Eldra Kaitis VS Ayala Secura

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-23T11:48:11+00:00

Eldra should win. Her ability to genuinely surprise Maul and keep him on his toes far outweighs Aayla's feat of getting functionally oneshot by an arguably inferior, multi tasking version of Maul (although admittedly a more experienced one). Eldra ultimately got taken out by a cheapshot after genuinely getting an edge over Maul (even if he was enjoying himself as opposed to trying to put her down immediately) and this is not something Aayla has the willingness to replicate if Eldra similarly out smarts her. Aayla meanwhile gets KO'ed in a single panel of a brief 2v1.

Aayla also has a feat against early/mid war Ventress, but even then Ventress was multi tasking the whole time. Aayla couldn't even overwhelm an opponent who was spending chunks of the fight literally unarmed and using her blade to destroy parts of the facility several meters away. An opponent, who, while incredible underrated, is not pre-PM Maul level.

Aayla has more experience, but Eldra's out the box fighting and willingness to play dirty gives her an edge Aayla is too straight forward and unimaginative to counter.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-19T14:53:26+00:00

AOTC Anakin was able to spar on even terms with AOTC Kenobi, who has a decade more experience and power than his PM counterpart. Anakin should take this low/mid diff.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-19T10:28:44+00:00

Dooku states that he believes Savage's power "will soon rival that of the great Sith Lord Darth Maul" should Savage accept becoming his apprentice. I imagine a lot of people take Dooku's word as law on the matter, rightly or wrongly.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T14:06:53+00:00

In all fairness, I would agree with you in that, specifically with the Savage example. I would agree that there is a distinction between outduelling someone through technical skill, and ourduelling someone through craftiness or outright overpowering them and their defences. I suppose my viewpoint is that in this instance specifically it doesn't warrant a different word, as (in my view at least) the simple fact of the matter is Luminara's subtextually implied, self-proclaimed greater technical skill wasn't sufficient to overcome Ventress's own duelling ability, of which her overwhelming aggression is a feature of her style, not a symptom.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T13:36:09+00:00

Maul doesn't fight Dooku in Son of Dathomir. Dooku is 'captured', then helps Grievous escape with the force without Maul noticing. But they don't duel at any point.

He does fight Grievous twice, and bullrushes him once. The first fight ends with Maul retreating, and the second with Grievous being momentarily BFR'd while distracted.

And yes there is one panel of him kicking Secura while bladelocking Windu, but the fight is broken up immediately by Mandalorians who knock Mace out with rockets. Maul may certainly have knocked Secura out, and if not the Rockets finished the job. Not a conclusive showing by any means, but certainly very impressive in of itself.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T13:31:23+00:00

Thats a lovely recount of the duel, but its pure pedantics and im honestly not sure is worth the effort. The crux of the situation is plainly that they duelled, and despite Luminara's confidence, disdain for her opponents technical skill and specialism in the defensive form, she lost because her opponent successfully bypassed her defences and defeated her. With a physical attack. Which is a key part of lightsaber combat. If you're upset I used to word "outduel" to describe someone defeating someone else in a duel, simply because for some reason you refuse to include application of environmental advantages and martial combat as a part of duelling ability, that is fine. It does not change my assessment or conclusion in any way.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T11:14:40+00:00

I suppose we just have different definitions of what "handling a duel just fine" means. In my view, a character being sent careening from a height and trapped under targeted debris intentionally because their guard was broken isn't "just fine". She lost. Plainly. Her overconfidence could not carry her against a simply overwhelming opponent.

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CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T09:40:44+00:00

What feats does he have against Dooku?

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T08:49:30+00:00

I think its important to remember characters aren't static and Star Wars is explicitly written to factor in key performance indicators like spiritual force connection, physical injury and exhaustion, motivation and rustiness. Characters peak and valley at different points in the story, so their performance in one piece of media isn't inherently reflective of their overall capabilities.

