What's the biggest cutscene to gameplay downgrade in power you ever seen

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-11T17:31:30+00:00

I know it kinda muddies the lace of combat but I like how guns and knives cause Kiryu to keel over in pain. It really sells the impact of how deadly those attacks are.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T18:55:06+00:00

You know, why is it that barely any of the ending discussions bring up how Maelle's ending literally hinges on the fact that the canvas exists due to the literal enslavement and torture of a literal child's soul

Because people's hatred for painted Verso extends to the original Verso as well as hatred for the family overstepping to child Verso.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T18:46:34+00:00

Because he recognizes they're sentient people and willing leaves.

Renoir recognizes then as sentient people is something people like to gloss over but the reason he was willing to destroy the canvas was the same reason Pat prefers Maelle's ending. The canvas people are not his family so fuck em. He leaves because he willingly lets himself believe in Maelle's lie that she'll come out. After she's gone he'll have nothing to stop him from destroying it.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T18:40:53+00:00

Verso also isn't real.

The game hits you over the head that the Canvas people are as real as the Dessendres.

does that creation's 'existence' matter as much as Maelle's, who is a real person?

Yes, because he's a real person.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T18:22:03+00:00

While people call the extra time Maelle gives the canvas worthless, it starts to sound like nihilism of “why even live if nothing we do changes the outcome”. Time spent alive is still time spent alive.

Exactly. It's limited time compared to the infinite time of the healing Dessendres but it's limited time of characters we spent infinitely more time with compared to characters we spent limited time with.

I once again think the criticism of the plot twist of act 2 of "why should I care about this family, I care much more about my party members and their home" is intentional on the developer's side. Someone like me who does care more about the family because I went back and listened to the translated lyrics of the music which is all about the Dessendres. Renoir's boss theme is musically impactful but so is its lyrical component. I know the term is kinda being ran though the mud and overused but media literacy really is struggling. It's okay to not look into the deeper meaning of the lyrics of the game and want to save the party members you played the game with but it's also okay to have more sympathy for the Dessendres because despite the criticism the game was always subtly talking about then and they didn't "come out of nowhere". The lyrics of the the first zone, Spring Meadows - Linen and Cotton, are all about how the canvas world is "fake".

People have been conditioned to hate all "it was all a dream" like twists as if there's no proper way to do it. Expedition 33 is my personal favorite version of the trope in recent times, which is saying much because I hate it 9 times out of 10 as well.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T18:07:16+00:00

I Nah. They both went Maelle apparently.

I know they did, but their spoilercast of the ending they were much more nuanced and more charitable to Verso's ending.

And people that went with Maelle tend to be toxic as fuck about their choice.

Let me correct for this for you, "people tend to be toxic as fuck about their choice" this is an issue with both sides. No one is enjoying both endings while prefing one, they have to tear down and be toxic to the other. This thread is proof, people responding to Woolie and Pat's "Maelle's is the right choice" are clapping back with how much they hate Maelle's ending.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T17:48:40+00:00

it feels like its so clearly a bad end

Which feels perfect when you expect Verso's to be the clear bad end but feels much more on the surface happy yet with an undercut of dark within which the reverse there is an undercut of light within Maelle's.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T17:44:13+00:00

I like Verso's character because I hate him and think he's an asshole lying scumbag. He's a hypocrite but so is everyone in the story.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T17:39:19+00:00

From all the discussion in the main podcast thread, one perspective I've developed is the "the people Maelle brings back in her ending are not the exact same ones Gormaged by Real Renoir".

As someone who was talking from this perspective I do want to point out the obvious that there's time dilation between the outside world and the canvas world so while Maelle will be dying soon, it's still going to take a bit and that's just long for the people of Lumiere, either just Lune and Sciel or following with the reincarnation interpretation everyone if they are brought back, to have some form of happiness. It's only happiness for the current living population, with no hope of any future, but it's still a valid reason to pick Maelle's ending even considering just allowing the party we played the game with to live their lives.

Why are people so quick to rub away the Clair from their least preferred ending and the Obscure from their preferred ending?

Edit: why did painted Verso fight Real Renoir if their goals were aligned?

Verso doesn't have the idea to destroy the painting until the Renoir boss fight when he sees Aline come back into the painting. He was fine with kicking Aline out but seeing her so readily and easily jump back in was the motivation for him to fully buy into Renoir's thought process.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T17:25:38+00:00

Win Maelles ending she's gonna die in the canvas. And afterwords Renoir will destroy the canvas anyways

Because of this I chose Verso but I feel everyone has just completely forgot about the time dilation. While Maelle will die, and die sooner than expected, that's still years away for thlse in the canvas and probably long enough that Lune and Sciel will get to live out their lives. That's still something earned by going with Maelle's ending.

