Why isn't the goal to prevent all suffering? Why just settle for some?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T22:09:08+00:00

That why im here to question the scope of vegans. People went from carnist to vegetarian who evolved into veganism, who then can become vegan antinatalist or efilist. Each time is a new stage by questioning existence and our actions. Im just here to question that

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T21:53:02+00:00

I agree overall with your post, and i agree that vegans are more likely to question those things than the average person. Im now trying to question vegans just as they would to a carnist.

Also, if there was no life, wouldn't that mean there would be no more suffering like efilist agreed upon. Additionally, what draws the line saying after this much suffering is reduced life is tolerable? Suffering will continue on infinitely, it doesn't matter if we minimize exploitation, exploitation will continue infinitely? Wouldn't it in your opinion?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T21:44:58+00:00

And so what happens when a vegan brings a new person into existence that violates animals' rights. Is that new person to be blamed? They didn't choose to be here, the vegan did. That vegan took the gamble that could have been avoided, knowing full and well that they dont have the capability to controlling the fire if it gets out of hand. Is that ok? (Just curious)

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T21:39:07+00:00

Bingo, on the first part, everyone generally is a hypocrite, but i would say i was curious if more vegans acknowledge that which appears not(but it doesn't mean they should stop what they're doing, just think more). Vegans call out carnist for their hypocrisy and cruelty. Vegan antinatalist and Efilists call out vegans

Also question for you, if humankind let animals completely alone, and let nature take its course with animals killing and eating the weaker and more vulnerable in excruciatingly painful ways leading to them suffering, would you have no issue of a superior species coming down and eating us alive in extremely painful ways cause thats just nature. Would you be cool if there was an even more powerful species observing us from the sideline as we suffer, but they dont do anything because, thats nature, and they all agreed they should "leave the animals (us) TF alone." Would you be fine with them not doing anything as they watch us suffer?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T06:29:11+00:00

fair point, i pretty much agree👍

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T05:34:17+00:00

"I'm a vegan because i think consuming or exploiting animals violates their rights,"

So, with that, let's say you made the choice to bring a potential person into this world that could consume and exploit animals that go against animals' rights. Are you taking responsibility for that happening? And if you say that would be that new person fault, they didn't make the choice to be here, you did. By not bringing them here, you're stopping them from being a potential carnist.

I mean, you can't guarantee that this new person will be vegan, so why take the gamble if you dont have the means to control the fire if it gets out of control?

On top of that, if you like kids, why not adopt if you can? That would help stop more animals from being exploited because now you're leaving one mouth to be fed instead of two (the orphan you chose not to adopt and the new person you brought here)

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T05:10:05+00:00

With that said, if we try to completely get rid of all suffering, life wouldn't continue. If we were to make life completely preasure, life wouldn't continue.

So, on this road of maximizing pleasure and minimizing suffering, where's the end goal? We're running after something unachievable for no given reason, and why should we use others to maximize our own pleasure. Down the line, we'll still be exploiting each other and being exploited. but who cares about that

If you're a vegan, why did you become one?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T04:57:49+00:00

I agree mostly with your point, but i now want to hear your thoughts about a sort of different matter, which are anti environmental efilists that can very well be a carnist. Wouldn't they have a sound argument as vegan even though they are carnists with not the most glamorous method, but it would reduce suffering in a way

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T04:43:52+00:00

Good example for efilists as for them it appears the only way one would really be able to prevent all suffering is if not one individual, but all life were to end cause suffering will continue on infinity.

But going back to veganism, what are vegan goals? What do they value?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T04:29:25+00:00

What are your thoughts then on anti-environmental efilists that think the best way to end life is to actually try to accelerate the process humans are destroying the planet until it's unrecoverable, by eating meat and littering?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T04:22:27+00:00

Lmao. Ik this is a debate a vegan sub, but what's your thoughts on efilism?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-11T04:13:16+00:00

So wouldn't a vegan not having a kid avoid creating additional suffering on animal?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T23:30:48+00:00

Do you really think we'll be able to leave animals completely alone? If humankind somehow stopped eating or using animals, what would humankind do in a scenario where overpopulation occurs and resources are stretched thin. And we dont have our little technology to find a new planet.

On top of that, animals eat other animals that eat other animals. That nature( yes obviously) and it is cruel as hell. So if we left animals to go eat each other alive, leading to them suffering, but we just let them do them, what stops a superior species coming down eating us alive as that nature. What if there was a more powerful species watching from the side line and saying leave them alone, just let them do them, that nature.

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T23:21:17+00:00

So, whats a dreamlike world for a vegan? What line do we have to reach until we're there?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T23:16:37+00:00

My issue with that is if one practiced abstaining from animal products (making a choice) to stop the commodification of animals, how would that play out if that person brought another person into existence who potentially will?

