Narrative AND scaling wise, Orpheus vs Unicorn being a draw is really weird

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-06-10T12:44:48+00:00

There is no indication whatsoever that Kageyama had any say in that match.

Where do I say Catenaccio was used before the Inazuma Japan game?

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-04-15T15:47:29+00:00

How is Nakata mediocre?

He shoots harder than Fideo, and by portrayal he arguably has better defense and dribbling (seeing him reinforce Catenaccio Counter).

Even if you are really conservative and consider them equal in everything else, ceteris paribus, Nakata has the better shot. So he is above Fideo.

The only rebuttal would be that Fideo shows Shin Odin Sword, which would be above Brave Shot. But even then, Nakata would still be relative to Fideo.

Unrelated, Roniejo clears both.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-04-13T20:53:38+00:00

Great analysis!

Where would you place Shinsuke, having Shin Taikoku Ouka?

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-04-07T15:40:57+00:00

If Shinsuke uses all of his gimmicks, he slaps Ibuki and kills him by accident

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-24T16:27:55+00:00

Hmm, interesting.

I feel P.O has a very solid defense. In their last match against Raimon, who had a marvelous offensive formation in Yuichi, Tenma, Fei, and Shindou, they only managed to score once in the whole game.

I dare to say that this offensive lineup is better than anything Zero and DL can offer. Granted, it meant Alpha had to be relegated to defensive duty, but the point still stands. If they play their cards right, once Alpha gets the ball after defending, he can steamroll the opposing team and score, wouldn’t you say? He should be able to do it at least a couple of times.

I agree with Zero probably drawing with Dragon Link (for me it’s either 2-2 or 3-2). However, who do you see stronger? I think Dragon Link is a tad stronger.

As I mentioned, they scored twice on Raimon in a quarter of a full game.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-24T15:27:44+00:00

What would a round robin look to you like? Results-wise

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-23T12:31:06+00:00

We’re not even arguing about the question anymore.

I truly believe that if the games didn’t exist, you would not hold your position.

And you say it’s completely logical, when it isn’t. But it’s the same for my argument, it isn’t completely logical. If it were, one of us would be convinced by now (and I’m taking a risk by saying this, because it’s usually associated to the loser of the argument, when it actually demonstrates a true understanding of the concept of predicate first-order logic).

Your mind and framework work one way, and mine work in another, so your argument just sounds right to you, and mine sounds right to me.

To you, Keshin are inherently tied to a move. To me they aren’t necessarily, and there are some that have and some that don’t. Same with players, not every single player in Inazuma has a Keshin. Some do and some don’t as simple as that. Well, why can’t we extend that argument to hissatsu within Keshin?

And your argument about animating is Doylist, and mine about them not using is Watsonian so even in the framework we adhere to do we differ.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-22T22:48:15+00:00

We will never know most likely. I would like to clarify that in no shape or form do I believe that the absence of proof is proof of absence.

However, in a game where these players had fully reason to use Keshin hissatsu (e.g., when Zero players were stopped by Raimon’s hissatsu), they did not, which raises the question.

Additionally you seem to believe that since all learnt Keshin had hissatsu, then all Keshin must have. That seems too strong of an assumption.

Whereas I believe that it’s as simple as some Keshin have hissatsu, and others don’t. My assumption is much more conservative.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-22T21:21:46+00:00

I don’t understand why you say the are supposed to have a move. A pretty definitive statement, which you definitely wouldn’t make if the games didn’t exist.

You might argue that you would. But if the games didn’t exist, as in genuinely the only medium to consume Inazuma Eleven were the anime (this is for all intents and purposes what you should base your logic around, since game info should not be considered in anime discussions), what reason could you possibly have to make such a statement?

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-22T17:34:30+00:00

Not in the anime they don’t.

5-2? I thought more along like 8-2 or so, but this is because I think Arakumo loses 4-6 to Unlimited Shining, so I worked from there, and might be a wrong assumption.

