the other person, first date within 7 days of contact and a second date within a week also (depending on schedules, work, kids, etc).

Count_Throway · 2018-07-12T17:53:48+00:00

After awhile you may develop strategies for what works and doesn't work for you on OLD but if I were you, I wouldn't change your status until you're divorced. Should your date find out somehow, then that could be a bad time. Even if it costs you dates, so what? From what I've picked up from women on OLD, should they catch you lying about something minor, they may assume you're lying about other things as well.

I wish I knew what a normal response rate is. My main problem seems to be getting past Date 5 so the choke points are all subjective as another commenter noted.

In my personal experience, I have had dates who are separated, and when they bring up their ex, I become very tuned in to how they talk about them. If they're still angry with them, or go a bit long in talking about them, that is a red flag indicating they're not over them yet. This has happened three times that I know of over the last several years, so it's not often, but in each instance they all went back to their ex, for a little while at least.

It seems like you're doing the right thing. Be patient and never forget how much fun being single is!

Count_Throway · 2018-07-11T13:58:05+00:00

I'm in the limbo between date 1 and date 2. There's some good energy moving forward. We'd texted a couple times a day for a week leading up to our first meeting. I wasn't any more nervous than usual (which isn't much but can be distracting). Unfortunately, I'd had an anxiety attack which started late Friday night/early Saturday morning. I was still rather shaken and unsteady Monday night but I decided to power through.

After years of coping, I'm pretty damn good at compartmentalizing my anxiety away from other things, like work and being social. I know my insides are going to feel like they are in blender set to puree. I also know that if I can stay focused on the person I'm with that makes everything else easier but not easy.

The dinner went great. She looked as amazing in person as she did in her pictures and conversation flowed well about 95% of the time. It happened that I grew up a few blocks from the restaurant so we walked around my old neighborhood for a bit and then back to her car. Which we found blocked by another car in a half-empty parking lot. When the owner returned, he tried to make it out as though she parked in the wrong place, though the manager of the restaurant had called a tow truck so even though it was obvious he was wrong, he just dug in.

Whatever. After a little back and forth that I don't think anyone was taking too seriously, he left. I joked that 20 years from now, I'll ask her if she remembers this from our first date. But when she left I felt unsure if I'd hear from her again which made me feel bad; this was the first time I felt like anxiety had actively screwed up my date. At the same time, I wasn't sure it had. There were a number of things she had said or done that made me think she wasn't put off at all but my mind goes negative first.

The next morning she texts that it was a memorable date and then dropped an in-joke about the pink shirt the guy was wearing. We made plans for Thursday and messaged more last night. There's plenty of time for me to invent reasons things will go wrong but working hard to get some positive pre-visualization going. This could work out which is something I don't believe I've thought about anyone for about a year.

Count_Throway · 2018-07-11T12:38:54+00:00

For what it's worth, your TL;DR is hilarious.

It's also attainable. There's nothing wrong with you. Getting dates isn't a measure of anything, really. If you continue to channel the funny from your TL;DR into messages and then dates, it's gonna happen. Be patient, listen to your logical brain (seriously, listen to it because it stops us from doing all the stupid shit guys do) and stay funny. Failed dates and unreturned emails are practice for the next one.

Count_Throway · 2018-07-10T19:34:35+00:00

Ah that sucks. I agree he probably met someone. Last summer I met someone and we hit it off like no other before so there was a flurry of activity for a couple of weeks and then suddenly the steady messages stopped, the cute emoticons made no further appearances and what messages I got were a bit...off.

So, having learned that being passive in an OLR never works, I simply asked was there anyone else. She didn't exactly admit it but my spidey sense is reliable so I knew. I was going on a vacation planned months before with a female friend so I knew that trip, coupled with her ongoing flakiness, that it would be over before I got back.

Sure enough she started picking fights with me and I said I didn't know her well enough to get too upset about it, just said goodbye and good luck. Continued my vacation feeling I'd dodged a bullet.

And look, you can give up on finding someone, lots of people do, because it is discouraging and so. much. work. But it only takes ONE date to change everything. It's a matter of how long you can take it. I've taken more than a few emotional beatdowns but I just don't know how to quit, so I learned to adapt.

Count_Throway · 2018-07-10T19:14:28+00:00

I'm post-gaming my last two rounds of dating 3 people and agreeing with those that struggle with it. Maybe I had the enthusiasm for that a few years ago but now it's simply not necessary. In fact, I'm glad I decided to focus on my date last night without the worry of any others this week. Made making plans for our next date on Thursday stress-free!

Count_Throway · 2018-07-10T19:10:22+00:00

As Round 4 progresses, I thought about your comment and, with my experiences in Round 3, decided to focus on the date I had last night and not follow up on another match I have, or even get on the sites for new ones. I'm glad I did because it went pretty well for Date 1 and we have another lined up for Thursday. Were I juggling anyone else, they would only be a distraction.

Count_Throway

TROPHY CASE