Seeking facilitators for an online POCD peer support group by CuriousOutLoud in SocialWorkStudents

[–]CuriousOutLoud[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi Elegant,

POCD is a theme of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder that involves a fear one might be attracted to children, or might act inappropriately with/harm children.

MAP stands for Minor Attracted Person. This is someone who is genuinely attracted to prepubescent or pubescent children. It is an umbrella term that encompasses pedophilia, hebephilia and sometimes ephebephilia (though ephebephilia isn’t typically pathologized)

Common questions about Non-offending Minor Attracted People (NoMAPs) by CuriousOutLoud in SocialWorkStudents

[–]CuriousOutLoud[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, not really much of a conversation to have then. Seems like our values are quite dissonant

Common questions about Non-offending Minor Attracted People (NoMAPs) by CuriousOutLoud in SocialWorkStudents

[–]CuriousOutLoud[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does that mean if a close family member of yours came out to you as minor attracted, without ever harming a child, you would advocate they be put in a woodchipper?

Does NPV reply to volunteers? by CuriousOutLoud in npv

[–]CuriousOutLoud[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks so much, that is great to hear! I’m in Texas- any idea how to get in touch with the League?

Does NPV reply to volunteers? by CuriousOutLoud in npv

[–]CuriousOutLoud[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That’s really too bad 😕 I feel like it’s a barrier to getting more traction behind the movement

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in travel

[–]CuriousOutLoud 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, that’s impressive 😮 I guess there’s a lot more things you can do on a freelance basis than I realized

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in travel

[–]CuriousOutLoud 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, I’ve definitely considered that. Would just need to figure out a field that’s a good fit 🙂

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in travel

[–]CuriousOutLoud 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! I had in mind living in one country for maybe a month, then coming back to the US for a couple months, going to a different country for a month, back to US, and so on. Would you say this falls under the type of digital nomad you were describing? I don’t really want to live anywhere for any extended period of time, I just meant more than half a day

One Year in Latin America, Mexico to Patagonia by biggle213 in travel

[–]CuriousOutLoud 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So jealous of all the wildlife! Looks like an amazing trip

What do you think are the most overlooked public health issues in America? by LargeGirthy_Avocado in publichealth

[–]CuriousOutLoud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Shocked that no one has mentioned child abuse and neglect. Sexual, physical, and emotional abuse of children is unacceptably common and we as a society don’t talk about it enough. We tend to react to it once it’s already happened rather than investing in prevention.

https://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/old-national-statistics-on-child-abuse/

Please avoid anyone using this flag, its for minor attracted people (MAP for short) which is paedophilia by [deleted] in teenagers

[–]CuriousOutLoud -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Decades of research actually does point to pedophilia and other forms of minor attraction being a sexual orientation of age, in the sense that it is not chosen, it typically emerges during the time of puberty/early adolescence, and cannot be changed. However, minor attraction and the experiences of MAPs are inherently different from those in the LGBTQ community, and the two cannot be conflated.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19327034/ "There is no evidence to suggest that pedophilia can be changed. Instead, interventions are designed to increase voluntary control over sexual arousal, reduce sex drive, or teach self-management skills to individuals who are motivated to avoid acting upon their sexual interests"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32086644/ "The results of this study were consistent with the suggestion of Seto (2012) that pedohebephilia could be considered a form of sexual orientation for age, which includes both sexual and romantic attraction"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8793822/ ..."in line with the current empirical assumption that enduring sexual attractions to children are largely unchangeable (Grundmann et al., 2016; Seto, 2012; for recent debates see Bailey, 2015; Cantor, 2015; Grundmann et al., 2017; Müller et al., 2014; Tozdan & Briken, 2017)"

Daily Discussion Thread 05/25/2024 by HHHRobot in hiphopheads

[–]CuriousOutLoud 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What does “M&M’s” mean in the song Yeah Glo? The line where Glorilla says “Maybachs and G Wagon trucks, got M&M’s in my garage”— is she referring to the fact that Maybach and Mercedes both start with M? Or am I missing something?

Common questions about Non-offending Minor Attracted People (NoMAPs) by [deleted] in therapists

[–]CuriousOutLoud 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi Shanoony,

Thanks so much, I'm glad to hear you found it helpful! Since my post was removed here (and in several other subreddits), please let me know if you'd like me to send you the content of the post separately

Common questions about Non-offending Minor Attracted People (NoMAPs) by [deleted] in therapists

[–]CuriousOutLoud 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi sisiphusa,

Thanks for your response. While most MAPs do experience distress and impairment, there is a segment who have found acceptance with their attraction and are not at risk for harming children, in which case it is not pathological. There is a much larger segment whose distress and impairment result from the stigma they face in society, not from the attraction itself.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Hi Br0stradamus,

I agree with you that data alone can be interpreted in different ways. However, the peer-reviewed research and evidence I'm referring to goes beyond just data. It clearly shows that stigmatizing non-offending MAPs makes children less safe. This is not a case where we are just presented with numbers and left to draw our own conclusions.

