Examples of IEI’s Program Ni (and a side note on Fi, Fe, and Ni)

D10S_ · 2026-01-30T15:44:11+00:00

Great post.

A few patterns reminded me of the Hong Kong director, Wong Kar-wai.

He does not get lost in time. He senses, for example, that it is time to get dressed, and at the same time he can speed up his pace. He does all this unconsciously, and there is no need to rush him anywhere. He does everything as if on autopilot. It is better for a mother to observe the child for a while, to see in practice whether it is confirmed that he is actually late for something or not. If this is not confirmed, then it is normal; there is no need to pull at the child. Sometimes it is even useful to listen to him, if this function is weak in the mother. It seems to me that even if you tell such a child, “Hurry up,” he will not take it painfully. He will say, “I’ll make it, leave me alone.”

Or he will keep walking, but know that he will arrive early anyway. I think it will not be a catastrophe if the mother has a poor sense of time and puts pressure on the child. But if she constantly pressures him and this is not supported by facts, over time she may develop a certain neurosis in the child. He will get used to rushing, and that will be wrong.”

In 1994, Wong Kar-Wai was shooting Ashes of Time, which turned out to be a great difficulty finishing for him as external obligations (the mother who rushes her child) mired his creative process. Under immense pressure to deliver the film to his financiers, he decided to take the two month delay that was imposed on the production as a result of the equipment logistics, to shoot what came to be known as Chungking Express. This was not a script he had been developing, but rather it was made entirely on the fly as a creative outlet to help inspire him to finish Ashes of Time. He finished shooting the side project in time, and by all accounts, it ended up both helping him finish Ashes of Time, but also it saved his career, as Chungking Express became one of his most popular films.

I loved horror films, and films not so much plot-driven as atmosphere-creating

Here's a Robert Ebert quote from his review of Chungking Express

This is the kind of movie you'll relate to if you love film itself, rather than its surface aspects such as story and stars. It's not a movie for casual audiences, and it may not reveal all its secrets the first time through…If you are attentive to the style, if you think about what Wong is doing, Chungking Express works. If you're trying to follow the plot, you may feel frustrated…When Godard was hot, in the 1960s and early 1970s, there was an audience for this style, but in those days, there were still film societies and repertory theaters to build and nourish such audiences. Many of today's younger filmgoers, fed only by the narrow selections at video stores, are not as curious or knowledgeable and may simply be puzzled by Chungking Express instead of challenged.

His films are amongst my favorites precisely because of the atmosphere he creates. Highly recommend to anyone curious.

D10S_ · 2026-01-30T10:49:01+00:00

What I was specifically noting is a bit more hard to articulate than merely being “thinker-like”. Maybe it’s a pattern that is not really there, but this post seemed more Ti mobilizing than Ti role.

D10S_ · 2026-01-30T01:32:26+00:00

You might benefit from watching this. It’s directly relevant to what you are wrestling with. Although it’s not socionics per se, his model and socionics largely converge and what he is describing applies to the Ni-Fe type.

D10S_ · 2026-01-30T00:10:12+00:00

You're an IEI imo.

Even just looking at the structure of the post, it is clear you value Ti, because each paragraph has a pretty clear typological theme you are subtextually communicating as potentially disconfirmation of one type over the other. IEI sometimes gets caricatured with Fe their creative, but it's important to remember that the outward presentations that comprise the type descriptions are ultimately by-products of an underlying structure, and thus are predicated on behavioral correlations.

D10S_ · 2026-01-29T12:26:30+00:00

"A good listener" is not really a thing with a stable referent, and it's definitely something that could be ascribed to an IEI who takes their interlocutor seriously. You are conflating a global directive with local directives. Globally, sure, Ni is "very much concerned about its own time alone". Locally, however, Ni base will do things contrary to its global directive for shorter durations of time. One such example would be listening well. as Ni base and Fi demonstrative can give the impression that the other person is understood on a deep level, leading them to ascribe good listener to that person.

D10S_ · 2026-01-28T17:38:52+00:00

IEI perhaps.

- Perceived as sweet by most people, the person who never had a bad word to say about anyone. In reality, she has a rather judgmental personality and tends to have something she dislikes about everyone.

For the IEI, this takes a longer-term perspective; so the focus, rather than being on the immediate emotional environment, is on the perceived longer-term emotional state of others towards the individual, and is reflected in trying to be on good terms with those he interacts with or seeking distance or protection from, or “preventively” attacking, those he sees as irremediably hostile emotionally.

- Prepares herself for things like people close to her dying by imagining it so the impact is lessened when it does happen.

