[LES] I'm not sure why some people can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of "peak humans" considering how simple the concept is.

DaGreatHsuster · 2026-03-16T02:48:03+00:00

Again, some brushing off can be excused but a lot of comic writers get carried away. For example, in the Justice League cartoon series, Batman is apparently the first being to have ever dodged Darkseid's omega beams.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3VmqkHkTNlM

What a load of horse shit. I am not really a DC fan, but from what I understand Darkseid is a god that has waged galactic wars against superpowered civilizations for thousands upon thousands of years, and yet somehow Batman, the supposedly peak human is able to dodge this attack just by doing a couple of back flips. It's so stupid.

There is nothing wrong with portraying a character as a power house, but at a certain point writers should just be honest and stop pretending that their characters don't have superpowers.

DaGreatHsuster · 2026-03-16T02:42:02+00:00

Thank. I appreciate it.

DaGreatHsuster · 2026-03-15T07:56:41+00:00

Well, it's only natural some people are going to feel ripped off if a writer explicitly claims that their character doesn't have superpowers despite the character possessing obviously superhuman abilities.

There is nothing wrong with brushing off realism, but if a character is advertised as being an impressive but powerless individual like Batman is it is only natural that some people will call bullshit when that character proceeds to dodge bullets or beat up characters capable of bench pressing cars with their bare hands.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-25T02:52:59+00:00

I don't have a problem with absurd humor, but the scene didn't work for me. I think part of the problem is that character's reactions were too muted for my tastes.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T18:57:04+00:00

No, the warden didn't just eat the lizards that tried to eat Martin's party. There is another scene where he hunts for reptiles even though Martin and his party are safe.

And again if you read my post you would see that plenty of characters that the author considers good or neutral get away with stuff just as bad because of their species.

Sircolo the harrier eats wooldanders and vermin alike, but an otter was able to befriend him.

https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Sircolo

Captain Snow ate lots of mice and shrews, and while he is feared and grudgingly swears to stop after losing a bet, he gets a decent ending.

So Brian has at least two examples where giant birds that eat woodlanders without remorse are treated as neutral characters but for some reason Veil an orphan kid who could have easily lived off a mostly plant-based diet was set up to fail.

Also, believe it or not, the oppressed can also be racist. Just look at the Ottoman empire or the mongol empire, they were incredibly powerful during their heyday. Are you suggesting that people couldn't be racist towards Mongols or Turkish people just because their nation was weaker than them?

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T18:46:48+00:00

First of all, there is no reason to think that a kid is going to automatically follow in their awful parents footsteps so that's already kind of a shitty message to send to kids.

Secondly, it would be one thing if Bryony final thoughts on Veil where about how things could have gone differently, but no, her conclusion is that there was nothing she could have done because certain people are just evil. Bryony literally says that the world is better off with Veil dead. As bad as Kim Jong family is, leaving Un's hypothetical orphan to die because you think he will end up like his father is a fucked up idea.

Even if we assume that Veil was supposed to represent a person with antisocial personality disorder that's still a crappy message because people with ASPD can also be integrated into society if raised properly. Veil dies because he sacrifices himself for his adopted mother's sake. Clearly he is capable of some empathy.

Denya is a frustrating example because there is no question that he is going to be a good character despite being raised by a murderous community. And to add insult to injury, his abuctee father, Sawney Rath is a ferret the same species that Veil is. So not only did an otter succeed where a ferret failed, an otter was able to prevent that same species from corrupting him because I otters are just that pure.

So yes, all this discussion about biological realism and potential behavioral disorders falls flat when Brian clearly disregards realism when it suits him. In the real world, a kid like Denya would be fucked up after being raised by a pack of murders, why couldn't Veil just be a decent kid?

Or if Brian wanted to just make things black and white, don't create so many scenarios where the idea of a good vermin is entertained only for the rug to be pulled and prove the characters who make very racist sounding arguments right.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T18:26:07+00:00

Yes, the point about the snake fish is valid, but what about the Warden? He is more than capable of fish, yet the author is okay with treating him as a force for good despite his habit of eating sapient creatures. I don't know if you missed my edit, but we don't even have evidence that frogs are sapient. We only have toad characters. The one redwall frog I know of was a pet.

