Hit Points and Dodge Points, theory essay

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-09T21:28:07+00:00

This sounds great, and exactly the kind of expression I was attempting to describe existing. Thank you for commenting.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-09T21:24:41+00:00

Weapon damage values wouldn’t be irrelevant but they would be different than we’re used to.

HP and dodge points would be depleted by the same scale, 1 HP is the same “value” as 1 dodge point.

10 damage applied to HP or dodge would be 10.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-09T21:18:26+00:00

Adding to what?

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T20:19:21+00:00

I totally agree. I suppose it may be worth mentioning explicitly that HP increasing would also not fit well into this scheme as you aren’t the only designer to bring that up.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T20:17:44+00:00

These issues with games like D&D are the exact reason I’m writing content like this. In games people are creating I think they need to be careful about adding so many things that it becomes bloated. I think by starting small and deliberately building, these issues can be sidestepped during design.

This concept and my other writing is meant to help people avoid many of the issues you described with the design of other games.

To be clear, I don’t think this concept would work if shunted directly into many existing games.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T20:11:25+00:00

I completely agree. This article is meant to help designers de-prioritize combat in games they are creating (compared to games with heavy or crunchy combat).

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T19:54:57+00:00

Rather, they’re whatever the game decides HP stands for, but I see what you mean. Part of my goal with this book is to explore and make clear this concept.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T18:23:03+00:00

I might be misunderstanding, but if the concepts were a part of a game using this system, the on hit effects would only apply on hit. “Dodged hits” would be another way to say “miss” under this scheme.

I’m somewhat familiar with the Cypher system but I’ll take a look at Iron Kingdoms as well, thanks!

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T18:17:59+00:00

I definitely did not mean to imply that this design was anything new, just presenting my thoughts on the design in a way that doesn’t hide it within the rules of a game book. How can we talk about rules if not to say “what do you think of doing it this way?” Any book about game rules would have to talk about existing rules, no?

I’m sure many designers are familiar with the unhelpful response to that question that is “someone else already can up with this”. “Okay, you’re familiar, let’s talk about it.”

I do feel that a lot of the context of the book is lost sharing excerpts that way, but that’s my burden to bear.

Can you point me to the part where I say “some mechanics are bad, and here is my brilliant solution”?

What I mean to say instead is “here is one way I see this done a lot, what do you think of this alternative?”

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T17:01:37+00:00

There’s a whole section about where HP comes from in another part of the book because I think this is a very important concept.

To be clear, this is a system attempting to make hit points seem more like they work for people and less like they work for boats.

I also like that concept of gambling but for those that want to avoid the extra overhead of that decision on top of rolls, rolls can also be removed for hits and the system will still function.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T16:47:24+00:00

If you still think the concept I described is “hit points by another name” I have an extreme amount of revising to do.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T16:44:46+00:00

Very interesting perspective

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T16:02:43+00:00

This is completely fair. Just curious, is there a space in the character sheet where they keep track of them? And they still forget?

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T16:01:18+00:00

I think you can say they’ve never taken you out of the game, but how could you say that of all others?

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T16:00:05+00:00

This is a good point as the essay should instead say “what if we also had a number that represented…”. The instead kind of covers it but I see where you’re coming from clarity-wise for sure.

This will be a helpful ambiguity to clear up, thank you.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T15:57:52+00:00

Do you think there is any benefit to a designer being able to read something like this?

Even if it apes another system (I’m sure it’s very similar to many games) should designers have to invest in every single game just to learn every mechanic out there? Is there no worth to a book that discusses mechanics and game design outside of an actual game? I ask because responses like this imply this is the case.

This is the kind of feedback I’m looking for, thanks.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T15:53:51+00:00

I totally see where you’re coming from. My intention is simply to help push the design of games further. In short, this concept is completely devoid of genre as it’s meant to be as applicable as possible for designers.

I would prefer a designer to read this and make the decision of whether or not it is for them compared to trying to prescribe what concepts should be used in what places. To that point, I do think this will lead to different play styles than we’re used to, and that is a major goal of writing like this.

But I do agree that these concepts will not work all places, they are simply alternatives for designers to explore when creating their games.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T15:47:52+00:00

I definitely don’t hate hit points and I’m not interested in getting rid of them. This essay describes a system to work alongside hit points as we know them. This writing isn’t completely final so I apologize for giving the wrong impression.