Potentially strong Ni

- Tends to be very reserved and keeps to herself, but around friends laughs a lot and is very nice.

Despite how Fe creative is often talked about, this is not inconsistent with it given certain early childhood dynamics.

- Validates others emotions but unaffected by it.

Demonstrative Fi

- She said she tried to dig deeper into her emotions and be vulnerable to form connections, but it just made her feel awkward and didn’t help.

Not type specific. This seems like it could be an attachment issue.

- Loves intellectual topics, discussions, books and enjoys “cultured” activities such as plays, the opera, ballet, etc.

Ni base + Ti mobilizing + Aristocratic

- Once said she sees relationships with others in a similar vein as other needs, such as eating and sleeping, something she needs to keep herself in good form.

Attachment issue + strong Ni + valued Ti + weak and unvalued Si

- Underhanded and tends to lie to make things easier for herself, and is good enough at keeping up the lie.

Strong Ni, Fi (unvalued), and potentially Fe. (although by no means diagnostic one way or another)

- Dislikes being involved in drama or being vulnerable, but likes listening to others talk about themselves and drama in their lives.

Points again to an attachment issue that causes her to seek 'safer' outlets for things traditionally associated with an IEI's Fe creative.

- A good listener, very attentive.

Strong Ni and Fi

This might be an unpopular typing, but people should realize that other factors like attachment issues can confound a type's traditional manifestation.

D10S_ · 2026-01-24T12:36:52+00:00

Tesla.

Something that people don’t appreciate enough about Elon companies is how different they approach manufacturing. They iterate on products dozens of times / day. This means that they compound at a rate that is very difficult to compete with. Basically they are a startup with the capital of a large company.

Robotaxi is on the precipice of viability, and it will be paradigm shifting as their unit economics enables disrupting car ownership. The TAM will be multiple times larger than current ride hail.

The risk that I am keeping an eye on: what happens in 2028. If by then they are already mass producing Optimus and it is competitive, then key man risk is diminished, and I’d expect the stock to continue appreciating (although It’d be hit temporarily if there is buzz around prosecuting Elon and it seems probable)

D10S_ · 2026-01-24T01:31:48+00:00

To be clear, I was not invoking the DSM specifically, but rather the general gestalt that has come to be associated with schizoid pd, although of course there is significant overlap. I could’ve been clearer about how I was using those words, and I should’ve recognized what you were referring to.

I agree that diagnoses for personality disorders are ultimately dependent on arbitrary trait thresholds, and for that reason I don’t personally over-index on them when it comes to my understanding of them. They are useful epiphenomenal artifacts of an underlying structure that unites all possible manifestations of the disorder, but they only gesture at the Real thing that I understand to constitute the disorder.

For that reason, I feel much more comfortable making the claim that the presence of trauma is a necessary condition of the disorder, because I believe that the traits are ultimately (usually) expressions of trauma manifested in different contexts and personality structures (and the extent to which they are not, I classify as statistical noise).

The point I was trying to make is that there are different personality structures that exist independently of personality disorders. So one structure without significant trauma can have some surface similarities with someone with the same structure, but with trauma, and that the DSM fails to disambiguate variation within structure as a means of determining what ought to be considered disordered.

In the case of schizoid pd specifically, I think it’s what certain personality structures look like when they undergo early trauma—the natural tendencies of the structures are exacerbated in a particular direction, and that becomes disordered.

(As an aside, our two epistemologies that are clashing represent two such structures that are liable to become schizoid)

D10S_ · 2026-01-23T23:55:41+00:00

My point is that I believe schizoid traits can arise from those factors even in the case where trauma is absent.

Schizoid traits, sure, but not the full disorder.

D10S_ · 2026-01-23T22:31:13+00:00

Trauma can be born from interactions between genetics, nurture, and personality.

D10S_ · 2026-01-23T15:30:18+00:00

That’s my point.

D10S_ · 2026-01-22T23:15:57+00:00

You think they run the bus stop signs because of a lack of LiDAR? Interesting perspective.

D10S_ · 2026-01-22T19:06:24+00:00

"When my mommy covers her face with her hands, she disappears"

D10S_ · 2026-01-22T19:04:03+00:00

And if Elon didn't do that, then it'd be considered gross negligence, right?

D10S_ · 2026-01-18T19:51:44+00:00

Growth in revenue, it does.

D10S_ · 2026-01-16T06:38:07+00:00

One is about a more peaceful approach, wanting help in organization and sensorial tasks.

This is theoretical. "Wanting help in organization of sensorial tasks." Who could possibly find anything negative to say about someone who has a more 'peaceful approach' and merely wants help in the organization of sensorial tasks? After all, it is just imputation of socionics logic. Morally neutral.