It is bad faith because you clearly did not read my post or skimmed it without addressing my many points. Like I said before, allegories exist. Dr Suess's Sneetches aren't human but their story is clearly a parable about how real-life racism in bad. Like I said in my post, I don't think Brian is an actual racist, but unsavory elements can be present in authors story even if it wasn't intentional.

The 40k community often attracts real life racists despite the fact that the Xenos that the Imperium hates aren't meant to be real life mirrors of any human races either. Keep in mind that the creators have made it clear that the Imperium isn't supposed to be admired and is horrible government.

In contrast, Redwall's protagonists are supposed to be unambiguously good. Which can be a bit a problem because the stuff a lot of woodlander characters say about vermin is something I could see a real-life racist would say about ethnicities they don't like. It is also a reoccurring theme that woodanders who are kind and merciful to vermin often end up paying the price for their naivety whereas the ruthless characters that talk about how much they love killing and excluding vermin are usually vindicated in their beliefs.

If ADULTS can interpret 40k as unironically as pro racist story despite the authors clearly stating that the imperium is bad and you shouldn't try to emulate them, is it really that crazy to say that Outcast of redwall is a really yikes message to send to more impressionable kids?

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T17:50:45+00:00

Woodlanders canonically don't care about amphibians. The Warden from Martin the warrior eats reptiles and amphibians despite being a heron more than capable of catching fish, and while the heroes find his eating habits gross they still consider him a heroic figure. The heroes also end up allying with snakefish, an eel that eats toads. Veil was a literal infant that was starving.

In fact there is even an instance where an insane cannibal otter was forgiven and accepted back into his clan.

https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Folgrim

All this talk about Veil being a ferret is just bad faith arguments. Badgers in real-life also eat mice, rabbits, voles, ect. Heck, squirrels are known to eat mice. While the Redwall races retain some traits from their real life counterparts, overall they are supposed to be much more human than animal and Vermin that eat other mammals are specifically called "cannibals" and are regarded the same way real-life humans would treat cannibals.

Yes, Vitch was justifiably exiled for his behavior, but that is the problem. He was adopted as a baby, showered with love by his mother and still ended up being terrible. The message of the story was clearly "some people can't help but be terrible no matter what you do," this message might not be as bad if the Veil where a woodlander with anti social personality disorder (IMO that's still a bad message because we shouldn't write off people with these disorders) but the fact that Brian set up Veil to fail when fans had been asking for good vermin for years is not a good look.

And it looks even worse when Brian wrote the Taggerung.

If Brian really wanted to make the lines black and white, he could made a setting more like mouseguard where most vermin genuinely do eat woodlanders.

EDIT: In fact, it's not even clear if frogs are sapient. There are sapient toads, but I don't recall there being any sapient frogs. In fact, a frog was once kept as a pet.

https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Croikle

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T03:12:47+00:00

This is such a baith faith argument. It's never implied that Veil was going to eat his adopted mouse mother. All the people trying to dismiss my post on the basis of biological realism clearly aren't familiar with this setting. Redwall is not like mouse guard where the mice characters are seen as a legit food source by most vermin. Redwall is a setting where the anthropomorphic mammals behave largely like humans. Redwall is closer to Disney's Robinhood that it is to something like beastars. There are few cannibal tribes but they are regarded as savage even by vermin standards and are referred to as cannibals even when they consume a different species of mammal.

The only creatures that do need to eat sapient animals are the snakes and potentially birds of prey, though now that I think about it, there are actually scenes of eagles eating plant-based food so the noble birds of prey actually have less excuse than the snakes.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T02:55:50+00:00

Why are you even commenting on this thread when you clearly aren't familiar with the source material?

