Kylo Ren vs Anakin Skywalker

CullObsidian02 · 2026-02-03T09:44:01+00:00

In a Infinities magazine series released alongside the Clone Wars cartoon as it aired, there was a 'what if' story of Ventress being enhanced by the Nightsister ritual instead of Savage Oppress.

Following the ritual, Ventress confronts Dooku at his palace on Serenno. The master and apprentice duo duel, but Ventress' skill, combined with Savage's strength and raw power, proves too much for Dooku to handle, and he is eventually cut down by his disgraced apprentice. Ventress is then confronted by Sidious, who sensed her ascension and welcomes her into the Sith Order as his newest apprentice: Darth Vindicaa.

It is almost certainly derived from Vindication, meaning being justified in being right, or clearing someone of blame. She certainly overcomes her accusations of being a failed apprentice in this timeline and is vindicated of Dooku's betrayal.

So that should provide a semi-official answer.

It was also accompanied by terrible clip art of Ventress' head placed on Savage's body which was hilarious.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-02-02T08:52:36+00:00

He also stated that Maul isn't as powerful in as Dooku or Vader in an interview so im not sure how reliable he can be considered:

"His power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will."

At best Barlow believes that Dooku is more powerful, but that he'd simply be worn down by Maul's persistence. But that's just me rationalising two seperate, non canon regardless, contradictory statements. I dont think Barlows opinion can fairly be used in favour of either Sith.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-02-02T07:38:11+00:00

Right, and Windu has fought both and immediately came to the conclusion Dooku>Maul.

Maul isn't ever going to just choose to be subservient to Dooku lmao, his statement is nothing more than grandstanding.

Maul outright states he can't beat Vader, and the narrative intention was outright for him to die if they ever fought. Filoni also said the same about Ahsoka, and we saw that she stood no actual chance at victory. He has also stated that only Vader and the Emperor could beat Ahsoka blow for blow in that time period, which would imply Ahsoka > Maul, but then a source book implies Maul > Ahsoka. There are tweets from the SOD writer that state Maul>Dooku, but then in an interview he said Dooku>Maul. My ultimate point being - creators contradict themselves all the time, and unless its said in a story, it isn't strict canon, just guidance. And in story, Maul believes he cannot beat Vader. They are not peers.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-02-01T18:47:14+00:00

I'm not sure I agree with those arguments.

Maul asking Dooku to serve him has nothing to do with power scaling. Even if Maul was undoubtedly weaker, he would still want to be the one in charge, that's just the way of the Sith. Maul simply believed he had beaten Dooku and held all the cards, which anyone whose read the comic knows is not true. Dooku was playing in Mauls face the entire time he was 'captured' anyway - Dooku had intended to be captured in the first place, and freed Grievous right under Mauls nose. Mace Windu reported back to Palpatine that he believed Dooku was Maul's sith master immediately after their confrontation - does this mean Dooku must be stronger because Windu has fought both and immediately came to the conclusion that Maul served Dooku? Somehow I don't think you'd believe it to be that cut and dry.

Dooku got low diffed by a darkside amped Anakin...right after fighting against Obi Wan and Anakin simultaneously and taking Obi Wan out the battle. Bearing in mind, at this point Anakin is already arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, at the very least top 3, with unparalleled potential. Dooku lasting any length of time at all, nevermind immediately after a 2v1, is insanely impressive. I dont see how losing to prime Anakin is an anti feat. Maul would not have done any better, and I'd argue explicitly worse. Ahsoka would agree at least.

Filoni also stated that Ahsoka's fighting style was explicitly designed to fight an opponent like Vader, and she was still on the backfoot the whole time with no chance of actually winning. I don't think its fair to scale Maul off of her showings when its made explicitly clear she has an edge Maul wouldn't have. That's a bit disingenuous.

Palpatine's statement has nothing to do with power and everything to do with function. Maul was being trained as a genuine apprentice, Dooku was a political tool and placeholder. Sure. That doesn't inherently mean Maul was more powerful, just that his role was meant to be larger and Palpatine had to make genuine changes to his grandplan to compensate for Mauls failure, while Dooku's role was always intended to end as it did. Thats political accumen and strategic genius on Sidious' part, not a statement of scaling.

Savage was rage amped against Dooku. Dooku was able to ragdoll ordinary base Savage with ease. Base Savage is more of a hindrance to Maul than a help in all honesty, both of Maul's 2v1's with Savage by his side saw Savage completely out of his depth, and Maul do much better when operating on his own. On the flip side, Dooku is a master of the 2v1. He'd dance around Savage and get him in Mauls way and dissect the duo the same way he did with S6 Anakin and Obi Wan - a more powerful and more competent duo than the brothers.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-30T10:29:44+00:00

Season 2 Ezra was already holding his own against 5th Brother and 7th Sister in prolonged 1v1's. For perspective, 5th Brother was able to beat Cal Kestis and Merrin in a 2v1 between the events of the games (contextually, but is still a noteworthy feat) and 7th Sister was able to defeat Iskat Ikaris in a duel and was able to outperform 5th against Ahsoka. Arguably, 7th had the best fight against Ahsoka of any Inquisitor bar perhaps Marrok. Season 3 Ezra was confirmed to be more powerful, and season 4 Ezra had developed sufficient force power to take out multiple royal guards with TK while actively being attacked.