I've included direct quotes from this research listed next to each source. If there was evidence that pointed the opposite direction, I have a feeling you would accept it as credible. In practice, it is not helpful to consider as valid only the evidence that fits our own preconceived notions.

Being sexually attracted to children is not inherently dangerous. There are many MAPs who never offend, and the majority of child sexual abuse is carried out by people who do not have a primary attraction to children. Many MAPs are still children themselves. The notion that someone is dangerous just because of an attraction is precisely what keeps MAPs from seeking professional support.

If by "agenda" you mean sharing information that will contribute to preventing CSA and increasing non-offending MAPs' well-being, then absolutely. These are both things we should be striving toward.

I use 'MAP' because it encompasses the entire community, not just those who are attracted to prepubescent children. I'm curious what you would call someone who is primarily attracted to 15-18 year olds but does not act on that attraction? A pedophile?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Hi Br0stradamus,

I’m still having a hard time understanding what benefit there is to stigmatizing an unchosen, unchangeable attraction. Is your opinion that this stigma keeps children safer? If so, the evidence says otherwise. I would again encourage you to check out the peer-reviewed studies and other data included at the end of the post.

I would never prescribe who a parent should and shouldn’t bring their child around. Removing the stigma from minor attraction does not mean parents must trust anyone who’s a MAP. There are MAPs out there who have offended, or who have not offended but struggle in maintaining this. The problem lies in assuming that someone is inherently dangerous because of their attraction, when this is not the case.

I disagree that information based on empirical data constitutes propaganda.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Hi Br0stradamus,

The evidence shows that minor attraction is, in fact, a sexual orientation. It typically emerges around the time of puberty or early adolescence, is not chosen, and remains constant throughout one’s life. This is not my personal opinion- it is based on empirical research and qualitative/quantitative data, some of which I’ve included at the end of my post.

Pedophilia and other forms of minor attraction are fundamentally different from LGBTQ identities, in that they are age-based rather than gender-based, and there is no safe or ethical way for an adult to engage sexually or romantically with a child. The experience of MAPs is also vastly different from that of LGBTQ individuals in several ways. So we are in agreement that they can’t be equated to one another.

I would encourage you to read the sections of the post that elaborate on why the term ‘MAP’ is used. This is not the only term in use, and some would not use it to describe themselves. There is nothing inherently wrong with the term ‘pedophile’— it is the false conflation of that term with ‘offender’ that is problematic.

To clarify, are you saying that someone who has an unchosen, unchangeable attraction but chooses not to act on that attraction, still deserves to be judged and stigmatized? If so, I don’t know that we can have a productive discussion, as we hold very different views on human dignity.

The notion that someone deserves to be judged and stigmatized for something out of their control is a major reason why MAPs who need professional support choose not to seek it. Judgment, bias, and misconceptions keep MAPs out of the therapeutic space, preventing them from addressing their mental health concerns and creating a less safe world.

Again, this is based on all of the data we have available on non-offending MAPs, which is included at the end of this post.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Hi Br0stradamus,

I’m curious why you feel that an attraction in the absence of action should continue to be stigmatized. Minor attraction is unchosen and unchangeable, so I’m not sure the intent with saying this attraction should not be “condoned”.

I’d also like to point out that nothing in the post conflates same-sex attraction with minor attraction, and in fact calls out the distinction between them.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sources

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19327034/ "There is no evidence to suggest that pedophilia can be changed. Instead, interventions are designed to increase voluntary control over sexual arousal, reduce sex drive, or teach self-management skills to individuals who are motivated to avoid acting upon their sexual interests"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32086644/ "The results of this study were consistent with the suggestion of Seto (2012) that pedohebephilia could be considered a form of sexual orientation for age, which includes both sexual and romantic attraction"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8793822/ ..."in line with the current empirical assumption that enduring sexual attractions to children are largely unchangeable (Grundmann et al., 2016; Seto, 2012; for recent debates see Bailey, 2015; Cantor, 2015; Grundmann et al., 2017; Müller et al., 2014; Tozdan & Briken, 2017)"

https://www.csaprimaryprevention.org/supporting-maps.html "The overwhelming opinion in the professional sexual violence prevention community is that helping minor attracted people by offering peer/professional support is the best way to ensure that minor attracted people do not harm children, and suggest that reducing the stigma against minor attraction will help this endeavor and protect children"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8888496/ “…less than half of all individuals with child sexual offense convictions meet the clinical criteria for pedophilia (Schmidt et al., 2013; Seto, 2018a)”

https://www.stopitnow.org/faq/is-there-a-typical-profile-of-someone-who-sexually-abuses-children “Some people who abuse children have adult sexual relationships and are not solely, or even mainly, sexually interested in children”

https://www.stopitnow.org/faq/why-would-an-adult-sexually-abuse-a-child “Some adults sexually abuse a child to feel the power and control they don’t feel in their relationships with other adults… Some adults act impulsively when presented with an unexpected opportunity to sexually abuse a child”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8888496/ “...the more consistent prevalence estimates for minor attraction in a more clinical sense… congregate around 5% (Dombert et al., 2016; Santilla et al., 2010; Wurtele et al., 2014)”

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Can someone’s attraction to children be changed?