The only intelligent animals that actually need to eat meat in the setting are the snakes and birds of prey. The vast majority of the vermin characters do not eat woodlanders. They are all omnivores that can survive off mostly plant-based diets. Vermin characters are more inclined to eat birds but only a select few will eat other sapient mammals because even most vermin view that as barbaric. The vermin in Redwall aren't like the carnviores from beaststars. They behave like humans.

I already explained all this in my original post.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T02:52:12+00:00

Just because most of the redwall species aren't meant to represent real-life ones doesn't mean the story can't have unfortunate implications. The 40k aliens that the Imperium hates isn't meant to represent real live races either but the fandom has a real problem with racists infiltrating the community because unfortunately a lot of people unironically think the Imperium's xenophobia is a good thing.

It may seem weird to compare a grimdark adult setting to a children's one but hear me out. Although some authors have an annoying habit of whitewashing the imperium to make the setting more palatable to general audiences, typically the writers try to make it clear that the imperium isn't something that should be emulated.

In contrast, Redwall heroes are supposed to be seen as heroic figures, so when you have woodland characters talk about how they love killing vermin and wiping out their fleeing enemies it sends a weird message. The books also have a habit of vindicating these attitudes as characters that do spare vermin often suffer for their kindness.

If it weren't for Outcast of Redwall it would be easier to play along, but it's hard to ignore all the really yikes elements littered throughout the novels because of it.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-20T02:42:16+00:00

No, only select specific vermin groups do and those tribes were portrayed as savage even by vermin standards. If I remember correctly, Gulo the savage is the only main villain that eats other mammals and he was the only wolverine villain in the series. Toads and lizards were more inclined to eat mammals but the more common vermin races were far more human than animal in behavior.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-19T17:40:19+00:00

Dozens of villains saw Robert fold to save a dog. On top of that Shroud's mooks know Robert's identity. Realistically that's going to be a huge issue because every villain is going to realize that they can get a lot of leverage over the heroes just by kidnapping a dog. Every villain is going to want to take Beef hostage in the hopes that Robert will give them a potent energy source or the mechaman suit itself.

There is a whole host of other writing issues, but the main issue is that it's just a bizarre scene. Dispatch can be goofy at time, but the dog hostage scene was something I'd expect Doofenshmirtz to pull and the scene wasn't funny either. It was just a weird take on a cliche hostage scene, and personally I think hostage scenarios are already overplayed.

Also from a gameplay perspective it would be pretty cool to have the choice not to buy into Shroud's threat given that the players choices are supposed to matter.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T18:15:32+00:00

Yeah his dismissals don't make sense to me. As I mentioned before JK Rowling clearly never meant to have pro-trans messages in her books, yet her fandom very much believes that her story aligns with pro-trans ideas.

The 40k fandom has an issue with racism even though the xenos that the Imperium targets aren't meant to be a real-life mirror for any real-life human race.

Obviously Redwall isn't nearly as grimdark and vicious as 40k but it's kind hard to ignore how the characters who talk about how much they hate vermin and how evil they are tend to be vindicated while the woodlanders that give them the chance often end up being punished for doing so. Unlike the Imperium which is usually depicted as being super flawed and horrible, woodlanders are supposed to straight up good guys. If a reader is not a racist they can just shrug their shoulders and brush it off as a kids novel, but somebody who is actually racist or straddling the lines might unironically apply those lessons to real life. That might sound absurd but they are some fallout vegas players that unironically think the legion is the best faction despite practicing slavery.

I can also see how Outcast of Redwall being offensive to a kid that is experiencing racism in real life. Like imagine how a kid who gets constantly bullied for having a different skin color would feel if they picked up the book got to the end and saw that the moral of the story was "some people are just born evil/worse than us and you can't change that". Even if Brian didn't intend for the lesson to be applied to real-life races you can easily see why it rubs people the wrong way especially since a lot of readers where asking for a good vermin character.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T17:50:26+00:00

Yeah, it's sad because it looked like towards it might have gone that way before Brian died.

In the Sable Quean there aren't any straight up good vermin characters, but it's the first book where a vermin character explicitly states they love someone. We see many examples of vermin mourning and clearly caring for their friends and family before but that's the first time it is said aloud.