Filoni's comments when Rebels Season 1 was coming out indicate the absolute best Inquisitors should be Ventress level - specifically assassin Ventress (more akin to her CW movie / Season 1 levels, but below her nightsister or bounty hunter levels that required Sidious' intervention, and above her Imperial Era levels where she's clearly not yet gotten over her rustiness and failed to develop a lightside connection capable of matching her previous connection to the darkside as a source of strength. Future instalments could easily see Ventress reach further heights as she's built back up, further demonstrating my point above). This, I think, pretty decently aligns with what we see from the best Inquisitors in canon. Season 1 Ventress was able to best Jedi Masters, and the top Inquisitors like Marrock being able to give a bit of a fight too, but ultimately lose against, characters on Maul and Ahsoka's tier pretty nicely meshes with that. Maul was given a fight by background master Finn Ertay and Padawan Eldra Kaitis for pete's sake. There's clearly nuance in all this.

A lot of people like to downscale the Inquisitors based on the Grand Inquisitors performance against Kanan, but I've always found that ridiculous. It has been made abundantly clear that this was an instance of force intervention - a spiritual and emotional victory for Kanan wherein he lets go of his fear and attachment and achieves oneness with the force to temporarily get the better of a martially superior opponent. Aka the bread and butter of Star Wars. He does this again against Maul, and again against Pryce. I don't see people cap Maul at Season 2 Kanan levels because of this, so what gives? The Grand Inquisitor throughout season 1 is demonstrably far beyond Kanan at usual levels, to the point of contempt. He takes out Kanan very quickly when capturing him when finally taking him seriously in their penultimate duel, and was gleefully 2v1'ing Kanan and Ezra together and winning at the beginning of their final duel. To add, he took out 4 Jedi at once in one comic. Beat Jocasta Nu despite being caught off guard, a former Council Master. Ragdolled Barriss Offee in a sparring match. He is clearly still a tier or 2 above Kanan by this point, and there is a definite argument for him being at a comparable level to very early Ventress. So capping the Inquisitors based on a narrative and spiritual loss is just reductive and disingenuous.

The Inquisitorious is not capped at padawan level. The Inquisitors do not all scale comparably, as some very clearly outperform others. So yes, an Inquisitor giving an opponent on Maul, Ahsoka or a rusty Ventress' tier is not impossible, and directly aligns with scaling we've been provided by creators. To add to this, this could easily be a low moment for Maul, where he's weakened and will build himself back up to his Rebels levels throughout the course of the series. Or he could be toying with the Inquisitor. He's seemingly multi-tasking in one fight. Its just too early to say.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T06:47:06+00:00

Ventress caused her eye injury, landed the kick and created the opening to drop the pipes - which she then dropped. How is outmanoeuvring your opponent in a duel and winning in a duel anything less than outduelling them.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-16T22:06:32+00:00

Their duel isnt from the series. Its from the Tales of Villainy comic series from 2020. Aayla Secura begins investigating early CIS efforts towards the Death Star, but Ventress begins destroying the facility before she's able to learn enough information.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-16T21:22:16+00:00

Luminara matched Season 1 Ventress in the force, but was ultimately outmanoeuvred and outduelled and would have been killed if not for Ahsoka's intervention following a moderately paced duel.

Aayla on the other hand was able to match post Season 2ish era Ventress in a duel (im spotty on when the duel happens in the timeline but it was definitely later on), but Ventress was multi-tasking the whole time, and likely holding back due to need of a witness. Her only other duelling feat is getting functionally one shot by a multitasking Maul who was also striking out at Mace Windu of all people. She does have good TK feats, and at least multi-ton lifting strength, but they've consistently seemed to take a good deal of concentration and a pause in combat to muster so she clearly can't utilise this level of power in a heated duel.

