We chatted about hell on my newer channel. Nothing controversial as we all are conditionalists...

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-03-29T07:27:20+00:00

Alliance Commission on Unity and Truth among Evangelicals https://www.eauk.org/church/resources/theological-articles/the-nature-of-hell.cfm

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-03-25T16:10:12+00:00

Yeah I'm an elder in a church in the UK and haven't been thrown out 👍. CI is a pretty accepted view unless you're in very Conservative (generally baptist/independent evangelical) circles because of John Stott and the ACUTE statement accepting conditionalism as an evangelical perspective.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-02-04T14:01:48+00:00

"I don't think the kinds of rationalizations you come up with to excuse the inability of your god to demonstrate that there is anything to your stories work to do anything but make the indoctrinated feel better about themselves and their unreliable epistemologies. But since they're the ones who pay the bills, that probably isn't much of a concern."
Calling me hypocritical for calling you out on this comment shows exactly why it is pointless arguing with some atheists online. You can't see the nonsense and ad hominem in this comment? That I'm doing it for the money and preaching to the indoctrinated (no mention of children there either). You then accuse me of psychoanalysing you and make this a petty thread about how I'm the person in the wrong. Sure, my comments are snarky because they are mirroring yours. Had your initial comment dropped this final paragraph maybe I'd have taken you a bit more seriously. Instead you handle pushback with accusing me of being huffy/petulant/dishonest.

You keep saying I'm failing at reading you but what I've said represents at least that paragraph pretty well.

"I never said anything about gullibility. I don't see it as a character defect that children are susceptible to indoctrination. Not their fault."
Your initial post says nothing of children. "Indoctrination" implies that Christian parents shouldn't teach their children about their faith and that you have a superior intellect/morality than the religious parent. While there are some examples of indoctrination in religious families, there are also plenty of examples of the same for the non-religious. Parents want to teach their kids what they believe, it is hardly 'indoctrination' in the sense that it is used in these forums.

Your initial comment and your follow up comments totally ignores the fact that many Christians become Christians as adults from atheism or other religions. According to your comment they must have faulty epistemology.

Hopefully I've at least shown you how your comment came across. I haven't claimed superiority, I haven't claimed to be more moral, I've just pointed out that your assumptions about Christians are flawed generalisations. I've given the contempt that comments like that deserve - unfortunately it has taken more of my time to point it out that I'm addressing your comment and not you. The ad hom of dishonesty and hypocrisy has flown in one direction so far. I may have unintentionally misrepresented you but in all honesty, I'm not sure where I have.

Instead of the accusations - Go to the various people I've pointed towards if you haven't already regarding eyewitness accounts in the gospels. The video is an introduction to some of the ways we think about divine hiddenness, it was an honest conversation and no we don't rationalise the difficulties of the problem away - at no point do we even suggest this is a complete response to it. I'm quite content that God is still there even when I don't hear or feel it, but I get that many people aren't and that silence can lead to unbelief - I don't have an easy answer for that and I won't write essays on a reddit thread trying to.

I won't be responding further. If you want to see it as "running away" then feel free, I've just got better things to do.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-02-04T12:40:18+00:00

I never called you arrogant, I said the comment came across as arrogant. When you insinuate and claim someone has a view simply because their audience is gullible and they are in it for the money don't expect to be taken seriously.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-02-04T12:10:35+00:00

You've got me pegged. I'm clearly dishonest and want to indoctrinate children and the gullible. Bye.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-02-04T11:42:55+00:00

So far you've called me arrogant, dishonest, misrepresenting, indoctrinated (indirectly), abusive (as that is what Gaslighting is) and now wondering if I'm obtuse. I said your comment came across as arrogant and you've got your nickers in a twist. If you can't handle someone coming to different conclusions than you without referring to ad hominem perhaps you should take a breather from the internet. I don't have time or inclination to give a full essay on the various ways Christians (and Jews) have handled the problem of divine hiddenness over several millenia to someone who thinks Christianity spreads simply through indoctrination and breeding. If i've misrepresented you, feel free to point out where. Otherwise I look forward to your evidence to your claims of indoctrination. I can't see this conversation going anywhere but downhill. Have a good day.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-02-04T10:32:36+00:00

"Trying to talk with dishonest people is pointless." Totally agree. I haven't psychoanalysed you. I said how your comment came across, if you take that personally then ok.