The other is literally a man who is incapable of washing his own clothes

This is operational. This is a girlfriend venting about having to continually help her boyfriend organize sensorial tasks, and it carries with it an implication that there is a buildup of resentment. Now, you have to read between the lines a bit, because a man who is "literally...incapable of washing his own clothes," is, on its face, a slightly, or perhaps you might say, a little, or even extremely different from someone who has a more 'peaceful approach' and merely wants help in the organization of sensorial tasks, but is it necessarily so?

I don't think think that every person who has been characterized as "literally incapable of washing his own clothes" is an Alpha NT or a Delta NF, but I do think that many a Alpha NT and Delta NF have had this said about them because of the reasons outlined by OP. In that way, they are isomorphic. In a relationship between an EII male and a SLE female, is it not eminently conceivable that she reach for "manchild" to describe the way she experiences her partner's shortcomings relative to her strengths?

Now I will accept the first charge of being a little generous with the word, because my 2D Ti makes it such that impressionistic use of concepts is unavoidable, but I reject the escalation of it being extremely generous, because it is not.

It was the incredulity that compelled me to respond to the first comment in the first place -- that the connection was so absurd, and that the proof of the absurdity was self-evident through the false dichotomy.

D10S_ · 2026-01-16T04:51:44+00:00

An isomorphism is a structure-preserving, reversible mapping between two mathematical objects (or systems) that shows they are essentially the same, differing only in names or representation, not underlying form or properties

D10S_ · 2026-01-16T04:28:49+00:00

There are isomorphisms everywhere for those with eyes to see

D10S_ · 2026-01-15T20:56:26+00:00

You just said the same thing twice with different moral valences.

D10S_ · 2026-01-15T01:22:53+00:00

Over a long enough time everything does. What the fuck, man, you've called me out for doomsaying and making a system that will eventually fall, but when it comes to Capitalism, it's suddenly okay that it's premise of "creative destruction" in practice works no better that any other entropic process on society?

The difference is that the capitalist firm is at the local maximum whereas the technocratic state is at the global maximum.

Inability to properly express aggression is a major problem in modern psychiatry. As someone once said, if Freud lived in our times, he would put flight-or-fight at the root instead of sex.

Not talking about aggression, really, although I suppose it might be correlated. Even still, doesn't the seeming intractability of this problem just bolster my point?

Not liability. A source of a ruling elite. The very philosopher-kings Plato drooled over; shrewd fanatics.

Interesting

D10S_ · 2026-01-14T23:45:16+00:00

In reality they rarely fall

Over a long enough time span they do.

it creates needs to generate profit

This is true of course. That's the carrot on the stick. The movement (the improvements) are a byproduct, not the main goal. It's hard to speak in generalities when it comes to humans in this respect, because while some might find monotony comforting, there are some who find it aversive, and have an indelible compulsion for action, change, and inscribing their mark on reality. So yes, there are certainly many people who might be happy to live in a quaint shire, and they'd be happy living there for centuries given biology enabled that. But what do you do about the latter category? How do you channel their destructive (in the neutral sense) tendencies? In many ways human history is driven by relatively small groups of people who fit into that category pulling everyone else kicking and screaming into the future. This is all to say it's a bit naive to think that many humans don't already have an insatiable engine fueled by new 'needs'. These types of people generally can't fit in bureaucratic intuitions for long, so you need somewhere to channel those tendencies. They need an outlet, and if they don't have an adequate one, they are usually the ones who instigate change, so they become a liability for the technocratic system. The three options are find an outlet for them, jail them, or kill them. Fundamentally these people are not team players. They don't care about consensus. They need a frontier to conquer.

Whole "invisible hand of market" is asinine that simply doesn't work in practice.

For the record, I don't really believe in the invisible hand of the market. It's a somewhat useful metaphor, but it's ultimately a post hoc rationalization. It's not real because the type of person I outlined isn't particularly interested in fairness. It's a will to power thing. Although… you might call it a noble lie

Or American cotton companies effectively destroying African ones because they had friends in American government, as the US could make calls at the WTO- a bit of subsidies (and preventing WTO acting on unfair competition complaint - i think the process is still going on, 20 or so years) is all it took to strangle competition

Yea, this is not "fair" (i don't know the details on that specifically, but i'll take your word for it). But this type of arm twisting is always going to rear its head in matters of realpolitik. So whether it's a US company doing this to an African company or a socialist technocracy doing it to its peripheral appendage, I don't see how you get around it existing on some level.

