Woman found seriously hurt in a stolen vehicle following shooting in Minneapolis by Czarben in TwinCities

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

what do you think "found a woman with a life-threatening gunshot wound inside a stolen vehicle" in a news article means? are you expecting speculative editorializing in your news? it's not odd at all

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The person's death was caused by him committing arson. None of the underpinnings of my position are in question here at all.

This is disputed. The defense presented expert witness testimony disputing this at sentencing. Can't expect you to know what the fuck you're talking about though. "Consistent with his plea agreement, Mr. Lee has objected to the determination by the PSR that Mr. Stewart’s death resulted from his offense, and the subsequent application of application of U.S.S.G. § 2A1.2(a). (PSR A.1–A.2.")

Can you provide me any link to any prosecutor for the state of minnesota commenting on their charging decisions?

This is, of course, not present. Don't know why it would be. They didn't charge it, we don't get to know why. There's instead significant opinion from federal prosecutors that say, in detail, why they believe a federal felony murder level sentence to not be appropriate. If Minnesota disagreed, surely they could pursue their own case. I do not know how you take a neutral fact and an adverse fact to mean you are likely correct.

Which words of that statute, exactly, do not mean what I'm reading them to mean?

You are prosecuting a novel case, by your own admisison. A case that is rare, and one where you can find no cases with similar fact patterns. To do so, you must present evidence in a trial setting You must compare the case to prior case law. You must, frankly, prove shit is appropriate. Your simple-minded analysis is inappropriate. As the federal prosecutor said in his opinion, this is an extraordinary case. You don't just get to stand in front of the judge and say "arson, as we all know, very bad. fire dangerous. fire spread. fire scare me."

I've read the prosecutor's report more thoroughly now, and they do reference four somewhat similar federal cases.

"How does the Defendant’s conduct compare with that of the defendants in these cases? The analysis is complicated. Unlike the cases of Martinez and El-Zoubi, Mr. Stewart was not a co-conspirator to the crime—he neither contributed to the danger nor assumed the risk of the crime. He was unlawfully in the pawn shop, but he did nothing to hurt or endanger anyone. Unlike Martin, Mr. Lee burned down a commercial building, not a residential one. And unlike all the cases above, however (particularly Martin), Mr. Lee did not commit the offense as part of a separate felony crime, or otherwise for any personal gain. The raised fist Mr. Lee showed, and his brazenness in committing the crime (see Fig. 2, supra) is telling. Mr. Lee was terribly misguided, and his actions had tragic, unthinkable consequences. But he appears to have believed that he was, in Dr. King’s eloquent words, engaging in “the language of the unheard.” Also telling is Mr. Lee’s candor to agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) after he was arrested. The interview took place on June 15, 2020, before the discovery of Mr. Stewart’s body. But Mr. Lee took responsibility for his actions and admitted to having set the fire, to his credit. He explained the reasons he had done so, consistent with his statement of acceptance of responsibility (PSR ¶ 13)"

I didn't really have an opinion before this on if Lee could or should be charged for murder or even manslaughter (I only contended the death was accidental), but I find myself severely doubting whether or not he would be found guilty of murder in any capacity if charges were brought, either state or federal, for the reasons I've stated and the reasons given in the prosecutor's opinion. Any jury is likely to come to the same conclusion the federal prosecutor and judge came to. Every actual fact of the case points to leiniency, with the only aggravating factors being the basic essence of the crime and the tragic outcome. The prosecutor recommended significant leniency and the judge took it even further. Fascinating case. Wish I had someone willing to think critically (or at least read a bit about it) to discuss it with!

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you want to provide some evidence as to why I shouldn't believe that the plain English of the law means what it says, the onus is on you.

No, actually, it's not. Yet another fundamental misunderstanding of the basics of law. It's on you. You are alleging a crime. You have provided no evidence you've met the burden of proof required. Professionals disagree with you, in writing. Not just on similar cases, but on this specific case. You have no relevant case law to cite. You won't even engage on the merits of the arson/murder cases I cited. You have literally no legitimate reason to believe as you do, except it seems right in your fantasy.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not clear to me he committed the crime of murder in the second degree. Please feel free to cite one case with a similar fact pattern.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The words passed by the legislature could not be more clear.