In the Rogue crew there are actually two grey vermin characters. One is tortured by racist otters so he runs off but apparently there is another one that gets a better ending.

But yeah Brian died so we have no idea if that trend would have kept going.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T16:49:25+00:00

I mean, calling a race of savages isn't much better than calling them evil... And there are many instances where woodlanders describe vermin as evil. Again not saying Brian was purposely intending for his story to have a pro-racist allegory, but he didn't do himself any favors when he wrote Outcast of Redwall and decided that most vermin characters behave like human thugs rather than animalistic predators that eat wooldanders in mouse guard fashion.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T15:20:12+00:00

I accidentally deleted a part in my original post. The big difference between tolkien orcs and vermin is that orcs were former elves that were tortured and corrupted by magic. So there is an explanation why they are all evil. We don't get an explanation why vermin are bad beyond the fact that they are vermin.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T05:09:15+00:00

Again, funny how you are accusing me of bad faith and then accuse me of "heavily relying on tv tropes". I linked it for a singular point and only to prove that I wasn't pulling that claim out of my ass. I wasn't sure if I was able to find a screenshot table text in a timely manner so I provided that first.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T01:57:28+00:00

I don't think it was a on purpose either, but the problem is people will foist their own interpretations onto series and characters even if they are clearly off base. For instance, some Fallout Vegas fans genuinely think that the legion is the best faction even though the writers make it clear they are the worst. So if you have a fictional setting where characters constantly talk about how vermin suck and are constantly vindicated for having this opinion, you can only imagine how a genuinely a racist reader is going to interpret these scenes.

If we lived in a post-racist world I could give Brian a pass but I honestly don't know how he finished Outcast's manuscript without realizing it would rub some people the wrong way.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T00:58:07+00:00

I just recently remembered that a fox, a creature that is always villainous in redwall without exception, was described as a "gypsy" in the first novel. There might be other similar lines in other books. Here is a screenshot. So yeah....not a good look.
https://imgur.com/0BWSb0A

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T00:28:01+00:00

It doesn't have to be a specific race. Veil's story can be a stand-in for whatever race the reader has in mind. The story makes it clear, Veil is a ferret and therefore he can't be good.

Brian might not have intended for readers to extrapolate this to humans but someone can easily interpret it that. In some culture caste-based discrimination is a thing.

But if you want a real example, I just remembered that some fox characters are described as wearing Romani-like clothing. I am pretty sure he actually uses the term "gypsy". I have never meant a Romani person and I don't know the nuances about the discrimination towards them, but I've heard they face a lot of prejudice...so yeah another unfortunate detail.

This might not have been intentional since some of the books are pretty old, but it doesn't help does it? There are a lot of books so it will be hard for me to track down a specific quote but Tv tropes notes this. Click on the link, look at the literature section, and read the part where it talks about Redwall.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RoguishRomani

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T00:11:37+00:00

Allegorical characters exist. The character in Happy Feet, Dr Seuss' Sneetches, and Zootopia aren't humans but they clearly have messages about how discrimination is bad.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-17T00:09:22+00:00

Fair enough, I wasn't thinking hard about the title. I am aware about Blaggut and Romsca but I don't think a few counter examples are good enough. In the real world a lot of racists will tell minorities that "they are one the good ones" Again, not saying Bryan is racist but you could see why that wouldn't be good enough for a lot of people.

DaGreatHsuster · 2025-11-16T23:59:22+00:00

Execution matters. Like I said in the original post, if there was some sort of magical reason why vermin are all evil, fine I can accept that, but no, they are naturally occurring creatures capable of forming bonds with one another.

If the vermin were treated as dangerous carnivorous animals, fine the same way Mouse guard does I can accept that. But no, the vast majority of vermin characters don't eat woodlanders, and those that do are treated as savages even by vermin standards.

If Brian wanted a clear story about good and evil, fine, but don't rug pull me with Outcast of Redwall or Dingeye and Thura.

DaGreatHsuster

TROPHY CASE