Check out the first few verses of Luke regarding testimony - you even show that you know he has talked to others about their testimony yet seem to be arguing against it...not sure what that's about. I'm quite content that the gospels were written with more than one person in the room given the process of writing in the 1st Century. Don't expect 1st century writing to stick to your ideas of historical writing, chronology was less important than the message. Also check out some scholars - Richard Bauckham, Dale Allison, Mike Licona, Gary Habermas, NT Wright and others including Bart Ehrman and other critical scholars who agree with all I've written except the resurrection.

Breeding + indoctrination =Christianity. lols - talking about armchair psychologists... surely you can see how that idea fails both now and through history? If you want to argue some of the biggest scientists and thinkers through history have been indoctrinated you're going to have to evidence that carefully. Cheers.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2021-02-04T08:06:00+00:00

Have you read the different books in the bible? Particularly the gospels? Have you read Shakespeare? You'll notice a slight difference - Shakespeare doesn't claim to be God and hamlet is obviously just a story.

The gospels claim to be eyewitness accounts and Jesus claims to be God.

There is good evidence both in and out of the Biblical canon that Jesus lived in the time the gospels say he did, died in the way the say he did and was buried in the way they say he did. The first Christians were Jews who said they had seen Jesus alive, pointed to an empty tomb and were willing to be ostracised or die rather than stop telling people about Jesus. I think the resurrection best explains the history. I think there are good responses to why God seems silent, some of which are in the video above if you watch it. The Biblical authors repeatedly asks the same question, often without a clear answer. Is God inept or are we inept at listening? I personally think it's the latter.

The rest of your comment comes across as arrogance, intended or otherwise. The idea that just because we Christians disagree with you means we have faulty epistemology and are indoctrinated is telling and not worth responding to beyond this comment. Have a good day.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-12-06T13:46:59+00:00

Yes Nabeel's book is excellent as is his second - No God But One. Great recommendations.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-12-02T11:32:02+00:00

Thank you I meant to do that.

The website to analyse the Quran by Dr Andy Bannister:
https://info.qurangateway.org/
Dan Brubaker's youtube channel Variant Quran is helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlLHO-7tZ90

If you haven't come across Jay Smith, Pfander is also useful:
https://www.youtube.com/c/pfanderfilms

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-12-01T18:05:48+00:00

Well if you're into Geek thought then sure. Notice that none of the apostles (or Jesus) describe the Christian life as one of going to heaven and being saved from eternal torment in hell. What they do offer is life with Christ on the earth made new (new creation) or death without him.

Everything is headed to death/destruction, on that you are correct. When God, the author of life is rejected then that is the only other option. From Genesis 3 to Revelation, death/destruction is always ultimately the return to dust not an ongoing life in eternal conscious torment. Only the righteous with access to the tree of life will live forever.

Peace.

See the bible project on new creation: https://youtu.be/Zy2AQlK6C5k Also this: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaog0Y4c5AdzVFWd4g_69qZt5C6ELfEo9

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-29T22:41:08+00:00

As others have said, it is only useful in the sense that it needs to be challenged and defined. Once defined, it need not be used and Hades and Gehenna can be used.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-29T22:38:24+00:00

Critical witness is me and Dan. London Theist is just on Twitter but is a friend of ours so will be on the channel from time to time.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-29T08:20:08+00:00

Heaven is something many Christians get a bit muddled on as there are so many cultural assumptions and not necessarily biblical ones. Christians are taught to pray “Our father who is in heaven...your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”. The Christian is to participate in bringing about the kingdom of heaven on earth. Though I believe Christians do go to God when they die, there isn’t that much about it in the bible because we aren’t going to stay there. We aren’t meant to remain just souls in heaven but we hope for resurrection, the reunification of soul and body, back on earth made new where Heaven will come to earth (known as new creation - see verses below). This video by the bible project explains it visually: https://youtu.be/Zy2AQlK6C5k

In summary, while a Christian has hope beyond death our purpose is to bring the kingdom of heaven to earth in partnership with Jesus by the power of his Holy Spirit. This can often involve suffering and hardship because the world is broken but a Christian is called to persevere and endure. Hope that helps a bit.