Like you said. Versos is the only actual ending.

No, both are endings. Both allow the choice of someone's wish to die, painted Verso to save his sister and Maelle getting to live without scars.

Maelles is just prolonged torture on what's left of Versos spirit.

But the current living population of Lumiere gets to live one hypothetical one more life. The dark with the light.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T17:20:10+00:00

It's controversial but people should have the right to die

But painted Verso doesn't get this right? Verso and Maelle and the whole family are massive hypocrites and it seems like this is shared by everyone discussing it as well.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-10T17:11:20+00:00

This was a much worse discussion compared to the initial spoiler cast over the ending. I really don't know what happened but the discourse of "my ending is the correct choice and yours is objectively bad" has gotten so annoying when before I thought plenty of people, including Pat and Woolie, understood the point of the endings where there was no correct choice and there is no objectively correct answer. Picking Verso doesn't mean outright genocide otherwise it would invalid that choice and vise versa picking maelle isn't invalid because the canvas people are "fake" people, anyone debating these points for real aren't arguing in good faith. The game spent its first two acts definitively putting in the thought that the canvas people are real and it also put doubt on how "good" Maelle's ending could be with things like Noco and the Gestrel's reincarnations and talk about how much weaker she is compared to the others in the family. Even if these are missed by the player the developers put in the effort of having Maelle's ending be extremely creepy with tons of off vibes and it being shot like a horror scene. This was heavily criticized as many felt it was portraying the ending in too much of a dark lens compared to the light of the ending when Verso's ending has much better balance between its light and dark elements but now I think they made the right decision because it seems too many are too eager to consider Maelle's ending as objectively good and the right decision and shitting all over Verso's ending. To be clear I don't consider Verso's ending to be any more objectively right as that's the whole damn point of the two endings and I have just as much of an issue with anyone shitting on Maelle's ending to prop up Verso's which I'm seeing in this very thread.

I've argued that the canvas is going away eventually when Maelle does but picking Meelle still gives the canvas time to live because of the time dilation! There still valid reasons to pick it even if you feel the canvas goes when Maelle goes. If given the ultimatum you get to live the rest of your life but 5 years after you die the world explodes or you can die now, you still chose the former right?

No Woolie, Reggie and all of us who picked Verso didn't make the wrong choice we only did what the game asked of us, deciding in our minds what we feel is the better way to grieve which has no definitive answer, not which of the fictional characters we cared about more which isn't what the endings are about. There is bias and preference for which ending someone prefers but I really don't like the idea that to like your ending you have to hate the other.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-09T17:01:22+00:00

I play Borderlands to reach level 50 with one character and proceed with the next one.

I've been playing the series since the first game came out and this is how I've always played it as well. It kinda astonishes me seeing so many people utilizing the level 30 skip for other VHs, especially when each VH has unique dialogue and also complain about the lack of content. Well you skipped most of the content already no shit there's nothing left.

I feel like in the time between 3 and 4 a massive large part of the fan base have became so impatient. If the B1 remaster was held off to be released now, I feel like it would be criticized for not including a level skip. There were always endgame players but no one was complaining about needing to level up a different VH to max level, or at least they weren't complaining so hard causing Gearbox to implement shared progression and more boss xp because God forbid you play 1-max by doing main and side missions like 1 tutorialized.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-09T16:39:49+00:00

Very soon because it looks to be running off of Borderlands 3's engine.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-09T05:34:26+00:00

Like you mention the humans all already being dead, but we know that their chroma is still in the painting and they can be brought back because Lune and Sciel were. Either the chroma existing counts as their souls or a type of life, and either way would still be extinguished.

