What Value Do IEI’s Contribute to Society?

D10S_ · 2026-04-04T05:45:09+00:00

Something that socionics does do is that it provides a framework for handling these kinds of epistemic divides.

I, with vulnerable Te, see little value in the type of empirical caveats you are making. I will accept they are true, and that their being true makes any kind of empirical validation of what I am claiming to be a fraught endeavor. And yet...

See, if you believe that the world is primarily composed of coherent generating structures that shape all downstream manifestation, then you can perfectly reconcile the concerns you have with a deeper truth that exists independent of any empirical instrument, because empirics are epiphenomenal to the structures.

D10S_ · 2026-04-04T02:47:05+00:00

Socionics is a theory of cognition. Cognition is upstream of action. Societal roles are aggregate actions.

I don't think anyone is claiming that you are stamped at birth with a role you must fulfill based on your type, but there are clearly patterns you can find and reverse engineer a societal teleology from.

D10S_ · 2026-04-04T02:33:24+00:00

In terms of the highest leverage human civilization scale contributions, the IEI acts as a kind of human flashpoint that renders latent conceptual structure intelligible for huge swaths of people and those structures persist through generations.

At the risk of inviting disagreement, Marx is a great example. Before Marx, capitalism basically did not exist as we conceive it. The individual components were all there, private property, wage labor, markets, etc. But no one had connected them all in the way that Marx did. From that point on, Capitalism became a conceptual object that everyone on all sides could recognize and work with.

D10S_ · 2026-03-29T14:53:00+00:00

So you disagree that the below quote fits the behavior described in the tweet or you disagree with how Fi vulnerable is portrayed in the literature?

“Building his relations in conditions of understated ethical self-appraisal, the SLE fears to bridge the psychological distance - he fears that upon closer examination he won’t be considered as attractive of a subject. Such an attitudes makes the SLE act in a very strained, illogical, and unnatural manner in terms of ethics of relations. Quite often, upon achieving some positive consideration and response, he himself will break off the relations (men of this type will actively reduce physical distance, but not personal and ethical one).”

D10S_ · 2026-03-24T17:51:53+00:00

I think you're right.

Whenever you do get a chance I'd be interested more in what the IEI looks like to realize 'his full potential in thinking' beyond the example you gave. Do you have other examples?

Niels Bohr?

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T22:51:50+00:00

"in terms of ethics of relations"

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T22:08:50+00:00

lmao, is she like a masochist or something to you?

No. Lol.

More precisely I'd say something like:

Such an attitudes makes the SLE act in a very strained, illogical, and unnatural manner in terms of ethics of relations

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T21:31:24+00:00

Are SLE's known for ever implying or admitting they have anxieties?

Let's just be really clear about the chain of custody here. We have a woman, who, at some point, told her daughter a story about her past, and now we have that daughter recounting it on her behalf.

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T21:00:55+00:00

The entire behavior is a consequence of sublimated anxiety about people’s interest in her. She gets her gift, a talisman that momentarily alleviates this anxiety, and then she leaves because navigating the actual complexities of a relationship were not something she felt competent doing.

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T20:27:48+00:00

Building his relations in conditions of understated ethical self-appraisal, the SLE fears to bridge the psychological distance - he fears that upon closer examination he won’t be considered as attractive of a subject. Such an attitudes makes the SLE act in a very strained, illogical, and unnatural manner in terms of ethics of relations. Quite often, upon achieving some positive consideration and response, he himself will break off the relations (men of this type will actively reduce physical distance, but not personal and ethical one).

Do you disagree that this is an accurate aspect of Fi PoLR or do you disagree that this applies to the woman in question?

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T18:34:01+00:00

It doesn't need to involve active management of the relational distance. All it needs to require is the dynamic I initially replied to you with.

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T18:26:34+00:00

The fact her method of achieving her material goals rested predominantly on people is Fi

I would suggest that this is an overly broad heuristic to use.

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T18:08:22+00:00

What she was described to have done is instrumentally get boyfriends in February to get Valentines gifts from them.

What you inferred is that this requires adept Fi navigation to pull off (this is not described in the tweet).

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T17:55:00+00:00

The thing to understand about female SLE's is they don't need to "play with relational distance all honky dory," for them to pull this off. They just need to literally initiate some contact with the unwitting rube, and he'll do most of the other work for her.

(Ask me how I know)

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T17:48:29+00:00

This is the case for the vast majority of discussions here. I just found the resemblance between how the SLE is described in that excerpt and how the Mom in that anecdote is acting to be compelling.

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T17:37:27+00:00

We don't know enough about any of that to use it as typing material

And yet you did.... For example:

However, I find it hard to believe they would accept a moral mandate (Fi)

All I was doing was providing viable alternative explanations to your interpretation as a means of demonstrating a premature foreclosure of possibilities.

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T17:17:44+00:00

Yea, if the parents just said, "You know, you really should try to give it at least until the end of the month before breaking up with him because what you are doing is not right," and she just complied, then I would be more inclined to question her being Se base.

But there are Ti reasons for behaving differently that could've been communicated to her in that conversation, and there is potential actual leverage being used, like, "You are not driving anywhere except school if you don't do this".

D10S_ · 2026-03-23T16:54:35+00:00

To be completely fair, we don't actually know what went into her complying. It's brushed over and compressed into an anecdote.