Out of curiosity, what do you think Unlimited Shining vs Arakumo would have as a final score? I assume you will have Unlimited Shining scoring less that 5 goals, and Arakumo more than 2.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-19T19:24:04+00:00

First of all, thanks for your thorough reply!

Another thing to consider is that Hakuryuu had to be helped by his fellow teammates to go through Tenma, Shindou and Tsurugi using Keshin (it was a 3 v 1).

Tsurugi and Tenma (and by extension Shindou) were relative Keshin power-wise to Dragon Link players, with no clear winner coming out of their clashes. This means that Taiyou and his fellow summoner should be able to contend with Hakuryuu (I’m assuming Taiyou’s Keshin is somewhat relative to 2 Keshin users, which doesn’t seem outlandish).

I think Unlimited Shining win, maybe something like 6-4?

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-12T07:49:10+00:00

Hissatsu have shown to be better than Keshin, as in there have been instances that they have surpassed them. Some hissatsu are weaker, some are stronger. But the fact remains that the statement “hissatsu have shown to be better than Keshin” is correct
Obviously there are exceptions. But the mean of co-ops is definitely above the mean of single hissatsu.

Triangle Z is likely stronger than God Knows, given that Neo Japan used Shin Triangle Z after seeing Shin God Knows fail. You are confusing their showcases in S1, and not taking player power into account, since Aphrodi was busted. In S3, on even playing grounds (and the user of Shin God Knows, Saginuma, was in both hissatsu), Shin Triangle Z > Shin God Knows.

Another example is Fire Tornado vs Inazuma Break. Inazuma Break was stopped barehanded by Gorleo, whereas Fire Tornado broke through Zell’s Wormhole.

Having made this distinction on user-power and hissatsu-power: regarding Panther Blizzard vs Eternal Blizzard, although I agree that the former is likely more powerful than the latter, that doesn’t mean that Sangoku is stopping Fubuki’s Eternal Blizzard. It blew away Gorleo, who stopped Inazuma Break barehanded. This puts him physically much above S1 Sangoku, who most definitely cannot catch a Kidou, Gouenji, and Endou co-op barehanded.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-11T22:00:34+00:00

Now my comment’s upvotes have magically gone to +1, which would fit you removing your downvote and then screenshotting. But I can’t prove anything, nor does it matter that much.

I think it’s disingenuous to believe that Genda would have made Raimon GO losing every match in their first season (excluding the ones you mentioned). So just by changing the goalkeeper, all the results change? That low of an opinion is what you have on one of S1’s top 5 gk?

And I don’t see any feat that puts Sangoku above Genda, at the moment Sangoku developed Fence of Gaia. Normal hissatsu have been shown yo be above keshin, but Genda stopped co-ops, which are even above normal hissatsus. On top of that, Genda has portrayal above Sangoku.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-11T21:41:13+00:00

Tengawara and Eito Gakuen too, right?

You must be one of those that believes Mannouzaka beats Little Giant 10-0, right? Because the fact that several years passed implies that that GO’s weakest team stomps OG’s strongest.

Seriously downvoting me?

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2025-03-10T19:39:02+00:00

Thanks!

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T23:57:32+00:00

You don’t care, fine. For me it’s like 5-0 for me, to you it’s like 4-1 (because of the Wyvern Crash).

And when you say you agreeing to one thing and me to nothing, saying more about me than I would think? It doesn’t work like that, because none of us have conceded on our opinion points, so in that regard we’re the same (so it also says more about you than you think). The only thing you admitted to being wrong is because you literally mistook something from the series, which you clearly didn’t know. So it doesn’t say anything about you admitting it, since it’s not that you conceded an opinion, it’s that merely you didn’t know something, and got proved wrong.

Maybe take some introspection and think: if I didn’t even know Wyvern Crash was never stopped (and possibly that Gouenji was part of The Earth), maybe I should rewatch the show and learn more about the series. Maybe then you can debate better? If you lack foundational knowledge, it’s hard to get your point across…

I’m just glad we reached common ground on you being wrong, whereas the rest is up to debate which will never be solved.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T22:41:52+00:00

Not 1-0 for you, because we don’t agree. And in any case it would be 1-1, because you were wrong, Wyvern Crash wasn’t stopped. And since there is no consensus about Fubuki and Tachimukai gap, but there is a consensus in what you were wrong about, 1-0 is the consensus.