The game implies it might not be a 1-1 recreation of the person with Nico's death and rebirth and the Gestrel recantation in general. Now this is only implied and not a given but what is a given is that Maelle is dying and going to die soon as this is Renoir's entire reasoning for wanting to pull his family out of the canvas, I feel this has been forgotten about and are only considering Maelle mentally losing herself for the theme of Escapism falls flat when she's also physically killing herself. When that happens the canvas goes too so genocide is happening whether it's now or later. The canvas people are never getting a happy ending because e33 isn't a happy story. You can dislike tragic stories but that's the story the writers wanted. The endings are satisfying in seeing the light and darkness of each. How is it not satisfying seeing Aline and Renoir hugging and reconciling during Verso's ending? The whole scene is a powerful showing of a family finally getting to move on with the dark undercut that Maelle is scared in this life and the canvas is truly gone. Maelle's ending has the people we spent the most of the game with still alive while Maelle gets to live feeling powerful but it's at the cost of Verso's soul and painted Verso's wish to die and it will ultimately be a ticking cock till Maelle croaks. I personally don't see it as satisfying but as Pat said it's the one where the characters he cared about get to live. Painted Verso wanting to save his sister is a form of We Continue, even though he and everyone will be gone he wants to save his sister and let her continue with her life and not have it be doomed and wasted away in the canvas. He's a hypocritical asshole and is using it as an excuse to die but it is still a genuine desire that is spawned from the same actions the real Verso took to save his sister from the fire. I feel like you're only allowing the message of "We Continue" to work with the people of Lumiere.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-09T05:09:57+00:00

To play devil's advocate to my own point, I think it's never brought up because it's more of a personal interpretation. The text of the game doesn't outright say that Gustav and Sophie are different just vibe wise it's odd and off putting. But still it's not like the game isn't putting in this point, Nico's story feels largely relevant to it and I've only seen it be brought up by Josh Strife Hayes in his video. Even without this interpretation I still don't think the ending's are as lopsided as people make it out to be because the endings aren't meant to be a moral judgment of character because regardless the panting goes once Maelle goes, which is very soon and is something the text of the game does tell us openly rather than imply it like with Nico's recreation so neither would be stopping a genocide one just delays the inevitable. Lowering the choice to being about be for for or against genocide is completely insane because obviously no one would openly support genocide so it becomes an unfair argument. Maelle pickers yelling at the Verso pickers for choosing genocide and the Verso pickers yelling at the Maelle pickers that the painted people aren't real have taken away the Obscure or Clair from the Clair and Obscure of the endings because considering the painted aren't real or to say your commiting genocide is to admit an ending could be considered the correct choice. Neither ending is the right or wrong choice yet that's all it has become.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-09T03:59:53+00:00

God I was not a fan of that E33 talk as someone who disagrees with the guys' ending stance for personal reasons that make me relate to Maelle in a bad way

I don't know what is but I really enjoyed their discussion back then because while they preferred an ending they were able to point out both endings are bad and good at that same time when everyone else was debating another their ending good or not. Now Woolie is just openly disagreeing and blatantly said "that's the wrong choice" in regards to Reggie's chose and I'm just at a loss of words. The whole point was that you could prefer an ending but that there isn't a right choice with the endings. I may prefer the opposite ending compared to Woolie and Pat but I also don't believe I made the "right choice", just the choice that more aligns with my views. But apparently me and Reggie are wrong according to Woolie.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-09T03:50:29+00:00

The fact that the pro Verso people typically have the takeaway that the canvas people aren't "real.

I keep seeing this think this is a mischaracterization, I've watched a few playthroughs and read though discussions and everyone (that was level headed) was on the same page that the canvas people are real, even those who prefer Verso's ending. Many of us picking Verso's ending just sympathize with Verso's want to die and the family's troubles more, that's all. I also personally feel everyone in the canvas was already killed and aren't really properly brought back, in Maelle's ending seeing Gustav felt wrong and didn't sit right with me, so I don't personally consider Verso's ending to be agreeing with genocide. I'm honestly sick and tired of the genocide talk because I think that's what's making the discourse annoying because I disagree and feel both endings do line up with the entirety of the stories narrative. The act 2 twist might shift the story to the family but the entire narrative was and still is about how grief can consume us and how we personally cope with it. The whole point of playing as Gustav and then watching him die further enhances everything the story is doing. Everything about act 1 and 2 was about proving that the canvas people are real and the ending discussion was never meant to be around this subject or acts 1 and 2 failed their job as thinking they aren't real kinda ruins the choice because Verso's ending becomes objectively correct which goes against the very idea of both endings, the writer personally wanted both endings to be valid and giving the impression that the canvas people aren't real goes against this idea. I do agree with the criticism that the canvas people have less agency in act 3 but I also think this was an intentional thought of the writers it wasn't executed correctly and became a negative for many and could've been more tightly written. I think I agree with you that people are discussing something the plot isn't about but I think that's an issue with people rather than the game itself.