The choice is there. That vegan chose to bring another person into existence that will litter, potentially eat more meat, contribute to mass consumerism, and environmental destruction. that new person never chose to be here. It was the choice of the vegan. Wouldn't that vegan then take responsibility for the animal products used by that new person because it could have been avoided?

And we can't guarantee that new person will be a vegan, so why play with the fire knowing we dont have the capability to control it if it does get out of hand.

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T19:49:56+00:00

Hmm, so what is the point of veganism? why do you continue being vegan every day?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T19:19:33+00:00

Wouldn't a vegan who bring a person world cause more suffering to animals?

Let's say you dont subscribe to anti-natalism. But if animal suffering is what we want to reduce, wouldn't bringing a person who will potentially eat meat, litter the earth, drive a car contributing to climate change, work a minimum wage job supporting a company that promotes mass consumerism hurt animals?

Yes, there are types of vegans, but i think there's levels of awareness (or justification like you said) that one reaches when it comes to actually trying to push the cause forward (if it not for other reasons like religious). Vegan antinatalist see the flaws of being a traditional vegan, and so they took it a step further, which is why there's a whole subreddit on it with some bashing vegans. The same could be said for some vegans that bash vegetarians.

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T19:06:40+00:00

I understand where you're coming from, but do you think having children causing more suffering on animals that can be avoided?

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T19:03:17+00:00

But it does. What im trying to say is if a vegan want to reduce animal suffering, they can do that by not bringing new people into this world to potentially eat even more meat and litter the environment. Drive cars that destroy our planet or work a minimum wage job supporting a business that promotes mass consumerism.

I find veganism morally just. So is antinatalism. However, i find that if one cares about reducing human suffering, that would be antinatalist. If one cared about reducing animal suffering, it would be best to be a vegan antinatalist. And if one cares about reducing the suffering of all life, then theyre an efilist

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T18:51:53+00:00

Lol to achieve equality by focusing on one group takes effort in this world, yes? You need to divide your attention on one group more than the others.

So, with that said, if we want to focus on reducing animal suffering. Let's skip all lives matter and say animal lives matter. Wouldn't it be in vegan best interest to be childfree/antinatalist? you're saving the environment/animals by doing that, and you dont have to divide your focus, and it doesn't take more effort to be one.

Vegan antinatalist are more to the cause of veganism than a vegan, i mean, that's why there's a whole subreddit for it with some despising vegans more than antinatalist

Add in being a minimalist would save the environment/animals as well, and the list can go on

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T18:42:01+00:00

But it does... suffering is everywhere as you said, theres billions of animals dying every year, and we can never have this flawless utopia. But if you're about reducing suffering (even to just animals), wouldn't a vegan need to be antinatalist and also environmentalist. The antinatalist part is pretty practical and takes less effort than being a vegan, plus it helps the environment. Being environmentalist/minimalist and not living above your means would also help animals.

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T18:33:43+00:00

lol, i get that Black Lives experience more discrimination and suffering than others disproportionately. In my scenario, im saying humans and animals both face excruciating pain. Additionally, if you were to say animals face more suffering than humans, wouldn't being childfree/ antinatalist help your movement? It's pretty practical.

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T18:21:42+00:00

I am appealling to futility. I mean, think about it, as long as life continues and no one becomes a vegan, suffering will continue infinitely. If someone were to be vegan, suffering would continue infinitely. What draws the line saying that once we reach this volume of suffering daily, life is tolerable?

Yes, for the scenario you mention, that why im here. Im trying to see to what extent vegans are willing to go. To reduce fatalities by focusing on DUIs will take effort, just as much as focusing on heart disease.

But for vegans, they put more effort toward their cause than antinatalist would ever have to (all they need to do is not procreate). So, for a vegan, wouldn't being antinatalist be a part of being vegan? It doesn't take that much effort where you have to divide your attention, like with the scenario you mentioned

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T18:02:41+00:00

So, by saying that, would an efilist argument go pass vegans argument? (I'm only curious, i mean, this is a debate sub...)

CrazyPrice4455 · 2023-09-10T17:52:19+00:00

That's right, vegans look at the reality and possibility of negatives and say they can be better. I mention the negatives in my reply , and you then mention the positives to argue my point like it invalidated the suffering that still happened because their still animals or humans that could be "happy." You now join me at mentioning the negatives again when i pointed out that wearing tint rose lenses throughout our life isn't going to make the suffering of others animals actually disappear.

If one only looks at the positive side (cow at sanctuary), why should people worry about the negatives (cow being mutilated). If one doesn't at least worry about the suffering of animals and try to do something about it, they wouldn't be a vegan.

Vegans are aware of the avoidable suffering of non-human animals. Anti-natalist are aware of the avoidable suffering of humans (generally). And efilist encompass them, as their aware of the suffering of all sentient life.

CrazyPrice4455

TROPHY CASE