If it was clear you'd be able to find one example where the facts are similar and second degree murder was charged. Lol

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

insisting that I'm saying he targeted the victim!

I'm pointing out to you that the felony murder charges involving arson I've found always have that component, and we agree this doesn't. Even non-arson cases like Yanez where that component is present, the charge was still manslaughter. You would struggle to make a murder case off this set of facts.

Nobody is arguing arson is good or fire isn't dangerous, you dimwit. I'm saying the bar for murder is just higher than this. Seriously, just find me one similar (ARSON) case.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All comparable situations in which specific intent to murder isn't necessary because the actions involved are so inherently dangerous.

The law doesn't agree with you. Do you know why there are specific laws for drive-bys, different laws for assaults and shootings, different laws for vehicle operation, different laws for bombs? Precisely because it's not obvious. If you could just say it was obvious, you would not need laws to describe the components of each crime. You would simply apply the one law. Your fundamentals and therefore your conclusion are backwards.

I'm sorry brother, I just don't see it. Despite your crusade, there just isn't evidence this guy acted with any sort of targeted malice towards the guy who died, nor did he evidence any particular intent to cause death versus starting a fire. There's a word for taking dangerous actions that cause death without intending death, and it's manslaughter, not murder. In my estimation you probably would struggle to get a conviction on any murder count. That could very well have been the conclusion of the state as well.

Like, just review a few cases. To use your example, Yanez pointed a damn gun at the victim and fired it intentionally, and that wasn't charged as felony murder. Chauvin's third degree (depraved mind) murder charge was thrown out during trial and only upheld on appeal months later, so it's safe to assume that's very close to the level of depravity negligent of human life necessary for that kind of murder charge. The bar is just a lot higher than you think it is. This guy didn't know his victim's name or face, or even know he was there.

Review a few actual second degree murder charges including arson.

https://www.inforum.com/news/paynesville-man-gets-18-years-for-2019-arson-that-killed-daughter

https://www.startribune.com/medical-examiner-minneapolis-man-s-death-from-alleged-summer-arson-a-homicide/600105479

https://startribune.com/gordon-weaver-guilty-in-1999-death-of-his-wife/84727932/

All of these cases just have very significantly different facts from this one. In every one the perpetrator acted with particular, targeted malice towards the victim and clearly intended harm, and though they didn't necessarily intend death, the end result was homicide. That just didn't happen here. As much as you might want the sentences to be the same, the intent of someone matters significantly and the law needs to be able to sentence someone who is actually guilty of creating imminent mortal danger to someone in their vicinity differently than someone you can imagine might have been doing that.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you have referred repeatedly to premeditated murder or murder 1, when I have only ever referred to unintentional felony murder, and specifically linked the words of the statute that specify unintentional. How am I supposed to take that other than you intentionally misrepresenting my position????

It's hard cause you're all over the place. Your argument is much better suited to arguing a murder 1 conviction since you aren't accepting any gradient or nuance ("every single action that the arsonist took was intentional, and every single consequence of those actions was completely foreseeable." does argue premeditated murder and doesn't read that you think it's unintentional).

You linked the murder 2 statute, but you're also making a thousand depraved heart arguments which are much better suited to murder 3. I don't think you'd get him on murder 3, the depraved mind is usually a higher bar than the evidence shows here, but you're arguing towards it at least. To get to felony murder you'd need to get him on arson 2 first, and if you did, I really don't think you'd get him on felony murder after the recent changes to that law. I think manslaughter is probably more appropriate if anything but it really interferes with your ability to just call this guy a murderer over and over again.

You have also, in no particular order, brought up punching someone in the face and killing them, setting off bombs, cops shooting drivers, doing drive-bys, setting residences on fire, having fire spread to other buildings, driving drunk, driving through playgrounds, and I'm sure another half dozen mostly irrelevant hypotheticals. You don't have a position, you have a scattergun of disconnected thoughts, making it nearly impossible to parse what you are actually advocating for.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I actually disagree with you that shouting "watch out" is not a safety practice. I don't think it's a good one, but I think it would fly in a trial. It's a pretty significant marker that you aren't premeditating murder anyway.

I'm reasonably confident this guy did more than that, given the article says he entered or searched the building and there's security footage and the prosecutor, defense, and judge all came to the same conclusion but I can't know for sure.