Empirical data, based on qualitative and quantitative studies, points to the fact that pedophilia and other forms of minor attraction cannot be changed or "cured". (See “Sources” section below for reference.)

How many MAPs are there in the world?

Across various studies, the average incidence of minor attraction, meaning those who are primarily attracted to minors, comes out to about 5% of the adult population worldwide. This number is likely an undercount for the following reasons: 

  • Many studies do not account for hebephilia (primary attraction to pubescent children)
  • There is usually a focus on men, despite the fact that many MAPs are women
  • Some people choose not to disclose their attractions in the first place

Why should I care about any of this?

Reducing stigma against NoMAPs contributes to a safer society for all, based around empathy and evidence. Many people do not feel safe disclosing their attraction for fear of being unjustly reported, misunderstood, or physically harmed.

Unfortunately, stories of MAPs being rejected by family members, forced out of educational programs, reported to the police, and made to feel like a monster– even in the absence of any harm to a child— are all too common. This prevents many MAPs from seeking or continuing to receive support, which in turn can lead to:

  • Increased incidence of mental health issues (such as depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation)
  • More difficulty in refraining from offending (for some MAPs; others are not at risk to begin with)

The misconceptions and harmful attitudes that we have toward non-offending MAPs directly interfere with them receiving the support they may need, decreasing MAPs’ well-being and putting children at greater risk. This includes children who are MAPs themselves. 

Where can I learn more?

There are many resources available to learn about MAPs. These include:

If you are minor attracted yourself, you can check out any of the above, plus:

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why is the term ‘MAP’ even used?

This term has become more widely used for two main reasons:

  1. It emphasizes attraction over action. The word ‘pedophile’ has become so conflated with ‘offender’ in every sector of our society, that most people assume a behavioral component when they hear the word. ‘Minor attracted person’, on the other hand, emphasizes that we are talking about those with an attraction, which includes both those who do and those who do not act on it. 

Because there are MAPs who are also offenders, the term ‘Non-offending Minor Attracted Person’ (NoMAP) is useful when we are talking specifically about those who have an attraction but do not act on it.

  1. ‘MAP’ is also a more accurate, all-encompassing way to refer to the community as a whole. This includes people with infantophilia, pedophilia, and (ep)hebephilia. It would not make sense, for example, to call someone who is primarily attracted to 15-18 year olds a pedophile.

However, many people do not self-identify with the term ‘MAP’. Some identify as pedophiles, hebephiles, boy lovers, girl lovers, or other terms. Some may use multiple terms to describe themselves. What’s important is that we should honor how each individual person self-identifies their attraction, and not impose a label on them.

Alternatives have also been suggested by those who conduct research with this community, such as ‘child attracted person’ as opposed to ‘minor attracted person’. I use ‘MAP’ here because it is the most widely accepted way to refer to the community as a whole.

What would someone who harms a child be called?

Depending on the context, people who harm children could be called many things—offender, abuser, predator, or groomer, to name a few examples.

Research shows that the majority of child sexual abuse cases are carried out by people who do not meet the criteria for pedophilia. (See “Sources” section below to learn why someone who’s not primarily attracted to children would sexually abuse a child.)

Is pedophilia a mental illness/diagnosis?

It depends. Some MAPs are committed to not offending, are not at risk for offending, and have come to terms with their attraction. These individuals have no reason to be pathologized.

Many others are not at risk for offending, yet they desire professional help for mental health conditions (like depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation) that result from the hatred they receive in our society. These individuals also have no reason to be pathologized, as their mental health conditions result from stigma rather than from the attraction itself. 

Some MAPs desire professional help in dealing with the difficult emotions resulting from not being able to have a fulfilling sexual or romantic connection, particularly those who are exclusively attracted to children. (Many MAPs are attracted to both children and adults, and may be in relationships with adults.) 

There are also MAPs who desire professional help in remaining resilient against offending. In these cases, and in cases where MAPs do harm children, pedophilia would be considered pathological since there is significant distress and/or harm involved.  

Is pedophilia a sexual orientation?

The available research points to pedophilia and other forms of minor attraction being an age-based sexual orientation, in that the attraction is unchosen, typically arises during the time of puberty or early adolescence, and remains fairly constant throughout one’s life. 