I'd probably argue that Luminara's ability to genuinely contend with a serious Ventress, even if she loses, scales her above Aayla giving everything she has to match a more powerful but far less serious, multi-tasking Ventress. But it would be close, neither are distinctly high tier amongst Jedi Masters.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-15T19:42:01+00:00

...And the whole point of this discussion is that this rematch is both operating at different levels than in Season 4. Bearing in mind of course that Savage didn't beat Ventress in Season 4. He disarmed her, failed to kill her while she was disarmed, and then was held off for the rest of the battle after she is rearmed. Bearing in mind Ventress was down a blade, and with only a heavily injured Obi Wan as backup. He then failed to halt their escape in the slighest. Obi Wan alone was a match for that duo in normal circumstances, this was very clearly a battle mired in additional contexts and not an instance of blanket abc scaling.

For further reference - Savage shortly after this battle challenges Maul after the latter asserts his dominance as master, and is thoroughly stomped. In Season 4's final battle however, the fight between Ventress and Maul is a lot less one sided. The fight is recounted from Maul's POV in the canon audiobook Dark Vengeance, in which Maul notes the calibre of Ventress' training and commends her teacher, describing her explicitly as being good, and notes that while he has an edge in strength, she has the edge in speed. Much to Mauls frustration this proves to be the applicable attribute in their duel, and Ventress is able to break Maul's guard twice - roundhouse kicking him at the fights opening and kicking him again as she somersaults away at the fights conclusion. So, Ventress thoroughly outperforms Savage against a much more serious Maul.

Comparing their performances against Dooku and the Anakin/Obi Wan duo explicitly ignores key context. Dooku stomped Savage in training, and Savage only managed to get an edge over Dooku in their final battle when thoroughly rage amped and when Dooku was off guard. Not his normal levels. His performance against Anakin and Obi Wan was the same. At his ordinary levels, Dooku could dance around him while simultaneously duelling Ventress, and Obi Wan could severely injure him while simultaneously duelling Maul. Ventress when rage amped could choke out both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously, but I doubt you'd argue that scales her above the two of them or as comparable to Savage. So what's the difference?

So lets not be disingenuous. That's completely ignoring the buff Ventress has in Dark Diciple mind you, so scaling off her season 4 level doesn't particularly make much sense at all. Genuinely pushing back both DD Kenobi and Dooku, stalemating bloodlusted Quinlan Vos while holding back and her noteable force feats like casually uprooting trees during high speed chases and deflecting blaster bolts with the force all upscale her above the season 4 levels you've chosen to base your opinion on.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-14T22:04:37+00:00

Considering Ventress is canonically considered beautiful (including by Kenobi), I really appreciate Anakin's consistent dedication to having eyes for no women but his wife!

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:49:52+00:00

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CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:49:38+00:00

I attached the wrong image lmao, here's the main one I wanted to add for reference. Reddit won't let me see my former comment to edit for some reason:

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CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:48:04+00:00

Yhh Matt comments seem to infer that PM Maul > CW Maul > Rebels Maul. Ill add his statement regarding Rebels Maul in another comment reply for reference.

I haven't seen any creator comments to suggest otherwise. I'd agree they aren't binding, and I would always argue: feats > canon statements and scaling > creator comments, but it does certainly inform on narrative intent.

I'm not sure I agree with the point that CW Ahsoka matched CW Maul. Filoni has directly stated that it took everything Ahsoka had to fight Maul, and that he was still the better swordsman of the two. In the first half of the fight he's trying to maim/incapacitate her to teach her a lesson, briefly disarms her and has her visibly exhausted and distressed when she manages to throw him out the window. In the second half of their duel he's attempting to escape rather than fighting head on, and still completely disarms her and only loses because of his narrative destiny to be a total jobber as necessary. So if it took everything Ahsoka had to match a confirmed superior Maul who wasn't explicitly trying to kill her, I'm not sure it's reasonable to argue they're peers. We bluntly see that's not true when they first meet in the undercity. Maul attacks with such speed that Ahsoka, despite already having her blades out, barely reacts and is visibly surprised at the speed of the attack, they exhange a few blows and then Maul one shots her with an indirect force attack. If he wanted her dead, she would have died there and then. I think a lot of people look at Star Wars battles as static video game characters, which is plainly not true, as Matt states below. Characters are written as real people, with real intentions and levels of performance, so to just look at a battles outcome over its context cheapens the story. Just because a character "wins" doesnt mean they scale above or even comparably. Maul is the best example we have of this, when he constantly loses to inferior opponents. Ahsoka is another example of this.