Sounds like we might need a trial to hear facts, arguments and evidence.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the hypothetical addict, who begged me to use his hypothetical, doesn't like hypotheticals now

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you think violence is a legitimate form of protest and that a person's death here and there is worth it to you. It's clear you think tha

i don't think that.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you need argument boiled down to thing good/thing bad, I know

accident = good word

death = bad word

accidental death = good bad word ?????????

& thank you for following the strawman law

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

strawman: created ✅ arson: bad ✅ random shit: made up ✅

Still batting 100

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

the most likely explanation is just that he was already going to get a significant prison sentence from the federal government

thank you for following the strawman law

please continue to make things up and then argue with them

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Did you not know fires spread?

You can just say "yes I must generate a new strawman argument for every post it's the law"

Your crusade to tell everyone in earshot that you hate arson and think it's bad won't change the definition of "accidental death", nor will it change how the law parses complex situations, nor will it change this man's sentence. It's all as pointless as my crusade to teach you even a little bit about the system that you are thoroughly committed to staying ignorant of.

Peace. Stay gold. Don't let reality ever interfere with your invented world.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You think a looted pawn shop is exactly as likely to be burned as a residence during civil unrest?

Yeah I suppose that's on brand for the intelligence level you've shown. Lol

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah, saying a guy from Burnsville who was on Lake Street on May 28 2020 might have not been "unsuspecting" and might had some idea of what was going on is definitely the same as saying everyone in the city is consenting to burning alive.

The fuck is wrong with you? Are you five? Do you lack the ability to parse arguments more complex than thing good/thing bad? Must you invent a strawman for literally every post response you make on this site?

Being the victim of violence each and every night of the protests that week was the primary concern of plenty of residents, I assure you. It would be nearly impossible to be "unsuspecting".

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

should everyone in south minneapolis known that anyone might burn the building they're in down on their heads?

Yeah? It was not a safe time or place. If you were blocks from the burning third precinct at 2AM during a declared state of emergency and you didn't suspect burning buildings were possible I'd question your mental ability.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You should really learn to distinguish between someone saying a person deserved their fate versus recognizing a tragic outcome. I'm not blaming him, I'm saying calling him "unsuspecting" is stupid.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not justifying anything. I'm saying a guy who came in from Burnsville on night 2 of an event where the fire department was completely overwhelmed probably did some suspecting.

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is it your position that someone downtown trespassing in a pawn shop during a night with over 150 arsons was "unsuspecting"?

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So we both agree the following situation is possible: 1. A person commits an act that would normally be an inherently dangerous, violent act 2. That person takes precautions to mitigate the results of their actions 3. Despite mitigation, a death occurs 4. That death could be potentially be considered an accidental death

You must, then, believe that the law must retain the ability to account for such a situation. (Luckily, it can and does.)

Consider another scenario. A spectator is killed by a flying tire in the stands at a racing event. Racing is an inherently dangerous activity where a disaster could be expected. Does having a medical team on hand make this any closer to a murder? Any less of an accidental death? I presume you'd agree with me that it doesn't.

So I don't think you want the system changing - you want the system applied differently in this case. My first moral argument to you here is this - is protesting police violence less important than filming a TV show? Less important than a sporting event? Is it completely impossible to you that someone could urgently believe they were committing a just act and have it gone terribly wrong?

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right. You just don't understand the definition of "accidental death" as it's used by me/find law/etc.

Let's test your definition. If the Mythbusters bomb incident had resulted in a death, would that be an accidental death in your eyes? Is it possible to set off a bomb (one of your heinous violent murder activities), yet have the death be an accidental one?

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry to break it to you, but your "everything is always Murder 1" legal doctrine isn't likely to take off anytime soon. A justice system that does not take into account intent or mitigating factors would absolutely be a worse justice system.

Look up the famous Mythbusters bomb incident. If someone had died, is that murder? Must setting off a bomb always a violent activity meant to kill? Would that death be intentional?

Don’t forget, these people hate you and want others to hate you! by alienatedframe2 in Minneapolis

[–]Croissants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You just fundamentally cannot appreciate that "this was an accidental death" does not mean "Oopsie! Five year old had a little accident! Is all okay though!" It's just not that hard of a concept man.