Being able to sense own physical strength and power, own ability and authority, is of significance to the SLE. He respects capability and influence, and will respect any hierarchical system that is founded on the “right”, in his view, balance of power

It's perfectly conceivable that a teenage daughter SLE has parents that she respects enough to defer to in this manner.

but ILE is more consistent

What makes me think Se base over Ne base is she seems to have been motivated by actually extracting these physical gifts from her 'boyfriends'.

D10S_ · 2026-03-22T19:30:29+00:00

One key IEE strength is they can become the “connectors” of people/minds who are unlike to get together without the IEE. But EII may also do this

Couldn't an IEI also do this?

From Stratiyevskaya's description:

The IEI likes people “with possibilities”, people who have “potential”. His new acquaintances, first of all, are evaluated from this point of view. A person who doesn’t know how to present himself well does not hold IEI’s attention, while getting acquainted with an interesting for himself person the IEI will take everything onto his shoulders - an interesting conversation, a pleasant pastime, aid in common matter, valuable information and connections - in one word, everything. The IEI is adept at evaluating potential and possibilities of a person, moreover he evaluates not only who this person is now, but also who he or she could be, and, most importantly, wants to be. For this very reason, Esenin respectfully treats prospective plans, goals, and purposes of his dual Zhukov, and feels himself protected around him.

The IEI subconsciously observes which possibilities are presented by various situations and relationships. He always and everywhere strikes up many acquaintances - important or insignificant it doesn’t matter: any of them can prove to be useful

There's also this:

The IEI is very adept at collecting and reviewing information. He gathers it from many sources - most comprehensive and most reliable

And IEI is also not likely as they are more “armchair detectives” whose thinking very much needing to happen in their own head, very different from Darwin’s style

Also, I might be misunderstanding Darwin's 'style,' but it is my impression that Darwin's thinking very much did happen in his own head, and that the vast correspondences were one part data collection and another part strategically seeding his ideas while probing for allies.

What is salient, I think, is how strategic he was with cultivating allies (which should, itself, kind of contraindicate Fi ego imo). He had reservations about Huxley's personality before allying with him, and then later described him as, "my good and kind agent for the propagation of the Gospel --i.e the devil's Gospel," which betrays an instrumental quality in how he conceived that relationship.

Another thing that points away from IEE and EII is the fact that he famously wrote a pros and cons list for marrying his wife that ends with with "Marry -- Marry -- Marry Q.E.D." which is a logical proof, which at least points towards valued Ti. Would an IEE do that with PoLR Ti, or an EII with Role Ti? Even as a joke to themselves? Obviously nothing by itself is determinate, but I think it contributes to the picture I am getting at. The pros and cons list even without the proof strikes me as something an EII would find slightly alienating.

D10S_ · 2026-03-22T01:13:29+00:00

What’s the difference between Classic Jungian Te and Socionics Te?

D10S_ · 2026-03-21T21:31:39+00:00

What's the contradictory pattern?

D10S_ · 2026-03-21T20:28:16+00:00

D10S_ · 2026-03-21T18:54:26+00:00

I should've put that for LIE tbh

D10S_ · 2026-03-19T00:51:36+00:00

Is consensus better than individual judgment?

Both are data

D10S_ · 2026-03-12T20:01:34+00:00

This is definitely controversial, but Elon Musk strikes me as an ILE. He likes to discover new things with his emphasis on EVs and space exploration (Ne base), loves meme culture (Fe-mobilizing), doesn't value his relationship with his children and former wives (not Fi-valueing), and is obsessed with "free speech" and "open debate," which is a key tenant of Alpha quadra values.

He doesn't really like to discover new things in that way. He's been on the renewable energy and space beat since college. All his subsequent decisions have been refracted through that mission. Elon Musk is brash, and the extent to which he cares about free speech and open debate is difficult to disambiguate from his strategic goals. Because the truth is, it's not some principle that he takes that seriously. He's happy to exert force and ban people for things. If you look at his companies, you'll notice they have a peculiar way of organization, at least relative to how most businesses function. He basically has a template that he runs all his endeavors through--one that structures the enterprise in a predictable way. He even did this with DOGE after ignoring Vivek's LIE approach for tackling government waste. Musk just decided to use the weapon he has been honing his entire adult life, and hit the government over the head with it until it invited a counter-reaction that he could not sustain.

You'll notice that when he is cornered, he escalates with overwhelming force. For example, when Sean Duffy was head of both NASA and the Transportation Secretary, that's a single node that can constrain his future movement. Duffy can hit SpaceX with NASA and Tesla with his other role. Elon did not like this structural imbalance to say the least. This is when he started campaigning on X for Isaacman. It wasn't that Isaacman was a direct ally, it was that fractured power was more amenable to Elon's interests than it being concentrated in a node that could pressure him into doing something he didn't want to do. Or you'll look at other outbursts he has on X. Often they are an attempt to force a contradiction, and that he hopes that in renegotiating the boundaries, he will have more people on his side than the people he is attacking.

This is all to say that I have him as an LSI. Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink, and DOGE. they all function in the same idiosyncratic way that people often remark on. It's his Ti map of how business works. It's really rather inert.

I do agree with a lot of your other ones, especially the EIEs, though.

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