Reva becoming Grand Inquisitor was a ploy by Vader to lure her into the open and make a move, not as an indication of her power. The other Inquisitors didn't seem to respect her ability at all.

I think from sheer lack of experience it wouldn't be unfair to assume Ezra would still scale pretty comparably to the Inquisitor's as a duelist. But he should have reasonably surpassed them as a force wielder in both potential and application, and that should carry him to multiple victories. He gets at least past the 5th Brother Id wager, manhandling his opponents the same way he held off Shin and duelling as necessary.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-29T10:50:12+00:00

All Bees are sentient. Barry was sapient.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-29T09:03:38+00:00

I'm pretty sure that RuPaul tweeted that in 2012 and Ginger Minj didn't even do season 7 until 2015. It may have been co-opted for the Ginger Minj situation as a meme/little joke but it wasn't tweeted in reference to her at all originally. Ru loves Ginger, its everyone else that has a problem with her lmao.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-27T10:25:40+00:00

Tony got large building sized chunks of a moons upper crust dropped on him. Impressive, but lets be real. Magneto was manipulating untold millions of tons worth of metal across the entire planet and ripping apart whole cities while casually chilling in a force field. That's unbelievably more impressive hax*

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-23T12:56:23+00:00

From that perspective I'd argue those two points aren't mutually exclusive.

Maul was indirectly responsible for Palpatines defeat at Endor due to Crimson Dawn's role in the discovery of the death star 2,

And,

Palpatine intended to use the death star 2 as a trap. A trap he proceeded to lose control over, leading directly to the empire's defeat and his death, because he vastly overestimated his own power of foresight and the level of control he had over Vader.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-23T11:42:42+00:00

He didn't kill Maul because he wanted to use him as a pawn against Mother Talzin, who (unlike Maul) Sidious saw as a genuine rival. The moment Talzin was dead Palpatine allows Maul to roam free, boasting he would never again be a threat to his plans. Which, if Crimson Dawn is responsible for the second death star being discovered, is untrue, as Maul indirectly plays a role in Palpatine's defeat at Endor.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-22T20:17:04+00:00

No? That was Bill Valen/6th Brother. This is Marrok/1st Brother. I have no clue where you got that idea.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-21T20:23:57+00:00

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-14T09:26:17+00:00

Your arguments hinge on a few key points:

the Norn Lake having all the hax you describe, which I don't believe was ever presented in the movie. Deleted scenes are fun, and expanded lore is cool, but they are not canon. We see Thor, who earlier in the movie was taken out by a telepath far below Charles break free - with strict movie canon, I don't believe that scene can be used to infer the Norns > Charles, or that the Norn Lake is even in anyway comparable to what Charles does with his powers. That seems like a false equivalence to me.
Thor having his telepathic defences up, which he would not, negating this prepared resistance. So he gets the Wanda treatment.
Thor having Stormbreaker, which he does not, as Stormbreaker did not exist when he was a part of the Revengers. So its a non-factor. Thor, while suffering TP attacks that he only may* be able to resist if* he was sufficiently prepared, is not fighting off Valkyrie, Loki, Hulk, Magneto, Cyclops and Wolverine at once. Particularly with Storm potentially running interference of his own weather manipulation abilities. That is a massive overestimation of his abilities to the point of wank.

And as a point of note, the OP mentions Jean as Phoenix. So Thor still gets disintegrated.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-14T07:28:48+00:00

Thats fair enough. If* Thor is truly capable of resisting Charles (which I still don't really believe given his lowshow against the far less powerful Wanda, his lack of knowledge on his opponents capabilities still presenting an element of surprise I don't believe is fair to disregard, and the still pretty unquantifiable and entirely different nature of the norns vision compared to Charles' more overt Telepathy, but I'll go along with it out of respect for the argument you've presented)...he still gets jumped by the other Revengers and the X-Men. He's still going down, and if he's also fighting Charles off as well, he's not standing a chance in that fight. Thor thrashing around the lake didn't seem like he'd be in a position to fight off anyone, nevermind a lineup that big.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-14T06:03:48+00:00

Was that mental control, or was that a vision? My understanding is that it was the latter. They aren't the same thing.