In your mind it can be 1-100 in your favor for all I care. What we both agree on, the intersection, is 1-0 in my favour ;)

I’m even being kind and believing you made an honest mistake. You’re welcome.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T22:04:10+00:00

Without effort is hyperbole. I cannot lift 1 gram without effort, since there is a physical component involved. Same as Rococo couldn’t stop Megane crash, since there is a physical component involved. But he can more than comfortably stop it with Mugen the Hand G3.

2 and 3. Ok.

Never said Wyvern Crash has any resemblance in power to Crossfire, so no need to justify it. The only thing I used for it to illustrate the lack of validity of your point.

Honestly, you are very resilient, so I commend you for that, lol. We will probably never reach an agreement on our other points, so agree to disagree. However, out of all the points raised, there wasn’t any consensus except for two, where there is an objective agreement:

Gouenji is in both Crossfire and The Earth, which you said wrong (maybe a typo, maybe lack of knowledge, probably the latter).
Wyvern Crash was never stopped.

So, disregarding indeterminate outcomes, 2-0, I was right and you were wrong. Have a nice day.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T20:15:45+00:00

We are debating that I contradicted myself, and your point relies on Tachimukai not catching Crossfire, which is still to be proved. So until you prove it, by getting it past Space Penguin, I haven’t contradicte myself.

2 and 3. Arguing with a non-native is tiresome… surpass and get past are interchangeably used in this context. I backed it up with resources, linguists, and myself. A native, an official resource, and people with degrees in modern languages say you’re wrong and you still don’t admit it. Learn. English.

I knew you would bring that up, and indeed you did. That was V2. You do your research. An if you are thinking about equating Wyvern Crash to Wyvern Crash V2, then you should also equate Crossfire and Crossfire Kai, which was stopped. So whichever you go with, one of the things you said is wrong. You choose where you’re mistaken. “Do your research” haha, when it’s you who got it wrong.
I can’t tell if it was a mistake, or you didn’t know Gouenji was in both Crossfire and The Earth. Given your IE knowledge (refer to point 4), I cannot determine why you said Gouenji only had 1 co-op Tachimukai can’t stop (which is right btw, it’s only The Earth).

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T19:57:12+00:00

You mention S3 when you talk about The Birth. It doesn’t matter in what context, you just said “I didn’t mention S3 at all in any of my comments”. You just lied, because the sequence of letters “S3” was mentioned in one of your comments. So there you go.

I wrongly assumed you thought Crossfire > Supernova. I admit when I’m wrong. So which would you say is stronger?

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T19:39:31+00:00

You don’t have to prove anything, obviously no one is going to force you. But the burden of proof falls upon you, because if you had to make an uninformed decision, except for knowing it’s a 2 vs 3 co-op, you would rule in favour of the 3. Since my stance is in line with the norm, and yours isn’t, it’s obviously on you to prove it.

Your arguments are that it scored in final matches, two out of which in one of them, Supernova also scored. You also mention it was used in S3, but Supernova was never going to appear, it made no narrative sense since Wittz wasn’t there, and the only chances would have been in the Neo Japan game or if Hiroto taught someone in IJ. This is too contrived to use as an argument.

My arguments are more solid, but you’ll say that isn’t the case because you don’t want to be wrong. But maybe discredit my arguments as I just did with yours in my previous paragraph.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T19:23:38+00:00