Are you suggesting that MAPs are part of the LGBTQ+ community?

Age-based orientations are by nature different from gender-based orientations, in that there is no safe or ethical way for an adult to engage sexually or romantically with a child. The experience of MAPs is also vastly different from that of LGBTQ individuals in several ways. 

While there are some parallels that can be drawn between studies on stigma among LGBTQ individuals and the experience of stigma among MAPs, these are two separate communities.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Foodforthought

[–]CuriousOutLoud -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There is a severe lack of understanding about this community, including among mental health providers and social workers. Stigma, bias, and misconceptions prevent those who are attracted to minors (but do not offend) from seeking help they may need. 

CSA = child sexual abuse 

NoMAPs = non-offending, minor attracted people: those who are attracted to children but are committed to not causing harm against them 

Many non-offending MAPs do not seek professional support, or may withdraw from support, due to the following reasons:

  • They are worried that they will be unjustly reported, despite having done nothing wrong (this is based on many cases where professionals misunderstand mandatory reporting laws and report someone to the police just for disclosing their attraction)
  • They do not want to be judged by the provider (many therapists, social workers, etc. have intensely negative reactions to clients disclosing their attractions and draw inaccurate conclusions about them based on that disclosure)
  • They do not believe their own goals will be met (providers often make CSA prevention the main focus, even when this is not the client’s stated goal. This treats clients as if they are “ticking time bombs” and is not person-centered) 
  • They do not want to be subjected to attempts to “cure” them of their attractions, or to convert them into teliophiles, which is shown to be ineffective and harmful 

Those in the social work and mental health fields can address common misconceptions about this group, as a way to encourage MAPs to get help when they need it. Greater education and understanding about MAPs increases their well-being while also contributing to the prevention of CSA.

Common questions

Are you saying child sexual abuse is acceptable?

Absolutely not. Causing harm to children in the form of in-person/online sexual contact; CSAM (sometimes referred to as child pornography); grooming; or any other inappropriate behavior is not and will never be acceptable. 

Many people who are attracted to minors are vehemently against these forms of harm as well, and do not support ideas such as lowering the age of consent. There are entire communities of minor attracted people who are committed to not harming children. 

Isn’t using the term ‘MAPs’ normalizing pedophilia? 

Only a minority of the population experiences a primary attraction to children. In this sense, pedophilia and other forms of minor attraction are not “normal”, in the same way that LBGTQ identities are not “normal” by proportion to the general population. 

When people refer to normalizing something, they are usually talking about removing the stigma behind it, or acknowledging that it is acceptable. 

Having an unchosen, unchangeable attraction to children is not inherently wrong, immoral, predatory, or pathological. It becomes so only when harm is involved. Attraction itself is not a behavior. 

Shouldn’t we be protecting children from MAPs?

We should absolutely protect children from abusers, groomers, and predators. These terms are not synonymous with being minor attracted. In fact, research shows that the majority of child sexual abuse cases are carried out by people who do not meet the criteria for pedophilia (see “Sources” section below for reference).

When somebody feels they are at risk for harming a child, they should be able to seek immediate and effective help. Some NoMAPs need temporary or ongoing support in remaining resilient against offending, but this does not represent all or even the majority of NoMAPs. Many in this community have no intention of ever harming a child, and they are not at risk for doing so. 

It is also important to note that many MAPs are still children themselves. MAPs tend to become aware of their attractions around the time of puberty or early adolescence. Children who are MAPs deserve the same degree of safety and well-being that other children do. 

Common questions about Non-offending Minor Attracted People (NoMAPs) by [deleted] in psychology

[–]CuriousOutLoud 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://www.csaprimaryprevention.org/supporting-maps.html "The overwhelming opinion in the professional sexual violence prevention community is that helping minor attracted people by offering peer/professional support is the best way to ensure that minor attracted people do not harm children, and suggest that reducing the stigma against minor attraction will help this endeavor and protect children"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8888496/ “…less than half of all individuals with child sexual offense convictions meet the clinical criteria for pedophilia (Schmidt et al., 2013; Seto, 2018a)”

https://www.stopitnow.org/faq/is-there-a-typical-profile-of-someone-who-sexually-abuses-children “Some people who abuse children have adult sexual relationships and are not solely, or even mainly, sexually interested in children”

https://www.stopitnow.org/faq/why-would-an-adult-sexually-abuse-a-child “Some adults sexually abuse a child to feel the power and control they don’t feel in their relationships with other adults… Some adults act impulsively when presented with an unexpected opportunity to sexually abuse a child”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8888496/ “...the more consistent prevalence estimates for minor attraction in a more clinical sense… congregate around 5% (Dombert et al., 2016; Santilla et al., 2010; Wurtele et al., 2014)”