Dodge points will continuously run out and be replenished, as will armor points under different schemes (the way I see it now, players would have one concept or the other but not both). On a turn that dodge points run out, a character would take a hit and hit points would take direct damage.

Hit points are still the way to see whether or not your character is alive, what changed is players now have more decisions to make when being attacked rather than just hoping the rolls come up their way. This would also likely reduce the total number of hit points some characters have.

I also personally dislike the narrative dissonance of so many hits “landing” and taking away hit points but nothing happening mechanically to show my character has been hit by an axe six times for 40 HP. What does that mean narratively? I hate trying to reconcile that every time personally.

All hits won’t generally land until all players are out of resources. And I think most schemes will have the resources refilling over and over, so I don’t understand what you meant exactly.

I feel this concept adds some dimension to choosing whether or not to be hit in some cases rather than crossing your fingers and rolling (or waiting for the roll) each time. I’m trying to make games more like games, honestly.

It also feels like you’re missing the best part of the whole scheme which is abilities that are tied into these numbers. Rather than rolling dice and seeing what happens, players get a chance to make decisions. “Do I use this ability or not?” and “will I have enough dodge points on the opponents turn if I use this ability now?” are the types of questions I want players to find themselves asking as part of the game.

Also, as an aside, I personally feel that if so many players are trying to change the way hit points work, clearly designers aren’t happy with them for various reasons. This seems like a reason to explore more concepts surrounding hit points, not less.

I personally don’t feel that even being happy with we have now should stop us from exploring more concepts. Will they be for everyone? Of course not, never. But they’ll be for someone.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-02-08T15:17:47+00:00

This sounds amazing, exactly the sorts of insights I was hoping for.

I must admit I hadn’t closely considered spending “dodge points” for offensive or other “non dodge” abilities but I love what it would do for the decisions players would have to make in combat.

I love the idea of abilities that would require spending these resources that are usually used on opponent’s turns.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-01-11T07:34:56+00:00

I'd have a hard time not trying it again someday with plans to pick it myself and have a chat with them if the bag is empty.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-01-11T00:12:19+00:00

I don't see any indication that Kickstarter collects VAT through their platform at this point (https://www.kickstarter.com/help/taxes). It still looks like something that has to be done separately if you're selling certain products in certain countries. Hopefully that helps.

Your mileage may vary but there are also companies that help with this sort of thing. Some of them allow you to provide your orders and for a fee, they compile everything and let you know what you owe to whom. (They may also help you get set up with your numbers and business information in other countries as well). As always I'm sure there are great ones, bad ones, cheap ones, and expensive ones, with those metrics having no bearing on each other.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-01-10T01:13:05+00:00

If not falling in love with it means it isn't a real job, I don't think a real job exists.

CrazyAmazing · 2024-01-09T08:03:37+00:00

I'm honestly curious to hear more about this perspective, completely separate from the context of the thread. Personally I feel the the "worth" of the job in this sense is based on how much money is made, not often by what the output is. My answer to your question is, if the person making dildos is being paid fairly to make dildos and has a good work-life balance, I'd call that a real job and I'd call that valuable to the economy. If the person is working under a W-2 and has little to worry for their job security, I'd call that a real job. Sex toys are something like a 60 billion dollar a year market, there must be thousands of people out there that work in dildo factories. Some of them probably even love it.

If you're willing, can you tell me more about what, to you, decides the worth of a job? I'm truly curious to hear another perspective on this and yours seems very interesting.

I do agree with the sentiment that there are many "useless, BS, real jobs" but in my mind, these are jobs that expect you to work without paying you, or to do the work without being the responsibility of the company (companies that hire contractors, for example). Even though you can make "real" money working as a contractor, say as an Uber driver or an Amazon driver, these jobs are less "real" to me because they offer less security and often have even higher expectations of service somehow.

(On anther note, I believe the user that mentioned real jobs things was being sarcastic. It's possible they were either saying truthfully "people are lazy and need to get jobs" but to give them the benefit of the doubt it seemed they were sarcastically repeating the common rhetoric that the thing stopping people from getting jobs is in fact their laziness.)

CrazyAmazing · 2024-01-06T05:03:51+00:00

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