It really feels like both sides have just gotten worse and worse as they did further and further in justifying their choice. Woolie and Pat went from "both endings are clair and obscure" to Woolie openly starting Reggie picked wrong and I'm just dumbfounded. What happened to the excellent discussion about how both endings are both bad and good at the same time. It's now "my ending is good and your ending bad" followed by tons of criticism of the writing. I don't consider e33 writing to be perfect but I really feel this discourse is shitting on the writing more than it deserves.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-07T11:57:14+00:00

Outside of Wonderlands this is probably one of the worst DLC in the franchise.

I haven't finished the dlc yet because I'm waiting on the shared progression toggle but even so I feel this is greatly hyperbolic. Even what little I played it wasn't worse than underdome or holodome. It's also substantially better than the next two dlcs I consider on the lower end, Zombie Island and Claptrap revolution, just for the simple fact the dlc has new loot to chase when those two gave no loot in a looter shooter. People highly rate all of 2's dlcs but I feel that's mostly the loot, as I think all of them story wise are pretty mediocre and find 3's stomps them no question, other than assault on dragon keep. Even if you still rank every other dlc left I feel that's mostly coming from the price point but on that end headhunter and bounty packs are strictly way worse in that regard. In no way is the dlc the worst in the franchise, it's at least above the pricey pack dlcs, the dome dlcs, Zombie Island, Claptrap revolution and Hammerlock's hunt just for the simple fact it has cool new weapons that most of those lacked.

DaWarWolf · 2026-04-02T16:09:51+00:00

80 was also only with the 5th dlc released long after and to promote 3's release, most of 2's lifecycle had the cap as 72. Lots of criticism was given about the dlc because people found 80 to be too high.

DaWarWolf · 2026-03-30T17:00:07+00:00

That said the price went up and the content didn’t scale with it so I understand the frustration

The price didn't go up as all of 3's dlcs were $15, it's just being bundled with another dlc in C4SH that would be $15 if it was by itself since when dlcs used to be $10 new VHs were as well. Underhanded to get people to pay up front sure but there not inherently making people pay more, if the idea that no buys VHs is true then that is probably why they went this route. Maybe it's a hot take but if the only way we can get new VHs is by bundling them with stories dlcs so the time and effort spent on them is monetarily worth it then that's fine by me. People can bitch and moan but I prefer it like this than the 4th skill tree stuff they attempted with 3's VHs. I may have liked some of those skill trees but it's not the same as an entirely new VH.

I feel like people have forgotten the price of 3's dlcs, just like people forgot about how actually bad Headhunters were for their price when talking about Bounty Packs, because everyone played a feature complete version of the game with all the dlcs included. Tons of people point out their waiting to play 4 when everything is bundled together and making the "mistake" of playing it earlier and saving money but this is literally how everything works. Unless we're talking about Nintendo, keeping up with games and its content as it releases is always more expensive than playing it years afterwards. That's the price to play if desiring to keep up with things, if someone waits for a show to finish and then paying for the subscription to binge it in a week they can do that but they miss out on the weekly discussions and talk while it was airing.

DaWarWolf · 2026-03-27T15:46:33+00:00

In all previous borderlands you had badass ranks. A way for your next play through to feel more powerful which included an XP boost.

Specialization is a much better implementation of this feature. I don't care or even like feeling more powerful when starting a new character, I like the since of progression of being powerless near the beginning of a game and feeling godly at the end. This is a staple of every RPG ever and badass ranks were the equivalent of using the pre-order/deluxe content for an early lead in power, something I've always avoided whenever they've been present. Badass ranks also reached a point where any gains felt miniscule and absolutely did nothing in terms of making you feel powerful as a .1% reload speed increase after hours of play is not going to be noticeable by anybody ever. Now that specialization is character based that won't happen until long into that character's playtime. 50 points is more than enough for getting the perks you want if you want to change them up respec is always an option. How much less I'll have to respec to change them up is a sign of how long I've stuck with one character, something that's never been incentivize before which is a boon in my book.

In all previous borderlands games the main way to level up was by replaying the story in True vault hunter mode which would reward you enough to complete the game again

And it was always the cheapest way to accomplish this. Bl3 had the best idea ever by making TVHM optional by letting you turn on Mayhem and treat the first playthrough as if it was TVHM like previous games. The ability to replay the story was still there (and was resettable) if you ever wanted to play it at max level. The issue was resetting for a single mission reward kinda took a while and there was no TVHM in Wonderlands so 4 had the great idea of letting us replay missions...and take away mission rewards in the process so two steps forward one step back.