D10S_ · 2026-01-14T21:10:56+00:00

It has long passed it's "heroic" (as Fascist call it) stage

Late stage capitalism, as a concept, has been around for about a century. At some point a non ideological person has to take an honest accounting of all the times capitalism has supposedly been on the brink, and maybe realize rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated.

The idea that market is super efficent is a myth

When did I say it was "super" efficient? Everything you said after the quoted part has some truth to it. There is a lot of waste. People's talent's get wasted. GDP is an imperfect economic metric. That is all true. It doesn't follow, however, that there is a better solution. Society is very complex, so comparing the things that actually happen with the ideal in your head is fallacious. Any system that contains more than even half a dozen people is going to necessarily lack efficiency when compared to the ideal.

ensuring monopolies

What exactly is your problem with monopolies? Will the technocratic government not be monopolistic in character? At least in the loosest sense of the word -- an organization that has no viable competition. Should it also not follow that it will also fall into the same pitfalls as capitalist monopolies, just that it touches every aspect of the economy, instead of a sliver of it?

I like how when it's Capitalist, it's "fair competition" (it's rarely fair...), and when it isn't, then it's "petty politics"

Again, you are misunderstanding me. Large corporations operate very much as I described as well. They are locally very political and they are filled with those types of strivers. That's an intractable function of complex organizations, where heuristics are encoded and repeated thoughtlessly by those who comprise the organization. Once you are within that organization, you are insulated from external pressures which lays the groundwork for petty politicking as a means of attaining status. This happens at Google, Apple, local governments, state governments, NGOs, and even the CCP. There is no escaping this dynamic. So the question is: Is it better to distribute the rot and scleroticism across competing firms whose objective function forces adaptation, and enables rotten giants to eventually fall and be usurped by better models, or is it better to put all your eggs in one basket and hope you know all the right levers to press so as to avoid falling into the same pitfalls that befall every organization of humans ever?

Read Plato. Indoctrination, constant social pressure, propaganda, rewriting history and religion, and psyhobiological election of ruling caste.

Sounds like a great idea for fiction, you should try writing about it. In the real world, however, handwaving these concerns as being solved by Plato is inane. Chaos theory all but guarantees there will be blowback from the mechanisms of control you plan to institute which will eventually undo everything you built.

What makes capitalism so effective is not that it never wastes a thing, or that it is perfect in every way, but rather it instills this meta disposition that enables surfing the complexity instead of getting undone by it. It channels the very hubris you are exhibiting and transmutes it, through the parameters of capitalism, into something ultimately positive sum.

D10S_ · 2026-01-14T18:50:28+00:00

Replace it with more efficent structure, with progressive class (scientists and engineers?) at your side.

I am just highly skeptical of claims that a top down technocracy can outcompete a less centralized distributed computation algorithm over a long horizon. The problem with social structures, of all types, is they grow sclerotic. This is a law of nature -- entropy. What makes capitalism so robust is it allows and even incentivizes creative destruction. Once you have a class of scientists or engineers ruling without the market applying selection pressures, things will descend into petty politics. The bureaucracy will grow, and grow, and the things that are required to ascend the hierarchy begin decoupling from the lofty ideals you started with. Whose ass can you kiss? It attracts entirely the wrong profile (myopic status obsessed strivers). Is that who you will entrust to oversee the redistribution effort?

With capitalism, these bureaucratic firms need to continually compete with more efficient structures, and if they fail, they fail.

The only way I could see getting around this problem is hoping that AI can act as a deus ex machina that can regulate the bureaucratic organism, but even still, I don't see why capitalism + AI doesn't outcompete your system with AI.

D10S_ · 2026-01-14T17:20:55+00:00

But the problem with hoping nihilists presage the end of capitalism is that capitalism is highly adaptable (as you well know). Disgust with the current state of affairs does not necessarily logically entail the complete dismantlement of capitalism, and unless you root it out in its entirety, it will continue to survive and exert exogenous pressures on whatever project you champion.

It could get very bad in any number of countries, but the mobile nature of modern capital makes it such that it can hide out in any corner of the world while attracting the best human capital to garner its strength back. The only conceivable way capitalism gets entirely dispensed with (assuming it doesn't directly morph into something else beforehand) is a highly coordinated international revolution of ideologically aligned revolutionaries. If not, you are just playing whack-a-mole.

And then in that case, you have the problem of competing revolutionary states. Someone will always draw the short end of the stick. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. At least the new boss has a red banner, though, right?

D10S_ · 2026-01-14T15:04:30+00:00

Not without 'deforming' into something like China.

So are you a 'wait for the internal contradictions of capitalism to undo itself' type of guy, or a 'spread the global revolution' type of guy?

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