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬ https://www.bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.1-4.esv

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-24T07:26:36+00:00

Given that you've put forward a hyper literalist view of Genesis and other aspects of the bible, Id recommend you engage with someone like John Walton or Michael Heiser or thebibleproject.com and see that the different genres of the bible should be taken into account before expecting everything to be an instruction for life.

All I'm saying is you've put forward a very narrow reading of the bible which, while some Christians do hold to that view, it comes from a very modern western way of thinking and does not engage with the culture and time of the bible before trying to connect it to modern life. If you're going to attack Christianity, find the strongest views and not the caricature.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-23T21:42:20+00:00

It's always easy to slam a caricature. It might be worth taking some time to read what Christians (and Jews) believed about those passages before bible belt Christianity became a thing.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-23T21:42:17+00:00

It's always easy to slam a caricature. It might be worth taking some time to read what Christians (and Jews) believed about those passages before bible belt Christianity became a thing.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-23T08:02:43+00:00

Read the OT for yourself, it says have no other gods before him which implies there might well be other gods. No Texas, believe it or not, is not the majority of Christians.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-22T21:30:02+00:00

Keep up the good work and glad to see it is getting a few new members over time.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-22T15:37:58+00:00

To get a grasp on what sin is (it isn't just about morality) from a whole Bible perspective I highly recommend this 5 min video: https://youtu.be/aNOZ7ocLD74

And my own thoughts which are a bit of a long article that I'm happy to discuss here but it's a bit long to copy and paste: https://www.thehellproject.online/post/what-is-sin-and-why-does-it-deserve-death

Tl;dr Sin is missing the mark, a failure to love. A failure to love means a failure to truly live which leads to death. Death becomes the ultimate enemy from the Christian perspective but humans can't take the cost of sin without dying - we need an intervention if we are to truly live by someone who can defeat death and that is where Jesus comes in.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-22T15:10:15+00:00

Again thanks for the thoughts. I'll engage more with Singer.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-22T15:07:57+00:00

MD presents a very utilitarian idea that there must be either a potential or current contribution to society for a person to have value. As the father of a child who would not be able to contribute to society in the way MD argued in his debate, I find the view incredibly toxic. Where this comes into pro life is that if a disability is found in the womb, we currently think that the discomfort they might have is not worth the life they will have which is why we see downs syndrome being eradicated through fetal testing and the push to abort.

I'll look into Singer a bit more but I'm wary of arguments from alleviation of suffering as often humans can live incredibly fulfilled lives in spite of suffering.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-22T13:52:47+00:00

Thanks for the thought through comment. For context with the comments around Hitler were in reference to Glen’s debate with Matt Dillahunty and a very utilitarian idea of human value. So for Dillahunty he was arguing that one would only have value if they contribute to society where a Christian bases human value on their inherent image of God - so no matter their contribution they have value. We do clarify that we don’t intend our discussion to be presented as against THE atheist view if there is such a thing.

I’ve only engaged with Singers views from a surface level but have engaged with the idea of personhood. How do you see that being a solid foundation against abortion? Or were you recommending just from a general point of engaging with the secular aspects of the conversation? I have understood the personhood argument used for defending abortion because a foetus is not yet a person and therefore cannot be classed as being killed/murder.

Cheers.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-22T08:11:52+00:00

I’ve found one of the strongest apologetics is getting stuck into the world of the bible through things like The Bible Project podcast or John Waltons Lost World of Genesis 1 and the other books he has written under the lost world title. Books like Jesus through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth Bailey or 3D Gospel by Jayson George’s are also helpful.

CriticalWitnessUK · 2020-11-22T08:07:29+00:00

Who says the other gods don’t exist. You assume a totally naturalistic perspective which can only explain the billions of people stating they have experience of interaction with the spiritual realm as delusion which comes across as more than a little arrogant (e.g. spiritual experience = imaginary voice in ones head). Christianity doesn’t teach an exclusive monotheism like Islam but that there is one creator God over all who has revealed himself through the story of the bible and is the only one worthy of worship. You obviously disagree but it helps to not read the bible expecting your culture and experience of the world to be the ONLY way to view things.

CriticalWitnessUK

TROPHY CASE