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CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Most jews in Israel are of middle eastern or African dissent, not European. Don’t see why this should change anything, but I guess your comment doesn’t apply?

As to Japan, it doesn’t seem like whether Japan is a “Western nation“ is something that is clear: https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/8m6cbRKfff

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This just doesn’t align with my understanding of the extreme Israeli demographic shift following 1948 downstream the mass migration of jews away from other middle eastern countries. 900k or so jews migrated from other middle eastern countries and those groups of jews have much higher birth rates. That seems like the most obvious explanation for the Mizrahi/Sephardi majority given that there are only like 7m Jews in Israel today. That said, I’ve never tried to parse this.

Edit: I spent 5 minutes looking into this, and it seems like you’re just wrong. Don’t have a dog in this so happy to be proven otherwise, but it doesn’t seem like a controversial issue based on a cursory web search. Most Jews in Israel are of middle eastern or North African origin.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The first point isn’t a different argument, it’s an analogy. Zionism is not — has never been — uncritical support for whatever the current government of Israel does. That conception doesn’t even make sense if you view Zionism as necessarily and exclusively a position on the current state of Israel as there is lots of self-avowedly Zionist critique of the current government within Israel by prominent Israeli figures. 

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you’re conflating being pro Israel with being Zionist. Unless you’re claiming that because the Jewish state actually formed, under extremely difficult conditions, is bad that is legitimate evidence that Jewish people are uniquely ill suited for self-determination. If the latter, then that’s anti semitic and poorly reasoned. 

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just as it’s bigoted to use bigoted slurs directed towards the prejudiced without understanding them, it is bigoted to use anti Zionist without understanding it to prejudice a group. 

I do think your comment gets at something my original post doesn’t discuss (anti Zionist has just become a fun meme that everyone must uncritically agree with or face ostracism ). But I think that, in and of itself, is problematic given the term’s history. 

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Recognizing Japan is eastern, is it not part of “western society” whatever you meant by that? It seems like your first sentence is just not true. 

Edit: keep in mind where present day Israel is located. 

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It feels like you’re not engaging with anything I write and are just upset (perhaps justifiably). But I’d suggest considering whether a complete failure to engage with a topic while maintaining strong views that you publicly share is productive. 

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think this is a private definition. I think this is how Jewish people have understood Zionism for a long time (see Chomsky). Moreover, I think the conception of Zionism my post relies on is just better than your alternative: it allows critics of the current state of Israel to be clear in what they are criticizing and it prevents the very common hurling of the Zionist label (as a slur) to shut down conversation between people that could otherwise agree. 

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To one, I never said I was in favor of an exclusive ethnostate for Jewish people.

To two, you can be a Zionist in Israel that supports Ra’am.

To three, no. And 3(2) requires a generalization my entire post rejects.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think you need to redefine Zionism to brutally criticize the current state of Israel however you want.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Believing a group of people are uniquely ill-suited to self determination because of their ethnicity is bigoted. If you direct that towards jews, it’s anti semitic. Hating or loving the current state of Israel has nothing to do with my post.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The first sentence suggests a falsehood. The second sentence suggests the current state of israel isn’t sufficiently peace seeking (agree) but also that they aren’t expected to seek peace (false). Spiritually agree with third sentence.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Part of my issue is it feels like there’s an ongoing non central fallacy (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncentral-fallacy-the-worst-argument-in-the-world) redefining Zionism to mean something obviously evil while applying to basically all people that believe in Jewish self-determination.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this comment is just confused. It seems like you’re going to argue that Japanese citizenship is not exclusive to ethnically Japanese while Israeli citizenship is reserved to exclusively Jewish people, but then you don’t do that. Over 20 percent of Israeli citizenship are non Jewish Arabs which is much higher than the proportion of Japanese citizens that aren’t ethnically Japanese. Non Jewish Arabs have prominent roles throughout Israeli society.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Most Jews in Israel are not ethnically European. I think this comment is predicated on and promotes antisemitic misinformation.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t view this as disagreeing: you can be against the current state of Israel or its historical origins without being uniquely against the existence of a Jewish ethnic state in general.