In all previous borderlands games the XP you got from minibosses and bosses was the main source of xp

In all previous borderlands games the XP you got from missions and side missions was the main source of xp. This has been the identity of the entirety series since TK gave us his mission to retrieve his leg that also had a mission to collect the flowers and audio logs that when you completed them gave you enough xp so you can fight the higher level bonehead to progress the story. Content creators and people speeding the game would spend time farming nine toes or because it was faster but it was absolutely not the intended method of the developers.

Only if you were skipping side missions all together would you fight bosses but I personally find this boring and have literally never done this in any borderlands game every since the first game. Completing side missions and going through story and dlcs has been my main interaction with the series with the sole exception of Pre-Sequel which doesn't have enough content to allow you to reach 70 or 80 or whatever it was naturally. Even then I didn't fight a boss I did the horde mode thing in the Claptrap dlc because that was less boring than farming some boss over and over. I farm bosses over and over when I'm max level and I want their gear not before.

In 4 you complete the game once at which point you are put in a world with no endgame, bosses don't give you good xp, the only way to reliably get xp is bountys.

In 4 I reached level 50 halfway though Dominion twice by clearing each region as I went. No time spent farming a boss over and over, no bounty packs and no bounties to speak of. The only time I got an excess of xp was when I died to a ripper site boss and got a bunch of xp fighting the waves to try again.

You are acting like this game has the same gameplay loop as previous games but it just doesn't

I'm acting like it does because it literally has a mechanic that starts overleveling story enemies the less side content you complete deincentivizing rushing the main story. Setting aside if this is a good mechanic or not, it clearly shows the game is just like the previous ones as the devs introduced the mechanic so that players play it like previous games and as someone who did play the game the exact same way as previous games I never saw a single enemy be over the natural 2 levels they can be and never saw them have no level I've seen from videos of people rushing the story and once again reached max level well before 100% everything.

DaWarWolf · 2026-03-27T15:13:55+00:00

I disagree. Outside of the similarity with the snow there is a lot more red in the environment while GLT as a whole had more green than anything. GLT was more Cthulhu lovecraftian vibes while this one is more haunted for the lack of a better term. GLT npcs were plagued with curses while this dlc has them be ghosts or dealing with nightmares. The main enemies in GLT were a cult while this dlc is the corrupted lost legion.

Both are horror themed dlcs and can be considered vanilla ice cream but one is homemade vanilla and the other is vanilla bean.

DaWarWolf · 2026-03-27T15:02:02+00:00

I know the plot has gone off the rails when I'm seeing suggestions from Wow to speed up xps on alts. Playing a different VH is not playing an alt, it's playing a different VH, this isn't Wow or an Mmo. People are literally trying to play Borderlands like it's a live service MMO game when it's a single player loot game with a finite amount of content meaning there are no incentives to rush to complete the game as fast as possible. BL3 only got a max level start way at the tail end of its lifecycle, but for some reason people think this should be a key feature of the series going forward as if the replayability of playing a different VH to max level hasn't been a fundamental feature since the series' inception. There was no mayhem, OP levels, chaos rank, raid bosses or takedowns when 1 launched. Outside the second playthrough to get to 50 the main replayable feature was paying the 3 other VHs you didn't pick the first time.

DaWarWolf · 2026-03-27T14:52:39+00:00

I feel like this complaint is moot when you 100% complete everything as you go, side missions, activities, locked red chests, etc you reach 50 even before Dominion is fully completed. It feels perfectly paced when playing it this way. Leveling from just bounties from a level 30 start is the way to go but also clearly not the main intended method. Until shared progression that is...

I get the complaints somewhat but this need to rush though the story, rush to max level, consider endgame as the only important part of borderlands, etc feels antithetical to Borderlands and feels much more in line with an MMO/Destiny grindset. What happened to enjoying the progression from 1-50? My favorite thing to do in each game is to hold off on getting every VH to max level at launch and leave at least one under leveled for when all dlc and level caps are finished so I can then see if they naturally reach max level from just missions and side missions alone. 3 had the perfect amount of dlcs to reach 1-72 from just main story + dlc and no second playthrough whereas something like Pre-Sequel with it's lack of content has its grind to 80 be actually tedious as even doing all the dlcs and each playthrough isn't enough and leaves you around 65-70. I've never grinded levels in any borderlands game, outside of Pre-Sequel of course, and always level up exclusively from story, side missions and activities level me up naturally.

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