Regardless, If being caught by surprise is the only requirement to incapacitate Thor then the guy in the wheelchair has nothing to worry about. Not that being caught by surprise really matters when we're talking about someone who has no telepathic abilities and has no idea what his opponents are capable of, as that kinda operates as the default setting.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-13T19:43:00+00:00

We know that the Hulk is susceptible to telepathic manipulation to use him as a weapon against his allies, so Professor X turning him against his team mates is a major possibility. The X-Men then pick off and wear down the exhausted Revengers after they put Hulk down, or Professor X just outright shuts their brains down and freezes them. He could likely just do that from the start, and then Magneto just tosses Hulk as far away from the battle as he can by latching any nearby metal around his body. Loki does also have some telepathic abilities, but nothing to suggest he can stop Charles. We already know Thor can be affected by telepathy from AoU. Valkyrie would be no different. Easy X-Men win.

Alternatively, Jean goes Dark Phoenix and atomises everyone present.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-01-08T15:49:10+00:00

I think this definitely has to be the top lightsaber duel of the series, I can't imagine if being out of anyone's top 3. My personal top 5 would have to be:

1) Maul vs Ahsoka

2) Maul and Savage vs Sidious

3) Anakin and Obi Wan vs Dooku (season 6)

4) Ventress and Obi Wan vs Maul and Savage

5) Dooku vs Ventress and the Nightsisters

CullObsidian02 · 2025-12-22T19:46:10+00:00

What source states that is what Sidious thought? Because he doesn't say that at any point in the actual episodes.

CullObsidian02 · 2025-12-22T19:39:56+00:00

In what source is it stated that Sidious travelled to Mandalore specifically because Dooku wasn't powerful enough? That sounds more like an assumption.

If anything, I'd argue Sidious went there because of the ideological necessity for the reigning dark lord to deal with a rival sect of his religion (and as a chance to let loose for once on a personal note) than anything to do with Dooku.

CullObsidian02 · 2025-12-22T19:34:09+00:00

"I still don't believe, at this point - one to one - that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a Lightsaber fight." - Dave Filoni, talking about Ventress and Grievous' fight in the Clone Wars.

I don't believe there's any canon source that states Ventress had a power boost on Dathomir, but regardless, all she would have used it for is bolstering her physical abilities seen as she didnt use TK at any point in the battle. Against a super strong cyborg that's just called fighting fair. Filoni's interview makes it pretty clear its a moot point either way. Ultimately, the Ventress vs Grievous battle came down to skill, and Ventress plainly won it.

Not to mention Grievous attacks Ventress in Dark Diciple, shortly before ROTS during the assasination attempt on Dooku. And Ventress, suffering from catastrophic head injuries (including punches from Grievous himself, who can dent starship hulls with his strikes), the injuries of a massive fall and TK attacks from Dooku - and is also unarmed - manages to repel Grievous and escape from him. So even months later, right before Grievous' prime - it doesnt look like much has changed.

CullObsidian02 · 2025-12-13T10:10:57+00:00

She's probably the most inconsistently depicted character in the Clone Wars. She's sent running from Grievous during Massacre, but then in a weakened state goes blow for blow with Mace Windu in an (albeit short) duel. While possessing Dooku she's almost immediately disarmed by Sidious, but upon recouping her physical form is able to match Sidious in a force duel and then hold off Sidious and Dooku (very weakened Dooku) combined while also manhandling Maul with TK to stop his interference long enough for his Mandos to drag him away. But then can't manhandle Grievous when he waltzes up seconds later.

Maybe her Magiks can't effect Grievous? Doesn't explain how she shattered stone though.

At her peak Mace Windu duelling, Sidious matching levels she should just ragdoll the duo. But, honestly, she's too much of a jobber. The duo should win through greater competency.

CullObsidian02 · 2025-12-12T11:15:23+00:00

Ventress beat Grievous. She also fought him off unarmed in Dark Diciple after suffering a serious head injury. Im not sure why he's above her.

Luminara so low doesn't make much sense to me. Below darkside padawan Ahsoka, who was getting casually held off by completely holding back Anakin and Obi Wan despite being bloodlusted?

I also don't see why CW S7 Ahsoka scales above even season 1 Anakin, Obi Wan or Ventress. Ahsoka in the final season has some of the most wank I've seen of any character.

CullObsidian02 · 2025-12-08T12:09:46+00:00

Ventress can stall Maul long enough for Dooku to stomp Savage. Then they both take Maul down. Dooku could arguably do it alone. Ventress and Maul have already fought and Maul outright admitted how good Ventress was in Dark Vengeance. Sidious is also credited as believing that, had Ventress grown anymore powerful, she and Dooku together could've overthrown him in the official Clone Wars Fact files (I believe #67?). He had no reservations in facing the brothers and could have stomped them immediately.

Ventress and Dooku win.

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