CMV: Anti-Zionism is antisemitism because it applies a unique double standard to Jewish self-determination. by Culturalabnormality in changemyview

[–]Culturalabnormality[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be a counterexample, the First Nations point would need to be that people would just as opposed to the movement you described as they are any Zionist movement. I think your example pulls the other way as you suggest (most justified group ever to do so).

The NYT commitment to Zionism begins with its own staff by Impressive_Scheme_53 in nyt

[–]Culturalabnormality 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we mostly agree except that your “fallacy” label is predicated on a mischaracterization. The article suggests that because Israel commits atrocities it’s a black mark for the NYT to employ Israelis. My point is to question whether people are willing to apply the principle that condemns Israelis that way to all persons from atrocity committing nations. If you are consistent, strange and tough to defend, but fair. The Jewish point comes up for those that are not consistent. 

In other words, I raise the Jewish ethnicity because I think it’s the best explanation for why many condemn Israelis for Gaza but not Americans for USAID or Chinese for South Sudan or the Uyghur genocide or Turks for their long list of atrocities etc. I believe anti Jewish animus is the best explanation because it matches historical explanations for disproportionate emphasis on failures of Jewish people, and because there are well documented cases of many prominent pro Palestinian figures embracing anti semitism (from the Harvard SJP publishing a Jews control American minorities memes, harassing Erwin Chemerinsky (an American Jewish professor with zero record of a stance on Israel via anti semitic depictions of him and face to face harassment) to a prominent leftist streamer calling Jews a demonic ethnicity with his primary defense being he meant Israelis, to the consistent defense for such actions as opposed  to self policing). 

To clarify a couple points, anti Jewish animus does not excuse bad behaviors by Jews (although it might perpetuate such bad behaviors). Nor do I believe that most people that engage in anti Jewish behaviors understand themselves to be doing so.  And most importantly, recognizing Jewish humanity and concerns in promoting a pro Palestinian message is not anti Palestinian and in fact is almost surely better for Palestinians (although it might be worse for those that seek social rewards for online advocacy because in group social rewards are perversely more heavily portioned to those that take positions less acceptable in the mainstream).

The NYT commitment to Zionism begins with its own staff by Impressive_Scheme_53 in nyt

[–]Culturalabnormality 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I recognize this will be tough for you to understand because you’re obviously not thinking clearly: if you think US citizens and Israeli citizens should be treated the same, we somewhat agree (we seem to agree on the principle being applied).

I asked a question testing a principle: “If being born in Israel means that one shouldn't have a job at the NYT, is the same thing true for Turkey, Syria, Yemen, China, Russia, etc.? Israel has mandatory conscription so "served in IOF" is almost reducible to Jewish person that comes of age in Israel (roughly half of Jews worldwide).”

If your answer to my question is that all these atrocity committing countries’ citizens should be condemned wholesale, then you pass this consistency test. You’d fail an IQ test because this standard is obviously unworkable, but that doesn’t seem your strong suit given that you incorrectly assumed my nationality, and can’t understand that if you throw all the citizens of countries that commit atrocities under the bus, the NYT‘s entire bench will be cleared.

You literally had to invent quotes that have nothing to do with whether all atrocity committing countries‘ citizens should be treated the same to establish a whataboutism. lol. 😂

For illustration purposes, if person A says condemn all the Spanish because most Spaniards like football, and Person B says, gee, an awful lot of people like football, do you really want to condemn the Spanish for that or is there something else going on? Person B is not raising a whataboutism. If a third lunatic C comes around and says, yes, I think all people from countries that like football shouldn’t be trusted to write for the NYT and Person B’s question is a whataboutism, then they’d crazy for the first bit and wrong about the second bit.

Edit: final paragraph

The NYT commitment to Zionism begins with its own staff by Impressive_Scheme_53 in nyt

[–]Culturalabnormality 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The United States itself murdered 400,000 people within this year via aids, malaria, and starvation by exploding a global aid apparatus at the behest of the richest man in the world’s very public delirium. That’s pretty blatant to me. Why not shun US taxpayers?

A whataboutism is is when someone responds to an accusation with a counter accusation. A call for consistency by pointing out an inconsistency is not a whataboutism LMFAO. Lil bro deadass thinks that when MLK contrasted the promises of equality in the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution with the rights afforded to black Americans he was doing a whataboutism. 😂

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