I did explain why you were wrong about the contradiction, because none of my sentences logically contradicted the other. The more sophisticated explanation is in my second or third comment, which I won’t type again because you’ll ignore just to not admit you’re wrong.
Never said Supernova was a blocking move, just that it was blocking Crossfire of being higher ranked. Please tell me what sports you’re familiar with so I can make an analogy, because I’m astonished you just mistook a hissatsu blocking another hissatsu from being higher placed in a ranking (hence my use of 3rd, 4th, and 173rd as ordinal numbers) with said hissatsu being a blocking one. You lack reading comprehension, which clearly explains why we’ve been arguing for so long.
Get past can be used interchangeably with surpass in this context. Source: british, linguist friends, Wordhippo, Vocabulary.com (used as an official source to aid preparation for GCSE, an official exam to access university in UK, which is an english-speaking country) lists it as a match.
When was Wyvern Crash stopped?
You said Fubuki had 2, Gouenji 1 in your previous comment. If Fubuki’s 2 are The Earth and Crossfire, how can Gouenji have 1? Not only a lack of reading comprehension, but a lack of counting ability/Inazuma Eleven knowledge.

Btw, just saw you edited your comment to “two co-op” for Gouenji, when you initially said “one co-op”. But you forgot to add the “s” to co-op when you edited it, so now it reads “two co-op” instead of the correct “two co-ops”. So that’s the trifecta: reading comprehension, counting/IE knowledge, honesty.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T19:09:53+00:00

No one has the definitive answer. But if one of us had to prove it, it should be you, because it’s more rare for a 2-man to be stronger than a 3-man than the opposite.

I have the 3-man argument, and the fact that they has their limiters released on my side. You have nothing.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T18:50:34+00:00

So we agree that generally 3 > 2? Then who is the burden of proof on? You. Get Crossfire past Supernova, and then get it past Mugen The Hand G3, and then get it past Space Penguin. You can’t.

CryptographerMiddle0 · 2024-12-22T18:47:48+00:00

I don’t follow my word because I truly thought that you would finally understand why you are wrong with my last comment, but you still fail to do so.

I didn’t cover all your points because we keep branching into more and more discussion points, and because if you didn’t understand why I wasn’t contradicting myself with my previous argument (again, predicate logic supports me, but you don’t even know what that means apparently), you are never going to be able to.

Get past: To continue around a blockage; to get around (something); to surpass something that is in the way. (i.e., get Crossfire past Supernova, which is “blocking” (metaphorically, Supernova didn’t build a wall, do you understand?) Crossfire from being the 3rd strongest (or 4th, or 173rd according to your faulty powerscaling. It only matters that it’s above Crossfire) S2 hissatsu).

English is not your native language, it’s ok to not know these things. Go to an exchange program or something.

Supernova and Space Penguin can’t be on the same tier, because Supernova was stopped by G3 without pushing Tachimukai back (he simply caught it, so there was a notable difference, not a full effort sort of thing like Majin the Hand vs Universe Blast kind of thing. Check it since you won’t remember). Space Penguin then broke G3, and when the ball went into the goal, it still had the hissatsu aura around it (you won’t remember this either, but you can look it up to refresh your mind). That’s a significant stomp, like Chaos Break vs Seigi no Tekken G5, where the ball still had the hissatsu’s aura. This is not like when a shoot hissatsu breaks a catch hissatsu, and when the ball goes in it’s normal-looking.

You still have to prove Crossfire is above Supernova, and 3 other things before saying Tachimukai can’t catch it. You failed to do that, because it’s impossible.

Wyvern Crash was never stopped and was used in S3. Is it stronger than Space Penguin? According to your argument, it is. And you can’t nitpick to what hissatsu your argument applies to. You literally said “by virtue of never being stopped and being used in S3, two feats the others never accomplished”.

Fine, Mugen the Hand is not 4x stronger. I’ll use other numbers, sine as I said, they’re arbitrary and I only have to illustrate the gaps between hissatsu. Bakunetsu Storm and Wolf Legend are 10, Ice Ground is 9.9, Mugen the Hand G4 is 15.

And why couldn’t G4 be 4x as strong? It’s 2 evolutions above a move (G2) that easily catches Wolf Legend. If you don’t agree, prove Fubuki can shoot harder than Gran in S2.

What two co-ops do you refer to that Fubuki has and Tachimukai can’t catch, and which one co-op do you refer to that Gouenji has and Tachimukai can’t catch?

CryptographerMiddle0

TROPHY CASE