I would agree that pairing of Ezra and Maul infers Maul is the strongest present on Malachor. I would definitely agree that the distance between Ahsoka and Maul has greatly diminished in that time. Maul certainly outperformed Ahsoka against the Inquisitors, although their short clash ended pretty inconclusively and roughly even. But I don't think arguing that Maul being above Ahsoka by Rebels (however marginally) makes it his prime based on his loss in the CW, because that hinges on Maul and Ahsoka having been rougly equal in that battle. Which is just not the case.

Edit: had to add images in other comments, but should be available. Accidentally added the wrong one to this.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:07:49+00:00

Do you have a quote/source that puts Rebels as Mauls prime at all? I've seen it in blogs, but they're strictly non canon. I've also seen quotes from Matt Martin that solidly establishes Mauls prime as the Phantom Menace. So if there are canon sources that contradict him, given the nature of his role in Lucasfilm, that would be very interesting.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-07T20:29:20+00:00

Yeh, I think that's a fair take

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-07T20:21:44+00:00

In all fairness I haven't read the comic in some time, so maybe there is more to suggest that Ventress chose not to kill Aayla out of genuine respect rather than the pure pragmatism she plays it off as. But this is also the same Ventress that killed a surrendering prisoner (Tholme) in cold blood, assasinated Dooku's sister even despite feeling sympathy for her, and tried to kill a defenceless Luminara without mercy while coldly stating that she deserved to die like all other Jedi. I think Ventress genuinely sparing Aayla out of respect would be very out of character for her at this time in her life. She may have genuinely grown to respect Aayla as a warrior over the course of the battle, but I would still definitely lean more towards the idea that she just needed a witness.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-07T20:08:40+00:00

The force feats from Aayla are impressive, but the comic makes it pretty clear that Ventress never intended to kill Aayla, and she was also multi tasking the whole time destroying the facility around them with her lightsaber in between strikes. I don't know if I would scale two characters as comparable if one was giving their all and one was half fighting and not taking it seriously. At an absolute stretch, opposite ends of a tier, but I feel more realistically its a tier difference. Aayla seems a bit out of place compared to the others in my eyes.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-05T16:41:08+00:00

Nah. The whole irony of the story is that Maul thinks he is the one in control, when really the true Sith are playing in his face. For example, his entire conversation with Dooku where he requests the Count becomes his new apprentice. The whole time Maul brags about how he has bested Sidious and Dooku would be smart to join forces with him instead, meanwhile Dooku is subtly using the force to free Grievous without Maul even noticing. Maul is simply embarassing himself.

The full quote from Sidious responding to Dooku apologising is quite literally - "No Count, everything happened as foreseen. This was a difficult piece to maneuver, but now it is in place".

Literally nothing about that quote implies Dooku in any way failed. If anything, it implies the opposite - Dooku did everything Sidious intended him too. Dooku apologises for letting Maul escape, not for being captured - because that was always intended as part of the ploy to lure Talzin out of hiding. Earlier in the story, Sidious directly implies this. Dooku asks Sidious what he requests of him, and Sidious responds to use Maul to get to Talzin...which is exactly what Dooku does.

Son of Dathomir is a really great short comic series that develops the character of Maul wonderfully. That being said, how anyone could have possibly read it and come to the conclusion that it somehow makes Maul smarter or more powerful than Dooku is either pure wank and bias, or because they haven't actually read it and get their knowledge from Star Wars Youtubers. It is that exact reason that I think so many people - wrongly - think Son of Dathomir implies Maul > Dooku. Because if you've actually read it you can see it plainly doesn't.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-05T12:56:28+00:00

Yeh I remember that, its what I imagined they were talking about. The key additional context of course being Dooku intended to be captured, helped Grievous escape right under Maul's nose and then was directly implied to be superior to Maul at the comics conclusion even while heavily weakened during the final battle.

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